The Eastern Orthodox hold the same opinion, of Protestants and Roman Catholics. And the Protestants, usually hold the same opinion - of EO and RC churches.
Not most of the Calvinists. This is why I can’t become a Calvinist of the R.C. Sproul, James White type.
I can’t become a Calvinist either. But I appreciate their answers, to Biblical questions - at Got Questions and CARM. Minus any Calvinist commentary.
A lot have some correct theology they are just blind to the fact that RCC are part of the body.
But why? Why can’t you have an infinite number of turtles going down? Doesn’t it make as much sense as an infinite universe in which many believe? Or an infinite quantity of time spent in hell?
No because those in hell refuse to repent because their hearts are separated from God’s mercy. They loathe God and His children. They don’t want Him.
First of all, no one is yet in hell. Everyone who has died is dead. They will not be alive again until their resurrection.
Secondly, on what grounds do you suppose that all those who will be in hell will refuse to repent even after millions of years have passed. Will they have lost their free will, simply because they have died and will have been raised?
Do you believe God does not have the ability to correct them, or minister to them in such a way as to lead them to repentance?
It’s based on the fact that God separates the sheep from the goats. Jesus says depart from me. Kolasis means to prune or cut off. And as the Catechism states the chief punishment of hell is eternal separation. When your heart is separated from mercy it hardens. The Bible says God hardens whom He pleases and He has mercy on whom He pleases. It follows logically that when your heart is separated from mercy you get worse not better.
Michael, are you Catholic? Or perhaps Calvinist? Or a mix of the two? Or Buddhist?
I’m going to join the Catholic church. You have to go through classes though. I haven’t done that yet. One reason I’m becoming Catholic is because they are open to other beliefs. They consider the other bodies in Christianity to be brothers and sisters even though they are a separate body.
Roman Catholic? It seems it could be a good choice for you.
Yes, 'kolasis" means to prune or to cut off. But for what purpose? The word was originally used in the sense of pruning plants in order to CORRECT their growth. Later on, it was used figuratively with reference to the correction of the behaviour of children.
Also, since “kolasis” means “correction,” Matt 25:46 proves that “aionios” doesn’t mean “eternal.” For how can you have “eternal correction”? If it were eternal, the correction would never be achieved. No. “aionios” means “lasting” or “enduring.”
I guess that would fit my view of atonement. Aquinas held that at the cross Jesus suffered and bore the punishment for our sins. But this punishment was medicinal punishment. It’s not the same as John Calvin’s penal substitution. That theory holds that God’s wrath was penal only. The Bible tells us that Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. Moreover, we know it was disciplinary is because of Isaiah 53:5 -
The Hebrew word here is musar
discipline, chastening, correction
The NASB Strongest Exhaustive Concordance
There is no penal element in this word. It’s for disciplinary or corrective purposes. It’s a masculine noun meaning instruction, discipline. It also fits with that scripture in Hebrews:
I guess if I say that it happened at the cross then the corrective discipline is for hell as well. I think there’s also a good case for eternal meaning long lasting correction. Thanks for reminding me about this. It fits with how I see the atonement now. To be consistent I guess I have to accept it.
Eternal means long lasting though. Ages unto the ages means a very long time. It’s more like millions upon millions of years. Even trillions upon trillions.
Okay Paidion I’ve been thinking about this. As long as the punishment is infinitely intense with pain in could last only a few hours. When we disobey God we sin against Him because we are under infinite obligations to obey Him. As Jonathan Edwards puts it:
The mathematics work out the same if we suffer infinitely intense pain for a few hours like Christ did. The wrath is disciplinary in that it corrects but it also punishes. Like the Bible teaches it’s medicinal or disciplinary as it corrects and purifies.
Would be the correct interpretation. The discipline is lasting. Only a few hours but infinite in it’s intensity and strength.
That makes sense of this scripture:
Now it’s said that the beast and false prophet were there a thousand years before the devil. But with God a thousand years is like a day. Tormented day and night forever and ever is a way of saying the torment is eternal. Just as Sodom and Gomorrah underwent the punishment of eternal fire but it’s not still burning today. It was the eternal fire of God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. With new resurrected bodies those in the lake of fire experience suffering and torment that is eternal in it’s strength and intensity. But like Christ on the cross it lasts for only a few hours or days. The punishment is therefore eternal in this sense.
What do you think Paidion?
Well…I think that is an interesting view, S. Michael. It certainly provides a better view of God’s character than that of everlasting torment, and also makes sense out of the “eternal” fire you mentioned that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:7).
However, I think it more realistic to understand “αινιος” as meaning “lasting” since it is so frequently used in secular Greek writings as well as events in the NT, the Septuagint, the writings of Josephus, and the ante-Nicene fathers to describe events that lasted only a short time. And translating “αινιος” as “lasting” fits the “eternal” fire you mentioned that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, since that, too, lasted a rather short length of time relative to “millions and billions” of years.
What about forever and ever or ages unto the ages? Are you saying that’s lasting? That phrase seems more like long lasting which can also mean eternal. And what do you do with the metaphysical aspect? I’m referring to Jonathan Edwards argument.
As long as the intensity of the suffering is infinite then it could last only a few hours or days. This would be eternal punishment.
In the human realm and courts there are different degrees of sin with different punishments. But since all sin is ultimately against God then in His judgment and courtroom they are all the same in His eyes:
In one sense, all sins are equal. “The wages of sin is death …”, refers to all sin, in thought, word, or deed. But if you say there is no sense where they’re all equal and some deserve more punishment than others then this just means that some suffer the eternal punishment for a longer period of time. One may suffer eternal punishment for one day another may suffer eternal punishment for two days.
Hey!! Guess who else will be rubbing elbows with Calv…I mean Pipe…I mean Edw…I mean MacD?