The Evangelical Universalist Forum

If Eternal Hell Fire Damnation is True . .

Evangelical Universalism
#42

God, capital G, is what we are to seek perpetually.
God, capital G, I define as the ideal set of laws and rules we are to seek and follow, so as to live the best possible lives and show ourselves to be the fittest humans possible.

We are to seek those best laws and rules perpetually, because if we stop seeking and idol worship what we have found, we end in mental stagnation. Islam is an example of idol worshipers and as you can see, they are stuck in a more barbaric century.

We are all born with a natural instincts that automatically seek the best rules and laws to live by, and we already know that cooperation is better than competition, as cooperation does not create a victim while competition does. We are the weakest animal on the planet and if we competed at birth we would likely have gone extinct. Cooperation is our default setting at birth.

Jung and Freud named this perpetual seeking, and where we seek it, the Father Complex. Sages may have had this knowledge and that may be why all religions call that God Father. If you look at Michelangelo’s the creation painting, you will see that he painted God onto the right hemisphere of our brains. The Egyptians also did the same thing with their all seeing eye.

Our natures, is what makes us do all that we do. All living things have a nature that can be said to come from their God, but that is not a supernatural God. It is their own instinctive blueprint that causes them to seek the ideal set of laws and rules to live by so that they and we can become the fittest of our species. We all begin as lower case gods, so to speak, and all seek to become capital G Gods.

All sentient life is born, in a sense, in the image of their God. Not our God, although we follow the same basic rules that all animals do.

The God of an ant will be an ant.
The God of a lion is a lion.
The God of a man is a man.

When most religionists seek God, they are looking outward only, when they should be looking into themselves. That is what seeking Gnosis is.

Death is a part of our animal natures, as it is for all animals. But death is not what makes us seek the best rules to live life by or anything else for that mater. Our full nature is what is pushing us, life is pushing us, not death. Life that wishes to be one of following the best rules so as to extend that life and make us the fittest humans possible. We are always in the race for the survival of our fittest.

Regards
DL

#43

So you blame man, a creation of an all knowing God, for manipulating God to show his real nature of being a God who can cure as well as kill, — yet always chooses to kill.

Since you are not an honest debater and only choose to deflect while adoring your genocidal son murdering prick of a God.
You might want to ignore me as those of your ilk are not worth my time thanks to your dishonest discussion style.

Get honest of get lost.

Regards
DL

#44

You forget that the Jews rejected Jesus as savior.

Their savior was to be a man, not a God, who was to live and rule them. Not die and never return.

Ask any Jew and try to think of the immoral tenet you are following.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, — so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, — is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

#45

God kills and God makes alive. I have no problem with that especially when He is going to make all mankind alive and save them from sin and death. You should be jumping up and down rejoicing at this great news. Instead you find it not very good? Something is wrong here.

I’m not an honest debater? Show me exactly where I was dishonest in answering your questions rather than just making false claims. Geesh! :unamused:

.

I think you meant “Get honest or get lost.” I don’t know why they don’t infract you for making statements like that.

#46

Not all did. The ones who were the chosen by God didn’t and that is what counts.

No, their Saviour was to die for them then be cut off then return and reign over them. That is what the Scriptures state.

Sorry but that proves nothing. It just proves that God has blinded Israel as He said He would beginning in Isaiah’s day and continues to this day. But it won’t always be that way.

Making mankind pay for their sins when, after all, the cards were stacked against them is immoral. The moral thing to do is exactly what Christ did.

#47

Thanks for showing that your God stacked the deck against us.

The fact remains that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, — so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, — is immoral.

Take your immorality with you when you are sent to hell.

Regards
DL

#48

Gnostic Bishop, Thanks for your response. You also mention that “If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.” I see what you are saying, but if this is true then Jesus( love, compassion, truth, etc.) would not be the Alpha, as in primary, first, leader, etc. I would say that we may sin and go against our Godly nature, but eventually this would end up in destruction.We would also have no power over sin.

#49

You are welcome. We need make no apology for that since “God is working all together for good.”

No, the fact remains that all mankind were made sinners due to what Adam did (Romans 5:18,19) and the right thing to do is to make all mankind righteous due to what Christ did (Romans 5:18,19).

:unamused:

#50

You have some power over sin but not always because if you never sin, you would die.

I have to go long here to explain. I have this old O.P. that tries to do so.

 Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God’s culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose “A” or “B” (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of “being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent” and “desiring to eat a forbidden fruit” must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and “free will” means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

smithsonianmag.com/smart-new … 66/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

#51

youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9g … gest-vrecs

Regards
DL

#52

I am curious if this will post. It is a PDF file or a newsletter I write. This month’s topic is Christ, the Firstborn of every creature and thus their Kinsman Redeemer:

Update: I tried to put the link to the FaceBook PDF here and the link didn’t work. So . . .

I posted it to the Concordant Facebook Fellowship page but the link won’t work here.
You can read it if you go there there.

#53

Sorry, I don’t do youtube videos much as I am only alloted so may megabytes per month on my Sprint air card.
Maybe you can tell us the gist of the message?

#54

Sorry, I don’t do youtube videos much as I am only alloted so may megabytes per month on my Sprint air card.
Maybe you can tell us the gist of the message?

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, — so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, — is immoral.

Regards
DL

#55

Having the Person Who made Adam and Eve and the human race the way He did, it is only right that He undo it and have a new creation in Christ. He put the old creation to death in His death. In His life a new creation will come. That is only right.

#56

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

So much for your God’s omnipotence.

You can have your imperfect creator of garbage and keep your satanic morals.

Regards
DL

#57

Deu 32:4 The Rock–flawless is His contrivance, for all His ways are righteous judgment. The El of faithfulness and without iniquity; just and upright is He.

No, God made mankind flesh and it was good for Him to do that because it serves His purpose and intention. In His omnipotence He did it this way because it was the wisest way. This doesn’t make Him imperfect nor a creator of garbage. He planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden. It was His will they not eat of that tree but it was His hidden intention that they would. Mankind has been learning from the knowledge of good and evil ever since which is what is supposed to happen.

#58

I tell my child not to walk out in front of a car. I don’t tell him this because I intend for him to walk in front of a car. I tell him this because I MEAN IT!

#59

[size=150]GOOD POST :stuck_out_tongue: [/size]

#60

Seriously? Could you explain to us why you said what you said? Sorry but sometimes things need to be spelled out for me.

#61

Eusebius, I was responding to your post in which you stated “It is His will they not eat of that tree but it was His hidden intention that they would.” God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I don’t believe He had a hidden agenda of any sort. On the contrary, I believe God meant what He said.