The Evangelical Universalist Forum

In All Likelihood George MacDonald Went to Hell

Practices Christian Living
#116

That makes sense of this scripture:

Now it’s said that the beast and false prophet were there a thousand years before the devil. But with God a thousand years is like a day. Tormented day and night forever and ever is a way of saying the torment is eternal. Just as Sodom and Gomorrah underwent the punishment of eternal fire but it’s not still burning today. It was the eternal fire of God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. With new resurrected bodies those in the lake of fire experience suffering and torment that is eternal in it’s strength and intensity. But like Christ on the cross it lasts for only a few hours or days. The punishment is therefore eternal in this sense.

What do you think Paidion?

#117

Well…I think that is an interesting view, S. Michael. It certainly provides a better view of God’s character than that of everlasting torment, and also makes sense out of the “eternal” fire you mentioned that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:7).

However, I think it more realistic to understand “αινιος” as meaning “lasting” since it is so frequently used in secular Greek writings as well as events in the NT, the Septuagint, the writings of Josephus, and the ante-Nicene fathers to describe events that lasted only a short time. And translating “αινιος” as “lasting” fits the “eternal” fire you mentioned that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, since that, too, lasted a rather short length of time relative to “millions and billions” of years.

#118

What about forever and ever or ages unto the ages? Are you saying that’s lasting? That phrase seems more like long lasting which can also mean eternal. And what do you do with the metaphysical aspect? I’m referring to Jonathan Edwards argument.

As long as the intensity of the suffering is infinite then it could last only a few hours or days. This would be eternal punishment.

In the human realm and courts there are different degrees of sin with different punishments. But since all sin is ultimately against God then in His judgment and courtroom they are all the same in His eyes:

In one sense, all sins are equal. “The wages of sin is death …”, refers to all sin, in thought, word, or deed. But if you say there is no sense where they’re all equal and some deserve more punishment than others then this just means that some suffer the eternal punishment for a longer period of time. One may suffer eternal punishment for one day another may suffer eternal punishment for two days.

#119

Hey!! Guess who else will be rubbing elbows with Calv…I mean Pipe…I mean Edw…I mean MacD?

frontpagemag.com/point/26863 … greenfield

#120

Hey!! Guess who else will be rubbing elbows with Calv…I mean Pipe…I mean Edw…I mean MacD?

frontpagemag.com/point/26863 … greenfield

#121

Even Hitler could have repented before he died Dave. It doesn’t seem likely. But it’s possible.

#122

Paidion,

Here’s the full argument. What do you do with this?

Now, as I showed you from the scripture above there is a sense in which all sins are equal in that they separate us from God’s mercy. But there is also a sense in which some are worse than others. They could all still merit infinite punishment as in eternal separation in God’s realm or courtroom but have differing intensity of pain. Just as heaven is eternal but there are different rewards in heaven. Just as in the human realm and courts there are different degrees of crimes with different punishments. The eternal separation of the heart from God’s mercy causes it to harden. Therefore the longer in hell the more hatred people develop for God. They don’t want God as they refuse to love because of hardened hearts. The pruning is for the body of Christ. The bad is cut off so that the body can grow better. The correction takes place as the sheep are separated from the goats. The goats depart from Christ and their hearts grow harder and harder.

#123

I think when Edwards used “infinite punishment” and “the eternity of punishment” he meant “unending punishment” and not to infinite intensity within a finite time frame.

#124

I changed the part about infinite intensity. I don’t see any flaws in*** his*** argument. Do you?

#125

What Edwards argument shows and what he scriptures I gave above show is that there is a sense in which all sins are equal in that they all eternally separate our hearts from God’s mercy. Of course, there’s another sense in which some sins are worse than others. So, with the eternal separation comes different degrees of torment in hell just as there are different rewards in eternal life. The eternal separation of the heart from God’s mercy causes it to harden. Therefore the longer in hell the more hatred people develop for God and the more corrupt they become. You don’t get better without God’s mercy you get worse. People in hell don’t want God as they refuse Him because of hardened hearts. The pruning is for the body of Christ. The bad is cut off so that the body can grow better. The correction takes place as the sheep are separated from the goats. The goats depart from Christ and their hearts grow harder and harder as they become more wicked. This is the eternal punishment.

#126

John Piper explains this perfectly. Some sins are worse than others and there will be different degrees of guiltiness and torment in hell just as there are different rewards in eternal life. But, as Edwards argument shows and the Bible states, in another sense all sin (big and small sins) is against God and therefore causes the heart to eternally separate from His mercy. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ3CN1p86Kw

#127

I disbelieve that God punishes people in the sense of penalty for what they “deserve.”
I believe that ALL of God’s “punishments” are remedial—just as a good human father corrects his children.

1 Like
#128

So the good father should correct his child not because the child deserves it, but because the child needs it for her/his own good?

#129

EXACTLY

#130

Every time I see this title I just chuckle… But then cry that someone would actually take the time to post such a thing about the destiny of another.

#131

I’ve come across RC & EO who are convinced - not just saying it’s likely - that Judas Iscariot went to hell. I don’t know what the OP means by “hell”, but they understood it as the kind of “hell” where those who go there will never cease suffering torments for the endless ages of eternity. What does that say about the Love of God Omnipotent? Does it have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

#132

And I’m sure you will find Protestants, who also believe this. But It’s NOT an OFFICIAL position, of either the RC or EO churches.

I think we should be focused on positive thoughts…Like we find in the TV evangelist Joel Osteen. Who always begins his program - with a joke. And I heard a great one - on the BBC news.

2 former Star Trek series actors were talking. And the date was May 4. So the one asked:

What’s today’s date?

The other actor said:

May the fourth.

To which the first actor replied:

Be with you.

#133

What leads you to this conclusion?

Over the years I’ve come across some RC articles & forum posts that take the view that the official RCC position is that there is a hell which will be populated by human beings who will suffer there forever. For example:

"To put things in simple common sense terms, everyone knows that the Catholic Church and the wider traditional Christian Church has always taught that there is a heaven and there is a hell. Ignoring the theological glosses - limbo and purgatory - Christian and Catholic teaching has been clear that upon death, some men will go to heaven, where they will dwell with God forever, and some men will go to hell, where they will dwell with Satan and the other damned, forever. This teaching is firmly based on the words of our Lord in the Bible. Open it up to any place where hell is mentioned, and you will find Jesus stating it, always in strong terms."http://mahoundsparadise.blogspot.ca/2017/07/pope-francis-appoints-universalist-all.html

"The Council of Florence defined the traditional teaching in 1442, making use of the strong words of Augustine’s disciple, Fulgentius of Ruspe ( 468-533):

" “The holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and proclaims that none of those who are outside the Catholic Church-not only pagans, but Jews also, heretics and schismatics-can have part in eternal life, but will go into eternal fire, ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’, unless they are gathered into that Church before the end of life.” http://archive.churchsociety.org/churchman/documents/Cman_095_4_Fairhurst.pdf
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

"123. The Council of Trent spoke once of fear of hell as a motive for imperfect contrition, but offered no account of hell and the punishment of eternal loss.136 The Catechism of the Council of Trent, however, made hell a part of its instruction on two articles of the Apostles’ Creed. First, to clarify Christ’s descent into hell, the Catechism states that what is properly called “hell” is not the temporary dwelling of the pre-Christian righteous, to which Christ descended, but is instead "that most loathsome and dark prison in which the souls of the damned are tormented with the unclean spirits in eternal and inextinguishable fire.“137”

“124. Then, in its account of Christ’s return to judge the living and the dead, the Catechism dwells on the sentence with which Christ the Judge, according to Mt. 25:41, will condemn the wicked who refused mercy to the needy. Their heaviest punishment comes from being told, “Depart from me,” to suffer an eternal pain of loss in banishment from the sight of God. Being relegated to “eternal fire” indicates the sense of pain that they will suffer without end. Then, the punishment of hell was “prepared for the devil and his angels,” showing that the lost lack kindly companionship since they are forever with wicked demons.138”
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

#134

The subtopic I am referring to, is that Judas is DEFINITIVELY in hell. Which is something that neither the RC NOR EO churches - officially teaches. TECHNICALLY, he committed suicide. And there different RC, EO and Protestant opinions - on the matter of suicide. And “technically”, Judas was a Christian…

As far as hell goes, it is a teaching of the RC, EO and Protestant churches. UNFORTUNATELY, ECT is the prevailing viewpoint .

#135

Well Origen, I don’t think there’s any Sciptural evidence that ANY human being is in Hell yet (or indeed in Heaven either for that matter) Indeed, the apostle Paul wrote:

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” (1Co 15:32)

Clearly, Paul seems to have been saying that without the future resurrection, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry—get as much out of this life as possible because there would be nothing more.

Indeed, earlier in the chapter, he indicates that if there is no resurrection,

Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (vs 18,19)

But how about AFTER the resurrection takes place? Won’t there be many who go to Hell then? Undoubtedly.
But another VERY early catholic, Origen (185-254 A.D.) believed it to be not a place or condition of eternal punishment but a place or condition of correction:

…God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician…the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health… —De Principiis II.x.6

The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached… —De Principiis III.vi.6