The only time we are obligated to forgive is if the offender repents and changes.
R.C. Sproul:
I will go even further. The only time it is possible to forgive is if the offender repents, though we can forgive immediately upon repentance. For “repentance” means a change of heart and mind. If true repentance occurs, changes in behaviour will follow. Such changes are the fruit of repentance.
Oh, we can let go of any ill feelings we may have toward the offender even if he doesn’t repent. But letting go of ill feelings is not forgiveness. We might also not require any restitution from the offender though he didn’t repent. But that is not true forgiveness either. True forgiveness is a response to repentance. When true forgiveness is granted, there is a full restoration of relationship. It is just as if the offender has not sinned. For he has had a change of heart and mind, and is moving toward righteous living.
Some say, “Oh yes, I forgave him, but I’m never going to have lunch with him or invite him over for coffee.” What kind of “forgiveness” would that be? Would we be satisfied if God said to us, “Oh yes, I have forgiven you. But don’t bother praying; I won’t listen to your prayers. Don’t expect any relationship with me; there’s not going to be any!”
On the other hand, it is actually harmful to an offender if he hasn’t repented and you tell him that you have forgiven him. It gives him the message that what he had done is acceptable.
I disagree that it is only when someone repents that it is possible to forgive, this confuses reconciliation with forgiveness. The two are intertwined but nevertheless distinct, for example the forgiveness of sins, the great Jubilee has already been done for the whole world in Christ, the gift of repentance and forgiveness of sins and return from exile long promised has already been given to all, but the reconciliation and salvation that results from this comes about through the turning from de-humanizing ways and to Jesus saving Lordship, receiving the forgiveness of sins already offered to all nations, and partaking the true reconciliation and restoration of true relations that results.
And this is the same logic we are called to live by, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, forgiving them Himself, the Romans who brutalized Him, the crowds and priests who mocked Him, the disciples who abandoned Him, even though at that time (and for many maybe not till the resurrection itself) none repented. Jesus still forgave them, through reconciliation only happened at that time with the disciples afterwards (sadly apart from Judas), and the same logic is there where we are asked to love and forgive our enemies, to pray for those who use and hurt us, we are told to forgive them while their enemies, so they cannot have repented or they wouldn’t be our enemies. Rather we offer them forgiveness and pray that God will draw them to Him and cause them to turn, acknowledge the evil they did (which forgiving them names and declares to be evil and unacceptable, to be rejected before normal relations can resume) and receive the forgiveness that God and ourselves holds out thus enabling the reconciliation that is at the heart of the gospel to take place. Evil is overcome by love, and all things are reconciled in the Messiah, even though the process is painful, and it hurts, it anticipates the final restoration of all things. And it is where evil-doers are restored and turned to workers of justice, hate to love, and all the was taken or lost is restored in true relations through true reconciliation of which forgiveness is the conduit by which true justice is achieved.
A great example of this in our time comes from my own home country of South Africa, in the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (which contains the key reflection that forgiveness and reconciliation requires truth otherwise it is neither), lead by Desmond Tutu, and was and is a powerful sign that Jesus is Lord of this world. South Africa has many problems still, but that Commission, where white, black, Indian, Xhosa, Zulu, Afrikaans and English South Africans who had committed horrendous evils on all sides were brought together with the victims and victims families, and finally the evil that held all imprisoned and it’s debt were released, and a way for reconciliation was found, not a easy way, but a hard and tough path. But the offered forgiveness and release was it’s heart, that facilitated people being able to name and exclude the evil, and then offer an embrace to bring restoration and the beginnings of finding release for the hurt and the hold it’s pain and anger caused, whether the perpetrator choose to receive it or not. The very act of forgiveness releases the person from having to hold onto the hurt anymore, and releases them from it’s having any hold or rule in their life anymore, forgiveness defeats the power of evil from having the right to dominate and enslaves our lives, we are freed from having to carry that heavy debt.
And to Micheal, I’m sorry you are having such trouble finding a church, I myself am currently not attending a church community directly and I am searching. Though I would council against expecting any community to be perfect, were are all damaged people being healed and restored, and it’s an ongoing process that won’t be finished until the resurrection. Only then in that the future will we be completely the unique and beautiful humans we should be. So part of the process is learning to live a life of forgiveness and love, being the forgiving and reconciliation people, bearing with your brothers and sisters in community in Christ as we work to live in unity anticipating the life to come. But whatever you choice, follow where you see the truth leading you, since all truth comes from God, so I pray that will lead you right in the end, may God bless, keep and protect you 
(edited for clarity, and thank you Cindy for moving this, it is better here, and I’m sorry if I was risking getting the other thread off-track)
[tag]Michael_Cole[/tag] and [tag]JasonPratt[/tag], this is to note that I was the one who started this topic, to avoid derailing another topic, so it shouldn’t count as Cole’s topic for the week. 
Cindy
The Calvinist A.W. Pink:
I agree with Pink. This is where I have always disagreed with John Piper. He also calls “self-esteem” a cult. The Calvinist R.C. Sproul on the other hand holds to having a proper self-esteem. In his book ’ In Search of Dignity and The Hunger for Significance" the inside jacket cover description of In Search of Dignity says:
I agree with Sproul.
Here’s a link to a GMac sermon that’s particularly pertinent to this subject: It Shall Not Be Forgiven. It’s very much worth re-reading (or reading for the first time.)
Thanks for posting the link to the GMac sermon, Cindy. This is a hot topic for me, as I preached one of my very occasional sermons this Sunday, on the so-called unforgivable sin, using that very sermon as the inspiration for my sermon. In essence, MacDonald says - and I think he’s absolutely right, as usual - that in human terms, the unforgivable sin is unforgivingness (is that a word? ) towards our neighbour. (In Godly terms, it’s wilfully resisting God’s truth, while being aware that it is the truth. It’s an attitude of the will, not an action per se, and while we remain in that state of mind we cut ourselves off from God’s grace; his forgiveness - even though we have it already - cannot reach us, cannot have any salvific effect on us. But GMac doesn’t think that anyone who ever once falls into such a sinful state is therefore condemned forever to remain in it - hence the unforgivable sin is something of a misnomer.)
Contrary to what the egregious Mr Pink says, the repentance of the person who has sinned against us is emphatically not a Biblical prerequisite for our forgiveness. Further, it is entirely possible - indeed desirable - for us to forgive those who wrong us, regardless of whether or not they repent. As NightRevan correctly points out, Jesus entreated his Father to forgive his executioners - who clearly weren’t repentant. That fact alone disposes of Pink’s fatuous argument in a trice. Further, Paul spells it out explicitly in Romans 5 that Christ died for sinners and reconciled them to God with no prior knowledge or repentance on their part.
If you want further scriptural proof, think of the famous parable of the Prodigal Son, whose father rushes to meet him and shower him with kisses before he gets a chance to utter a word of repentance.
I suppose the issue here is how we actually define ‘forgiveness’ - and correct me if I’m wrong, but the Bible doesn’t really spell it out. Wikipedia defines it thus:
Under that definition, which I reckon is a very good one, it’s quite obvious that it is possible to forgive an unrepentant sinner. The reason being, it is an act of volition in the person doing the forgiving. It is not dependent on the stance or actions of the sinner. As is made clear, and NightRevan reminds us, forgiveness is not the same thing as reconciliation - which almost certainly does require the participation of the sinner.
I used the tragic example in my sermon of a lady called Winnie Johnson, whose young son was murdered in the 1960s by a psychopath called Ian Brady (known as the Moors Murderer). Brady has been locked up in a secure psychiatric hospital ever since, and is totally impenitent. Indeed, he delights in playing sadistic games with the media, and with the families of his murder victims. Winnie Johnson could not forgive Brady and the bitterness and hatred she clung to blighted her life, ruined it in fact. (She died a couple of years ago.)
Contrast that with the attitude of a chap called Gordon Wilson, whose teenage daughter was murdered by the IRA in a bomb attack on a Remembrance Day parade in Enniskillen in Northern Ireland in 1987. Wilson publicly forgave his daughter’s murderers long before any of them, or anyone representing them, expressed any remorse for that horrific crime. 10 years later, Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams did just that, apologised for the bombing; a few months later Adams and the other political leaders in Northern Ireland signed the Good Friday agreement, cementing a lasting peace in Northern Ireland. It was the courage of Gordon Wilson and others like him to forgive before repentance from those who had wronged them that made that possible.
All the best
Johnny
Well, Cole, perhaps you could apply some of that love and compassion to your father. You never know, it might make you happier - and him too.
Cheers
Johnny
My dad’s history Johnny my man. May he rot in the grave.
If I understood GMac’s sermon when I re-read it a couple of days ago (and I may not have; it’s work to read well), his position on this seems to be that the forgiveness is given, but can’t make its way into the offender’s heart until he makes himself able to receive it by repenting. The repentance may be of his own unforgiveness, or of his characterization of the Holy Spirit as a spirit of Beelzebub (so to speak). Is that the way you read it, Johnny?
I think I remember Paidion talking about this in another thread and he said something to the effect that he doesn’t hold resentment or anger or hurt against the offender, but in his own view, forgiveness entails reconciliation, and that cannot be if the offender remains impenitent. So if you define forgiveness that way, I think he has a point. I always thought it was basically not harboring anger, resentment, ill wishes, etc. against the one who has sinned against me (and often continued to sin against me). That last does make it very difficult to continue to “forgive” in the sense of not resenting – but that doesn’t let us off obeying our Lord.
Forgiveness does not always lead to a restored relationship. That is the simply truth, and many do not understand that the bible never commands a reconciliation, or restoring of a bad dynamic. ( Abusive people mental, verbal, physical, sexual, etc.)/ Forgiveness comes from the heart, and that gives you peace, and freedom from guilt, because every situation is unique. In many bad deadly relationships it may not be possible to keep the peace ] if possible’] obviously when St. Paul wrote this he understood it is sometimes impossible to ’ keep the peace 100 percent of the time with all people, and at that point it is time to shake off the dust from the feet and move on.
*
If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all,* Romans 12:18
In many situations the only possible solution to peace is to leave the relationship and move on in life and making peace in your heart.
It may be impossible for us to truly forgive while the person we’re angry with continues to do exactly what they did to annoy us, but i’m thankful that “with us it’s impossible, but nothing is impossible for God”
Then again, maybe that’s because God foresees a future repentance for all of us…but my understanding of forgiveness is that it is letting go of the hate and choosing to cease holding it against someone. However, this doesn’t entail being a doormat. If the person hasn’t changed, we’re going to have the same problem. Yes, we forgive 70 x 7 times (which clearly is Jesus saying don’t EVER stop forgiving), but we must realise the real beneficiary in forgiveness is the victim. If the victim can walk away and leave the hurt behind and stop fondling it, they can truly heal and be free. The perpetrator may or may not change in this world, but the victim who ceases to be a victim by leaving the situation and the hate behind is truly free.
However, as stated before, this is at least nearly impossible, at least without God’s help.
Hi Cindy
Absolutely. It’s not that God can’t or won’t forgive us, rather that the forgiveness He offers cannot penetrate our souls, cannot have any beneficial, restorative effect on us. What the Pharisees did in claiming that Jesus was driving out demons by demonic power was, in my - and I think GMac’s - opinon simply the actual form this particular ‘sin’ took. In other words, their claiming that Jesus was possessed by the devil was not the problem in and of itself - rather it was the particular expression of their wilful denial, in the face of clear evidence, of Jesus’ divinity.
Again, agreed. Wendy is bang on here. I suppose the difference between my view and Paidion’s view is that I don’t believe forgiveness *necessarily *entails reconciliation. As per the examples I gave earlier, I think it’s entirely possible to forgive an impenitent person - although of course, one cannot reconcile with them, so long as they remain impenitent.
Cheers
Johnny
Hi Cole
Sorry to hear that matey. Clearly your dad has hurt you badly in the past, and it’s not for me to judge that situation. And I know family rifts can be strong and enduring. I just pray you can stay strong, happy and healthy, and just maybe God will do the rest one day. For like James says, nothing is impossible with God.
All the best my man
Cheers
Johnny
“Psychology Today” is endorsed by the National Board for Certified Counselors, which promotes subscriptions to “Psychology Today” and offers professional credit from the organization for a small fee and assigned assessment for each article read.
From the article:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZtzDpfykL.SY344_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200.jpg
In our culture the belief that “To err is human, to forgive divine,” is so prevalent that few of us question its wisdom. But do we ever completely forgive those who have betrayed us? Aren’t some actions unforgivable? Can we achieve closure and healing without forgiving? Drawing on more than two decades of work as a practicing psychotherapist, more than fifty in depth interviews, and sterling research into the concept of forgiveness in our society, Dr. Jeanne Safer challenges popular opinion with her own searching answers to these and other questions. The result is a penetrating look at what is often a lonely, and perhaps unnecessary, struggle to forgive those who have hurt us the most and an illuminating examination of how to determine whether forgiveness is, indeed, the best path to take-and why, often, it is not.
I suppose it is determined by the definitions we have about what ’ forgiveness’ is. In many cases it is assumed that it means to jump right back in allowing the perpetrator back in our lives, but this isn’t the case. Again, I think the way scriptures are defining true forgiveness is peace within your heart. When the perpetrator refuses to confess and acknowledge their contribution to the hurt and wounds they cause by their carelessness, forgiveness starts when we set them free from hurting and abusing our heart. The scriptures also encourage us to ’ guard our heart '. So the heart, and our well being is very important to our creator . The Lord God is very protective of our hearts, and does not enforce us to be inflicted by having our heart- well being compromised by those who are indifferent and cruel to our well being.
Guard your heart more than anything else, because the source of your life flows from it. Prov 4:23
I think that, whether we want to call it “forgiveness” or not, it is absolutely essential to let go of anger, hatred, resentment, and of course ill will towards those who have hurt us. “Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord; I will repay.” We can cry out to Him for justice and at the same time ask Him to “forgive them for they know not what they do.”
I DO want justice to be visited on those who have hurt me and who don’t care – who are glad for my agony – who truly hate me without a cause. (And yes, I think we all have a few people like this in (or out of at the moment) our lives.) I don’t know what that justice might look like, but I have an idea it may entail them feeling (perhaps several-fold) the pains they’ve caused me. In other words, I want them to be sorry – I want them to repent – to wish to God they’d never done the thing, whatever it is, not only because of the repercussions they are currently suffering, but because they are genuinely and truly sorrowful for having shredded the heart of another human being – their sister who did deserve much better from them. Not only that, but I want them to feel the pain of our Father at having one of His children so cruelly abuse another of His children. The upshot, is that I want them to be healed, but I don’t want it to be easy. 
In fact, I don’t think they COULD be healed without the pain. In the end though, what I really want is that they should be restored to me and I to them as mutually loving brothers and sisters longing to give ourselves for one another.
Beyond that, I have had my fill of needing to repent – to be massively sorry that I ever did that thing, to suffer ten-fold for the torture I dealt out, however selfishly rather than maliciously I may have dealt it. I don’t want to go through that again, and I am willing to repent early and often and even to refrain from the thing because I have frankly had enough. I want love; I want peace; and if I want those things, I have to stop sinning myself, including the sin of harboring resentment and hatred toward those who have hurt and in some cases continue to hurt me.
Therefore, whatever I want to CALL it, I must forgive or let go my resentment or lay my anger at the foot of the cross. I must refuse to hold onto these things but rather give them to my Father whom I know to be just and perfect and loving, and from whom I trust I will receive back my former enemies as beloved brothers and sisters in Him.