The Evangelical Universalist Forum

In All Likelihood George MacDonald Went to Hell


Piper was influenced by MacDonald and Chesterton and loved them dearly. According to Piper they mocked and verbally abused people. According to Piper, “John Piper feels healthier after reading them”. This is why Piper isn’t enlightened. He acts the same way his beloved mentors did.

God does the mocking on Judgment Day. For Vengeance belongs to Him

I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,

when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.

Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me

Proverbs 1:26-28

In this video even Tim Keller (who has read MacDonald) claims it’s unlikely MacDonald was enlightened. They even talk about how C.S. Lewis brutally bullied people in debates. As you know George MacDonald influenced him. Piper tries to justify this by calling Americans “touchy feely” people. John Piper never denies George MacDonald’s authenticity. You can see how much Piper is influenced by MacDonald in his own behavior on youtube videos if MacDonald acted the way Piper says. Piper tries to justify his behavior by appealing to the behavior of Lewis and MacDonald.


I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but… Assuming MacDonald did in fact do wrong as you claim, why would MacDonald be punished for trillions of years if he didn’t repent before he died? Do you actually think it would take him trillions of years in Gehenna to repent?


Well, when your heart is separated from God’s mercy your heart does harden. You hate God and don’t want to love Him. You will loathe the God of Jonathan Edwards. I’ve been thinking about this and I think Edwards was correct. I don’t want to blaspheme an eternal God and His infinite holiness. And as I pondered last night St. Teresa of Avilla’s vision of hell and how she said it will go on forever I’m going to go along with her. The vision of eternal condemnation was also given to some children at Fatima in an apparition of Mary and was confirmed to be authentic. Pope Francis recently canonized sainthood for the children. If George MacDonald didn’t stop mocking and loathing God then His heart was separated from all mercy. He would then continue hating God and His children forever. But like the thief on the cross it could have happened. Anything is possible.


I knew your move to universalism was just another one of your fads.


Well, it’s in part the attitude of George MacDonald and people like you. You believe lies and falsehoods. And when I clear them up and answer your questions you personally attack me and don’t deal with what I say. You verbally abuse me because I was diagnosed with a mental disorder and was struggling with it in the past while I was manic. Most of all St. Teresa of Avilla was a holy saint and was not mentally ill. Her vision has been confirmed. It’s hard for me to think she was mistaken or making it up. I guess it’s possible but not likely.


Confirmed by whom? How?


WHICH Greek definition? Have you concluded that that is the ONLY definition?

The Online Bible Program lexicon does give that definition, but also makes the following statement:

It also gives the following definition of the verbal form of the word as its first definition:

What ABOUT 2 Cor 7:11? I mentioned it in one of my previous posts. Let’s examine it in context:

Paul had made the Corinthians sorry with his first letter, but only because he wanted them to correct the situation where one of their number had been copulating with his step-mother. And the Corinthians had responded appropriately but shunning the brother. That action led to his repentance. I think the translators of the Jubilee Bible were perceptive in rendering the word as “vindication.” For Paul immediately followed with the word with, " In all things ye have shown yourselves to be clean(or ‘pure’ or ‘innocent’) in this matter." In other words they were vindicated.

Although a number of translators render the word as “vengeance” it doesn’t make sense in this context. The Corinthians didn’t take vengeance on the erring brother; rather they lovingly corrected him, and he accepted the correction. This was also justice on the part of the Corinthians. Indeed, the Holman Christian Standard Bible so translates the word:

Now let’s look at the text in question. Should it really be translated as the ESV translates it:

Or should it be?


What lies and falsehoods do I believe that you’ve “cleared up”?



Romans is quoting from the OT when it says Vengeance is Mine I will repay. The word means:

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

  1. Vengeance, Revenge

  2. The desire of Vengeance.

We know this is the correct definition not only because the background is the OT word but the Romans passage makes this clear. We are not to repay evil for evil because vengeance belongs to God. He will repay. Repaying evil for evil is vengeance:

Romans 12:17-21

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ““Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord; On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Yes, S. Michael, the Hebrew word may well mean “vengeance.” A lot of vengeance went on during the days of the ancient Hebrews.
But that fact doesn’t imply that Paul in his quote of it meant “vengeance.”

Jesus, the gospel writers, and the apostles often applied the Hebrew Scriptures in ways that differed from their original application. Let me give you a clear example:

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” (Matthew 2:13-15 ESV)

However, the original quote from Hosea 11 is not about Jesus going to Egypt with His parents and then coming out of Egypt. It is about God callilng His son Israel out of the land of Egypt in the days of ancient Israel:

Your quote from Romans 12 seems to confirm a different usage. I explained what it probably was in a previous post.
Your quote, in part, is as follows:

Why would Paul repeat himself? “Do not repay anyone evil for evil” is tantamount to “Do not take revenge.”
But if Paul was using the OT words in the sense of "Beloved, Never try to get justice for yourself, but leave it to the anger of God, for it is written, “Justice is mine, I will repay (you), says the Lord,” it would not be a repeat, but a different instruction.


Paul’s using the OT God as his background.

Just as the writer of psalms 56 does we put our trust in God when He says:

“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” is a direct quote from the Hebrew that has the context of vengeance and the word always means vengeance. We trust God and love our neighbor as ourselves.

When you have faith in God there’s no reason to be violent. We Let go and Let the all powerful all glorious God handle our enemy. The glory goes to God. God does the mocking on Judgment Day


It could be, that we don’t know all the variables. Perhaps GM was a fiddle player. And he had a contest with the devil - and won :bulb:


I read the op and skimmed through many comments, and I just have to say that it seems to me that much if not all of St Michael’s concerns could be allayed by following a couple rules I’ve learned in my short years on this earth which I will share: 1.) When dealing with historical people, it is a good idea to practice those things you can discern in them that can be considered good, and disavow those things we can discern are bad. You can even disavow them loudly, but you might also praise their memory for the good just as loud. Martin Luther, George MacDonald, and all of us are both good and bad examples. 2.) Never let yourself get sucked into thinking about how the Lord will judge another. Ever. Just don’t do it. He will judge us all justly with love, and that is enough.

Peace to you all.


And I will add a comment. For any more “insights” - from Michael. :laughing:


As we have seen George MacDonald hated the God of Edwards and mocked God’s children. The Bible tells us not to be mockers or hang out with them. Indeed, they mocked Jesus during His sufferings and beatings. But vengeance belongs to God. When God judges the Bible says He laughs and mocks when terror strikes those who mock Christ and His children. But didn’t MacDonald believe God was the God of the beautiful like Edwards? Well, MacDonald called the wrathful God of penal substitution Molech. This is a very serious delusion. How do we explain this by MacDonald then?

Well, Satan appears as a beautiful angel of light. His seductive beauty he first shines seduces into sin and the Bible tells us not to mock. Especially God and His children.

True beauty comes from God who is infinitely beautiful in*** holiness and love*** This is indeed the God of Edwards:

This is why sin against God is so serious. Edwards saw this clearly:

The God that MacDonald loathed as he mocked is indeed the God of true beauty and glory.


If you find joy in the eternal agony of over 90% of humanity throughout the ages, and you believe God finds joy in it too, and if you are unmoved by all evidence to the contrary, there’s nothing more to say. Could you really look upon such eternal torment throughout eternity without compassion? Is this your idea of heaven—watching those people suffering forever?

I find my joy in God’s absolute LOVE for mankind, and his continuous working through Christ to deliver people from destructive wrongdoing in their lives. I find this imagined eternal torment abhorrent.

By the way, on what grounds do you expect to escape eternal torment?


We escape by faith in God or Christ. This faith opens our hearts up to love. Even our enemies. I have faith in God when He says Vengeance is Mine. Rather love your neighbor as yourself while on earth. Moreover, Saints are not cruel and sadistic. As Edwards and Aquinas have stated: It’s not the suffering of those in hell in and of itself that the saints delight in but the glories of God’s love and justice as He protects His children from the contamination and abuse of God haters. Aquinas and Edwards never taught a sadistic delight in the sufferings of those in hell. The saints delight in the suffering of those in hell only in the sense that the glory of God will appear in it. The saints will feel the intense glory of God as he shows His tender love for them by bringing His justice down on evil God haters.

Oh! how glorious and powerful God is, by defending and protecting His few children from all that evil!!

From R.C. Sprouls Reformation Study Bible

From the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible:


Well Michael, you know your theology is considered abhorrent by members of this forum. Why don’t you run along now to a forum where your beliefs will be validated?


Yeah, it might be best if members of this forum learn to ignore Michael.


Is there an ignore feature available?