If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide


#1

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven, then infanticide saves infants from any chance of growing up & going to endless torments or annihilation.

Should a loving parent, therefore, kill their infants before they reach an age at which God would hold them accountable?

"Evangelicals are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.

"Some, who believe in God’s sovereign election of the “few,” also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, “there are babies a span long in hell.”

"Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It’s true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.

"A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in a bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.

"The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if Arminianism is right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.

"Apparently, many Christians believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this the “age of accountability.”

"If I believed this nonsense I would take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and, before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn’t matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?

"Don’t try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong (“thou shalt not kill”). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the eternal salvation of the babies. If Arminianism is right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of “saving souls.” Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life revelling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.

"Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save every one of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say, "I have saved myself from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God’s provision. God will get all of the glory for everyone’s salvation.

"The important issue never should be “what is right or what is wrong.” The only really important issue is, “What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?” The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my Dad often says, “That’s what makes Him God!” "

tentmaker.org/tracts/Jones1.html


How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?
#2

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” " (Jn.3:3)

Babies who died weren’t born of the Spirit in their mortal life. They can’t enter the kingdom of God till they are born of the Spirit.

“Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.” (Jn.3:6).Babies were born of the flesh, and died without being born of the Spirit.

If there is no salvation (being born again) after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then wouldn’t it be a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of endless hell? Wouldn’t it be doing them a favor to have an abortion? Clearly that can’t be true.

Evidently babies who die are not immediately forced into heaven without a choice and without being first saved or born of the Spirit.

Therefore, though many deny it is possible, there must be after death salvation.

Some other Scriptures to consider re infants who die as such:

“The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.” (Jn.1:9)

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (Jn.12:32)

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” (Rev.21:7).

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev.21:27)


#3

Do you believe in “irresistible grace”?


#4

From my view (though you didn’t ask me personally) I totally believe in Fulfilled Grace, or Universal reconciliation or as some say ‘complete grace’ :smiley:

I’ll elaborate on it if you want :laughing: qaz, hope you had a good Thanksgiving!


#5

Sure MM, you can elaborate.


#6

Origen, can you explain “irresistible grace”? If it’s a tool God can use to save people, it would seem most loving for God to use it as soon as possible (the moment a person dies?). Do you think God torments people for a while in the afterlife before unleashing irresistible grace on them?


#7

Babies have faith. This is why Christ tells us unless you become like children and humble yourself you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

A humble, unpretentious faith is a “childlike faith.” When someone awakens spiritually they see the world and it’s beauty in a childlike way with childlike wonder and joy.

God alone is God. He is the unique giver of life and He can take life. He’s the infinite, self-sufficient, all-knowing one. As God He has rights a prerogatives that His creatures don’t. He sees all of reality past, present, and future with His infinite wisdom and knowledge. We are finite and limited. He hasn’t given us the right to take a babies life. He’s the Creator and we are the creatures. He’s in a category all by Himself.


#8

Matthew 19:14, speaks of “little children”, not babies (born or preborn).

The apostle Paul, & earlier in Matthew Jesus, puts the statement of Mt.19:14 in proper perspective:

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Matthew 18:3
“Truly I tell you,” He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

“In Mark and Luke it is said he immediately added, “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter therein.” Whosoever shall not be humble, unambitious, and docile, shall not be a true follower of Christ or a member of his kingdom. Of such as these - that is, of persons with such tempers as these - is the church to be composed. He does not say of those infants, but of such persons as resemble them, or are like them in temper, is the kingdom of heaven made up. As emblematic, therefore, of what his own followers were to be, and as having traits of character so strongly resembling what he required in his followers…”

“…All are fallen; all have, a tendency to sin, and none but Jesus can save them. Little children, too…”

“… it does not appear to be the design of this passage to teach that all infants will be saved. It means simply that they should be suffered to be brought to Christ as amiable, lovely, and uncorrupted by the world; as having traits of mind resembling those among real Christians; and as themselves needing his blessing.”

“…for of such is the kingdom of heaven; that is, as the Syriac renders it, “who are as these” or as the Persic version, rather paraphrasing than translating, renders it, “who have been humble as these little children”: and it is as if our Lord should say, do not drive away these children from my person and presence; they are lively emblems of the proper subjects of a Gospel church state, and of such that shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: by these I may instruct and point out to you, what converted persons should be, who have a place in my church below, and expect to enter into my kingdom and glory above; that they are, or ought to be, like such children, harmless and inoffensive; free from rancour and malice, meek, modest, and humble; without pride, self-conceit, and ambitious views, and desires of grandeur and superiority.”

biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/19-14.htm

As to babies & little children entering the Kingdom of God:

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” " (Jn.3:3)

Babies who died weren’t born of the Spirit in their mortal life. They can’t enter the kingdom of God till they are born of the Spirit.

“Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.” (Jn.3:6).Babies were born of the flesh, and died without being born of the Spirit.

If there is no salvation (being born again) after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then wouldn’t it be a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of endless hell? Wouldn’t it be doing them a favor to have an abortion? Clearly that can’t be true.

Evidently babies who die are not immediately forced into heaven without a choice and without being first saved or born of the Spirit.

Therefore, though many deny it is possible, there must be after death salvation.

Some other Scriptures to consider re infants who die as such:

“The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.” (Jn.1:9)

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (Jn.12:32)

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” (Rev.21:7).

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev.21:27)

christianforums.com/threads … n.8037317/


#9

Do demon possessed babies and children who die go to heaven with the demons still inside them.

Or do they need to be saved after death from these demons before they are allowed into heaven.


#10

If that were true, then babies would go to hell, since they were not “born again” (Jn.3:3-8). Fortunately it’s false.

Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh (e.g. new born babies) & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And He said one MUST be “born again” of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-8). No exceptions are given. Nowhere does He say His words apply only to the living & after death there is another way, a different principle. He doesn’t say babies who died as such will be allowed into the Kingdom without being born of the Spirit. And since babies will be allowed to enter, once they receive the new birth of the Spirit, there is after life salvation.

Do you suppose babies who died will be forced into heaven without their consent of free will & remain in those little bodies (about 3 inches high & up) & minds on the level of an animal (or less) for all eternity? And being forced to confess Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:9-11) and worship God (Rev.5:13) without even knowing what they are talking about? And this will glorify God?

[BTW, Scripture says the saved will confess Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:9-11) to the glory of God the Father. And that no one can do this except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:3).]

Or do you think it more reasonable & likely that Love Omnipotent will after their death bring these babies bodies & minds to a level of maturity so they can understand the gospel and make a free will choice between Jesus or Satan? And like in this life many will choose Jesus and many will reject Him. In which case there is after death salvation for the unsaved.


#11

[size=150]Origen… are you actually having THIS conversation with “BobRyan, post: 72130614, member: 235244 wrote:” on another forum — if so can you post a link? OR, are you simply cut-n’-pasting these various quotes so you can converse with yourself?[/size]


#12

Earlier in this thread i already posted a link to the topic.

Here is another to that topic & the particular post in it that you refer to:

christianforums.com/threads … t-72132138


#13

So I take it you are posting as ‘ClementofA’ on that forum is this correct?

If this is correct, why do you post and duplicate those conversations over here… any particular reason? IOW, why re-post here your comments made on another forum — not saying you shouldn’t, but wondering why you do? Why not simply post a relevant link IF it is pertinent to a post/argument being here and then leave it at that so people can follow on over elsewhere if they choose?


#14

Trying to flip your lid is all :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


#15

Correct.

They are relevant to this topic. Add new info. The quotes provide context.

BTW in many topics Jason Pratt welcomes comments to be added that are relevant to the subject being discussed.

It seems to me that even threads that are not replied to often get 100’s of views within a number of months. Maybe someone will find something useful in them over a period of years or decades.


#16

Scripture does not say babies will be raised with immortal bodies. Do you suppose they’d still be the same size (about 3 inches & up) as when they died & of the same mental capacity, i.e. like an animal (or less).

Scripture says:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom.10:13)

9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. (Rom.10:9-10)

Babies who died as such never did that while alive. So they died unsaved. They’ll have to be saved after death. Therefore there is after death salvation.

Scripture does not say those (babies included) who died in sin, with sinful natures or demon possessed (or oppressed) will be welcomed into heaven with such. They must first be saved from such to enter. So there is after life salvation.

Nothing common, unclean, profane or unwashed shall enter the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:27). Salvation requires “the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5). Babies didn’t get that in this life, so they’ll have to experience after death salvation.

Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh (e.g. new born babies) & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And He said one MUST be “born again” of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-8). No exceptions are given. Nowhere does He say His words apply only to the living & after death there is another way, a different principle. He doesn’t say babies who died as such will be allowed into the Kingdom without being born of the Spirit. And since babies will be allowed to enter, once they receive the new birth of the Spirit, there is after life salvation.

Do you suppose babies who died will be forced into heaven without their consent of free will & remain in those little bodies (about 3 inches high & up) & minds on the level of an animal (or less) for all eternity? And being forced to confess Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:9-11) and worship God (Rev.5:13) without even knowing what they are talking about? And this will glorify God?

[BTW, Scripture says the saved will confess Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:9-11) to the glory of God the Father. And that no one can do this except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:3).]

Or do you think it more reasonable & likely that Love Omnipotent will after their death bring these babies bodies & minds to a level of maturity so they can understand the gospel and make a free will choice between Jesus or Satan? And like in this life many will choose Jesus and many will reject Him. In which case there is after death salvation for the unsaved.

christianforums.com/threads … n.8039822/

christianforums.com/threads … r.8041512/

christianforums.com/threads … 6.8041938/

christianforums.com/threads … s.8042013/

christianforums.com/threads … n.8037317/


#17

Wrath? More like a gift, beyond all gifts possible, if popular Christianity is true that such innocents always automatically get a “don’t go to hell, but to heaven” card. IOW they are forced into heaven by irresistible grace, & given no choice in the matter, since Love Omnipotent evidently doesn’t care about a free choice being made to love Him. Instead He forces His love upon these. If only all created beings were so lucky. It seems salvation is a matter of pure luck, if popular beliefs were true. But they’re not: