No, I think their rationale is different from Gnosticism.
In Islam (broadly speaking) there is a trend toward seeing all prophets as spiritually perfect, and as being rewarded and protected by God for that. (Thus the Muslim Abraham never tries to bargain God down regarding Sodom and Gomorrah for example.)
Jesus in some ways is regarded as an even better prophet than Mohammad, though Mohammad has other superiorities obviously.
So for Jesus to have actually died on the cross, would be tantamount (in Muslim theology broadly speaking) to saying God allowed a super-faithful prophet of His to die a horrible torturous shameful death, much moreso a death ‘cursed by God’. That’s a serious contradiction to them: Jesus should have been better rewarded and protected than that. The crucifixion would mean either that Jesus was a false prophet (not allowed by Muslim theological tradition) or that God is unfaithful to those who are most faithful to Him (which is even worse).
On the other hand, had Jesus truly been resurrected from the grave, He would be clearly superior to Mohammad (not even counting the topic of Jesus’ divinity), and that would undermine Mohammad’s whole claim to having the superior and final revelations, correcting and superseding the claims of Jews and Christians.
This is why Christian missionaries and apologists to Muslims concentrate on the crucifixion: getting them to accept this literally historically happened, opens the door to them accepting the Christian scripture testimony about what happened after Jesus’ death, and also Christian testimony about what Christ taught concerning Himself. If the first Christians were willing to be so honest about the shame of the cross, especially in a time and place where that increased the chances of being executed themselves as rebels, that increases the chance the Gospel authors were accurately reporting what Jesus taught.
(I have no experience as an apologist to Muslims myself, but I understand the principles involved from occasionally studying the topic. Putting those principles into practice can be very difficult.)
Of course Jason you are absolutely right – and I’d completely overstated the case. As I understand things, from my reading last summer, certainly some uneducated Mullahs do present Jesus’ death in terms of myths borrowed from popular Gnosticism – namely that either Simon of Cyrene or Judas Iscariot died as a substitute on the cross. However this is not mainstream Islam which has a problem with a major Prophet of God being allowed by God to die a shameful death (because God in mainstream Islam is triumphant and all powerful).
As a non expert I’ve gathered that the Surah in the Quran that refers to the crucifixion simply states that those who crucified Jesus thought they had killed him, but they were arrogant in thinking so, and in boasting thus, because God took his Prophet Isa and did not let him die. I know that some educated Muslims are prepared to see this as a mystery that opens them up to sympathy with the Christian belief in resurrection. I also understand that in Shia Muslim – which has a place for humiliation and failure because of the martyrdom of their central saint Hussein at Kerbala – the problems of explaining how God becomes vulnerable is not as difficult as it is with Sunni Muslims.
And yes – this is what Islam lacks, the vulnerable God incarnate and the Sufis of Islam have often tired to compensate for this lack in their veneration of Jesus/Isa as the chief of the prophets and the greatest lover of God.
It’s exactly a year ago that I and others engaged in two sided monologues on site with fellow members whose whole identity as Christian Universalists seemed to be centred on scapegopating Muslims. I was so worried about this for the good health of our site. One thing I’m sure of – these attitudes have no place in or faith and never have been a part of historic universalism. At that time I read two other books by Steve Bell – who I mentioned in an earlier post; his presentation of the gospel to Muslims is a loving attempt to combine the great commission with the great command to ‘love or neighbours’ (and enemies). His presentation of the Gospel for Muslins is based in real respect and knowledge of Islamic faith and culture and he sees the hounour/shame emphasis in Islamic culture as something that the Gospel of Christ can address, just as it addressed the honour/shame culture of first century Judaism. Drew recommended his books to me and as well as ‘Between Naivety and Hostility, I’d also recommend
Grace for Muslims and
The Gospel for Muslims
And here is some Muslim universalist exegesis (at least the preliminary questions) used by various schools of Sufism, the Amaddiya and other schools within Islam past and present:
(from the Introduction to ‘Islam and the Fate of Others’, p.15 by Mohammad Hasan Khalil)
…
Of the Classical authors of Islam
Ghazali – although he taught that fear of hell was a virtue – also taught that most of humanity will be saved. God’s mercy will cover the unreached and those sincere non-Muslims who actively investigate the message after having been properly exposed to it. Only a small minority, iniquitous unbelievers, should expect everlasting torment. Indeed in his exposition of the divine names ‘The most Compassionate, he Caring’ he seems to leave the door open for universalism –
‘Never doubt that God is the most merciful of the merciful or that ‘His mercy outstrips his wrath’ and never doubt that one who intends evil for the sake of evil and not for the sake of good is undeserving of the name of mercy. Beneath all this lies a secret whose divulgence the revealed law prohibits, so be content with prayer and do not expect that it to be divulged
According to the ‘Greatest Sheikh’ of Sufism – Ibn Arabi, because Allah is a God of overwhelming mercy and love, He excuses those non-Muslims who do not recognise the message for what it is, not to mention those who have never encountered it. Yet even the wicked, those who can see the path of perfection but refuse to take it, will be delivered from the pain and anguish of the Fire – without having to move an inch. The inhabitants of Hell may be forever veiled for God, but they will find both pleasure and contentment where most would least expect it.
According to Ibn Tamiyya the gates of hell are lose. Anyone who has encountered the message is destined for the fire – because the message should be inherently convincing to the sincere. But the gates of hell are so lose that all those inside will eventually make their way out. Mercy will triumph over wrath and all humanity will one day walk in the Garden.
Rida – a more recent authority – held that all people will be judged according to what they know to be good and true. But even those who chose evil will all likely be restored to goodness and saved from the depths of hell
Of course Islam has is many defenders of ECT (particularly amongst the Islamists)and even defenders of annihilationism – and the way in which Islamic thinkers discuss eschatology is from an Islamic perspective. To them Islam is the true religion (or the truest religion) and the concern of thinking through eschatology is about who a God who is merciful can be compassionate to non-Muslims. But I think this concern is evidence of natural revelation at work in Islam. Muslims are human – the revelation of our solidarity as human beings created in the image of God and of the God who wishes to save and restores and is able and willing to do is present – however dimly - certainly in Muslims universalism. And I reflect that George de Benneville one of the fathers of modern universalism had his first conversion experience to universalism when observing Moorish sailors in Algiers caring for one of their wounded ship mates with tender concern. They showed love which put him to shame – so he realised God also loved them and his view of God’s love had been too limited (and he was only twelve when he had this revelation).
Oh and the last book I found very helpful last year was ‘The Fear of Barbarians’ by Tzvetan Todorov. I’d come across him because he wrote a wonderful little book ‘The Fragility of Goodness’ analysing why the Jews were protected form Nazi persecution in Bulgaria during the war - when they were not protected elsewhere by the entire population apart from in Sweden. He brings all of his acumen to the theme of how to think outside of the ‘terrible simplifiers’ that are often brought to the debate about Islam and the West that run the risk of producing an evil worse than the evil that we initially feared.
Well they do exist - and I’ve met a couple of Sufi Muslims who are universalists. My close friend who is a Muslim verges towards ECT but manages to smuggle me and her other English friends into her heaven with a dash of eschatological agnosticism - but she’s a Quran alone Muslim - thinks the Hadith were invented by Satan and does not know the classical authors And do I witness to her about the God of vulnerable love made flesh? - yes of course I do, and I pray for my friend with good confidence and courage (she’s a real sweetheart and she’s been through such a lot - and has experienced all that is worst in her culture).
There were plenty of universalist Muslims in Iran - certainly among the Sufi orders (Hafiz the classical Sufi is a national poet - a bit like Shakespeare is here). However, Khomeini had many of their leaders executed. But you started the conversation and it did sound like you’ve met some Shia Muslims with universalist type beliefs - for them God is in the end the All Merciful (which is why I joined in
The idea that Muhammad, at least in the Medinan Surahs of the Quran, was addressing a barbarous and savage people in the Pagan Arabs has not been lost on classical Muslim commentators I understand. Hence they often relativize the hell passages by appealing to the Beautiful Names of God. I take Muslims as I find them - and I have absolutely no time for Islamists, but feel passionately that we need to respond to Islamists firmly, very firmly, but wisely; and our perception of the extremists should never lead us to hate in the name of Christ the Hen. I hope and pray for better times in Iran - they are a proud people with an ancient Persian as well as a Shia Muslim identity.
Back in the early days of internet blogging, I wrote a two-part fable (compiling a number of parables from Christ), where in the climactic action the Jews and Muslims team up with the Christians to attack Satan, distracting him with a combined frontal assault while the Christians are busy rescuing people around his flank – because he thought he had managed to sow so much discord between them they’d never think to team up together against him. WRONG!
I’m sure that came from my annoyance at the Left Behind novel series proposing with complete seriousness that every Muslim on the planet would naturally of course team up with the Antichrist. OBVIOUSLY THE MUSLIMS WOULD BE THE LAST PEOPLE TO TEAM UP WITH A MILITANTLY AGGRESSIVE RELIGIOUS PLURALIST TRYING TO SUBSTITUTE HIMSELF FOR ALLAH!
I could imagine that Muhammad had no universalism in mind (don’t forget he was an analphabet) but that the ambiguity of the Arab language allows an universalist interpretation.
The Muslim god appears fickle and can do whatever it pleases him, as far I can judge the doctrine of hell (who goes there and for how long) in Islam is far less strict than in “traditional Christianity” where non-christians have no chance to espace everlasting hell at all.
I asked once a Turkish Jehovah Witness and former Muslim about his belief in hell prior and he told me that he, and also his family did not actually believe in it.
Hi Sven - it’s been a long time and nice to hear you again old chum -
Yes the Islamic conception of God as absolutely transcendent easily lapses into arbitrariness – and some would make comparisons here with five point Calvinism. Islam also shares a stress on predestination with Calvinism (although, as with the various types of Calvinism on the point system, a different weight and interpretation is given to predestination in different forms of Islam).
I think in this conversation I’d also want to stress that many Muslims do believe in ECT – indeed I’ve seen a audience questions session on an Islamic Channel in which a firebrand preacher is asked by an anxious audience member whether Mother Teresa of Calcutta burns for eternity in hell despite all the loving kindness that she did. He answers unequivocally ‘Yes’ – it doesn’t matter what good she did. Her works are filthy rags and she was not a Muslim so she will burn forever in hell. Now I happen to have seen a parallel conversation with parallel answers given somewhere in a parallel Christian universe.
The Muslims that I read of who also believe in the salvation of all people tend to be the more open ones, the more compassionate ones, and the more tolerant ones – that’s all I can say. And of course I think you would share the Christian Gospel differently with a Muslim Universalist than with an Islamist.
If you want to make a discernment between the beliefs of different Muslims who happen to be universalists personally I’d keep my ears perked up to those who stress UR as simply an act of Mercy (and mercy can be the arbitrary whim of a tyrant simply to have mercy rather than exercise wrath) and those who stress that UR accords with God’s loving kindness and concern for his ‘friends’.
well about after life, they believe like the first post i posted here, the problem is that after resurrection,
they believe the torment will be forever just like traditional Churches
Ah I see - well that wasn’t clear from your post Eric. So in other words the Muslims you spoke to/know are not universalists. That makes sense now. However - that’s not true of all Muslims
I think people who’ve been around on this site a bit know why I’ve joined in here Eric – and why I’m anxious; it’s just that there are sections in the Christian West who demonise all Muslims. It’s happened on site here a couple of times; so I’m just so anxious that people be clear and specific and loving kind when discussing Muslims - and don’t mince their words when condemning Islamic fundamentalism. I’m actually very pleased with how this thread has gone compared to previous ones; and it’s great having someone who has Muslim neighbours on this site. I’d get a bit worried if the anecdotal stuff continued for too long however because it’s very hot in the UK and parts of America and the rioters might come out to play – and that includes all of us, me and all .
although this man didn’t find no verse about grave punishment in the first link,
but after resurrection, for punishment they have the word FOREVER quran.com/43/74
I want to say some of them believe there is no punishment after death, and punishment after resurrection will be forever,
and some believe there is A punishment after death(my first post), and punishment after resurrection will be forever,
That’s one website by one individual - I haven’t the time now but will check and see who s/he represents (it’s certainly not Muslims who have universalist beliefs obviously). See you old chum -
Dick
P.S. It looks like a ‘Quran alone’ site - simplistic, fundamentalist
P.P.S. I’m a bit frustrated that James, Cindy and Sherman have been speaking at cross purposes with you because of your first post - they responded warmly to what you said - but that the ball game has changed three days later . But I guess it could be language and culture thing and missed signals on all sides
P.P.P.S. On reflection I do feel uneasy however. I engaged the thread you started that seemed to be about Muslims universalists and have contributed for this reason. Now it turns out that it is not about the varied, minority tradition of Muslim universalism I think I’ll go on to another thread for discussion about something very different.
James this suggests to me that the Muslims Eric speaks to are not universalist after all(and I complety believe him on this is it is so) -
Some believe that after death there is no punishment - a bit like Christians soul sleepers - but after the resurrection the wicked will be tortured for all ages.
Others believe there is both a punishment after death - which can be purgatorial - but also ECT after the resurrection for the wicked (and non-Muslims?)
Its’ because we were only told the first bit about punishment after death that we believed the thread to be about universalism. IS that right Eric? And sorry to be so ill tempered. I take it back - but we have been talking at cross purposes if I’ve understood you correctly
Dick, you helped me a lot, thank you, i believe in UR not in eternal hell, i should research more about Muslim universalists, its new to me, I know what your’re saying, don’t worry
and you don’t know one thing, here they convince me to fast for ramaddan,
teach me law of man, instead i’m teaching them law of love, but unfortunately they don’t understand what i’m saying,
because they don’t believe in Jesus like the way we believe him
And do I witness to her about the God of vulnerable love made flesh? - yes of course I do, and I pray for my friend with good confidence and courage (she’s a real sweetheart and she’s been through such a lot - and has experienced all that is worst in her culture).
Well said.
. But I guess it could be language and culture thing and missed signals on all sides 
i am confused
