The Evangelical Universalist Forum

In All Likelihood George MacDonald Went to Hell

Practices Christian Living
#48

I’m glad you quoted those words of Jonathan Edwards, S. Michael. But notice Edwards’ words carefully:

By employing that word “merely” does not Edwards suggest that beholding the misery of the damned is one of the factors of the joy of the saved, though not the only factor? If not, why did he use the word “merely”?

And notice the very next part of the “sermon”:

.

The saved won’t pity the damned in their suffering, Edwards says, because God has no love or pity for them, but rather has eternal hatred for them. How does God’s eternal hatred for them fit the apostle John’s statement that God IS love? That “LOVE” is His very essence? Yes, indeed, there was very good reason for George MacDonald to turn from Edwards’ portrait of God with loathing.

#49

Paidion,

It follows logically that if God is love then He must hate evil. He protects His children against those who hate Him and His children until they are made new.

#50

Hating evil and hating evil-doers are two distinctly different activities.

#51

Paidion,

The Bible doesn’t make that distinction because it’s impossible to make. From both Old and New Testaments:

Leviticus 20:23 - “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.”

Leviticus 26:30 - “And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.”

Deuteronomy 32:19 - “And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.”

Psalm 5:5 - “The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”

Psalm 5:6 - “Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Psalm 10:3 - “For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.”

Psalm 11:5 - “The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.”

Psalm 53:5 - “There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.”

Psalm 73:20 - “As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.”

Psalm 78:59 - “When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:”

Psalm 106:40 - “Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.”

Proverbs 6:16-19 - “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”

Proverbs 22:14 - “The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.”

Lamentations 2:6 - “And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.”

Hosea 9:15 - “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.”

Zechariah 11:8 - “Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me.”

Malachi 1:3 - “And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”

Romans 9:13 - “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

#52

Jesus made that distinction:

He taught His disciples to love those who hated them. He didn’t tell them to love their evil deeds.
He also said that by doing so, His disciples would prove themselves to be children of God—that God is KIND to evil people, not that He hates them and tortures them forever.

Paul also taught that the kindness of God is meant to lead people to repentance. (Romans 2:4)

#53

Jonathan Edwards agrees. We are talking about when God gets His vengeance of the evil doers in hell though. In the meantime we love our enemies. Vengeance belongs to God.

#54

It’s not vengeance. Poor translation. It should be translated as “judgment.” God’s activity is the righteous judgment of people—for the purpose of bringing about righteousness. It is NEVER out of vengeance, payback, or penalty.

#55

Here’s a couple more speaking of Christ’s’s wrath:

calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb ~~ Rev. 6:16

The Bible speaks of this fiery wrath as a cup unmixed without mercy:

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

A different God than MacDonald’s indeed.

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” ~~ Romans 12:19

This same God of the NT is the God of the OT as we see the context and background from which this is taken:

Leviticus 19:18 ~~ 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:35 ~~‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.’

Proverbs 20:22~~Do not say, “I will repay evil”; Wait for the LORD, and He will save you.

Proverbs 24:29~~Do not say, “Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work.”

Jeremiah 51:36~~Therefore thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am going to plead your case And exact full vengeance for you; And I will dry up her sea And make her fountain dry.

When you have faith in God there’s no reason to be violent. We Let go and Let the all powerful all glorious God handle our enemy. The glory goes to God. God does the mocking on Judgment Day:

I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,

when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.

Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me

Proverbs 1:26-28:

#56

It is unfortunate that εκδικησις has been translated as “vengeance.”

Jesus told a parable:

The ESV correctly translates the word as “justice.” The widow didn’t want vengeance against her adversary. She wanted justice. Perhaps her adversary had taken monetary advantage of her, and she wanted repayment.

And consider what Paul wrote to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 7:11 concerning how they dealt with the man who copulated with his step-mother:

The ESV correctly translates the word as “vindication.” It makes no sense to translate it as “vengeance” here. The Corinthians were vindicated in the way they treated the man. Their treatment resulted in his repentance. They didn’t take vengeance upon him.

As in the case of repayment to the widow in Christ’s parable so is the sense in “Justice is mine, I will repay.” It means that God will make right the wrong done to his people.

The idea of Romans 12:19 (Judgment is mine, I will repay) is not at all about getting revenge on the wrongdoer. Rather, if someone takes advantage of you, never try to force him to repay or give back what’s coming to you. Judgment in such cases belongs to God. He will make it right and give back what’s coming to you. Yes, the wrath of God is mentioned in the passage. God gets angry at injustice.

#57

Paidion,

You just admitted that it’s the kind of justice that repays. You said:

This is vengeance. We see this from the OT scriptures from which it was taken. Here’s a NT vengeance of God:

Moreover, the Greek word in Romans that says “Vngeance is Mine” is

#58

I didn’t “admit” that the repayment was vengeance shown to the offender (paying him back for his offense) as you seem to believe.
I indicated that the repayment was to the recipient of the offense.

#59

Sorry Paidion. But the Greek definition confirms what the translation say as “Vengeance”.

#60

Here’s the theme song, for those undergoing hell / postmortem punishment: :wink:

My normal “mantra” these days is:

Buddhist meditation/ Vedanta contemplation/ Holistic Medicine/ Anglo-Orthodox theology

So many fundamentalists - and some here - would say I would also, be singing this song. :laughing:

#61

Piper was influenced by MacDonald and Chesterton and loved them dearly. According to Piper they mocked and verbally abused people. According to Piper, “John Piper feels healthier after reading them”. This is why Piper isn’t enlightened. He acts the same way his beloved mentors did.

God does the mocking on Judgment Day. For Vengeance belongs to Him

I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,

when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.

Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me

Proverbs 1:26-28

In this video even Tim Keller (who has read MacDonald) claims it’s unlikely MacDonald was enlightened. They even talk about how C.S. Lewis brutally bullied people in debates. As you know George MacDonald influenced him. Piper tries to justify this by calling Americans “touchy feely” people. John Piper never denies George MacDonald’s authenticity. You can see how much Piper is influenced by MacDonald in his own behavior on youtube videos if MacDonald acted the way Piper says. Piper tries to justify his behavior by appealing to the behavior of Lewis and MacDonald.

#63

Well, when your heart is separated from God’s mercy your heart does harden. You hate God and don’t want to love Him. You will loathe the God of Jonathan Edwards. I’ve been thinking about this and I think Edwards was correct. I don’t want to blaspheme an eternal God and His infinite holiness. And as I pondered last night St. Teresa of Avilla’s vision of hell and how she said it will go on forever I’m going to go along with her. The vision of eternal condemnation was also given to some children at Fatima in an apparition of Mary and was confirmed to be authentic. Pope Francis recently canonized sainthood for the children. If George MacDonald didn’t stop mocking and loathing God then His heart was separated from all mercy. He would then continue hating God and His children forever. But like the thief on the cross it could have happened. Anything is possible.

#65

Well, it’s in part the attitude of George MacDonald and people like you. You believe lies and falsehoods. And when I clear them up and answer your questions you personally attack me and don’t deal with what I say. You verbally abuse me because I was diagnosed with a mental disorder and was struggling with it in the past while I was manic. Most of all St. Teresa of Avilla was a holy saint and was not mentally ill. Her vision has been confirmed. It’s hard for me to think she was mistaken or making it up. I guess it’s possible but not likely.

#67

WHICH Greek definition? Have you concluded that that is the ONLY definition?

The Online Bible Program lexicon does give that definition, but also makes the following statement:

It also gives the following definition of the verbal form of the word as its first definition:

What ABOUT 2 Cor 7:11? I mentioned it in one of my previous posts. Let’s examine it in context:

Paul had made the Corinthians sorry with his first letter, but only because he wanted them to correct the situation where one of their number had been copulating with his step-mother. And the Corinthians had responded appropriately but shunning the brother. That action led to his repentance. I think the translators of the Jubilee Bible were perceptive in rendering the word as “vindication.” For Paul immediately followed with the word with, " In all things ye have shown yourselves to be clean(or ‘pure’ or ‘innocent’) in this matter." In other words they were vindicated.

Although a number of translators render the word as “vengeance” it doesn’t make sense in this context. The Corinthians didn’t take vengeance on the erring brother; rather they lovingly corrected him, and he accepted the correction. This was also justice on the part of the Corinthians. Indeed, the Holman Christian Standard Bible so translates the word:

Now let’s look at the text in question. Should it really be translated as the ESV translates it:

Or should it be?

#69

Paidion,

Romans is quoting from the OT when it says Vengeance is Mine I will repay. The word means:

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

  1. Vengeance, Revenge

  2. The desire of Vengeance.

We know this is the correct definition not only because the background is the OT word but the Romans passage makes this clear. We are not to repay evil for evil because vengeance belongs to God. He will repay. Repaying evil for evil is vengeance:

Romans 12:17-21

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ““Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord; On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

#70

Yes, S. Michael, the Hebrew word may well mean “vengeance.” A lot of vengeance went on during the days of the ancient Hebrews.
But that fact doesn’t imply that Paul in his quote of it meant “vengeance.”

Jesus, the gospel writers, and the apostles often applied the Hebrew Scriptures in ways that differed from their original application. Let me give you a clear example:

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” (Matthew 2:13-15 ESV)

However, the original quote from Hosea 11 is not about Jesus going to Egypt with His parents and then coming out of Egypt. It is about God callilng His son Israel out of the land of Egypt in the days of ancient Israel:

Your quote from Romans 12 seems to confirm a different usage. I explained what it probably was in a previous post.
Your quote, in part, is as follows:

Why would Paul repeat himself? “Do not repay anyone evil for evil” is tantamount to “Do not take revenge.”
But if Paul was using the OT words in the sense of "Beloved, Never try to get justice for yourself, but leave it to the anger of God, for it is written, “Justice is mine, I will repay (you), says the Lord,” it would not be a repeat, but a different instruction.

#71

Paul’s using the OT God as his background.

Just as the writer of psalms 56 does we put our trust in God when He says:

“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” is a direct quote from the Hebrew that has the context of vengeance and the word always means vengeance. We trust God and love our neighbor as ourselves.

When you have faith in God there’s no reason to be violent. We Let go and Let the all powerful all glorious God handle our enemy. The glory goes to God. God does the mocking on Judgment Day