In All Likelihood R.C. Sproul Went To Hell

[St_Michael]

In all likelihood R.C. Sproul went to hell. He could have received a soften heart before he died and escaped the lake of fire. But you know how people get fixed in their beliefs. R.C. Sproul thought that the modern church was wimpy and held to the machoism of John Piper and the “young, restless, and reformed” movement. R.C. Sproul thought it was godly to be aggressive and macho like John Piper. This is in part due to his acceptance of self-esteem. He taught that Reformed theology places the highest value on man because they were created in the image of God. But like the psychologist Richard Beck has stated, It’s the self that must die. We become poor in spirit. It’s only then that we receive the kingdom of heaven. The new Calvinism teaches a macho Christianity. Johnathan Edwards warned us about this:

As some are much mistaken concerning the nature of true boldness for Christ, so they are concerning the nature of Christian zeal. It is indeed a flame, but a sweet one, or rather it is the heat and fervor of a sweet flame…If therefore we see any of the followers of Christ, in the midst of the most violent, unreasonable and wicked opposition, of God’s and his own enemies, maintaining under all this temptation, the humility, quietness, and gentleness of a lamb, and the harmlessness, and love, and sweetness of a dove, we may well judge that there is a good soldier of Jesus Christ.~~ Jonathan Edwards

Outward passion and zeal is just as easily the devil’s influence as that of the Holy Spirit. What is unmistakably from God is gentleness, broken heartedness, non-showy humility ~~ Jonathan Edwards

And therefore there is nothing in a true Christian zeal, that is contrary to that spirit of meekness, gentleness, and love, that spirit of a little child, a lamb and dove, that has been spoken of; but it is entirely agreeable to it, and tends to promote it. ~~ Jonathan Edwards

When persons are fierce and violent, and exert their sharp and bitter passions, it shows weakness instead of strength and fortitude… There is a pretended boldness for Christ that arises from no better principle than pride~~ Jonathan Edwards

[JasonPratt]

And this is the (not-yet-deleted-and-replaced) thread that you decided to put out for Christmas week.

I guess you’re being consistent, about seeking attention for yourself anyway. But this sort of thing is verging hard on traipsing over the line of the forum rules. It is especially onerous when aimed at ideological opponents of the forum (Sproul being Calv and thus anti-universalistic), and you are remotely near qualified as a teacher to even speculate about such things much less pronounce on their all-likelihood. I doubt any Christian teacher would be, short of apostolic authority. For someone who wants to praise himself at how well you’re doing struggling against your ego, and trying to teach the rest of us about how to do that, this type of thread loops back over the line into wryly funny.

That said, if this sort of thread upsets forum members then just don’t reply to it. Michael wants attention and when a thread doesn’t get enough he’ll delete it to post something else for his single thread this week (which also voids the spirit of the rule while gaming the mere letter of it), problem solved.

But for the sake of our occasional Calvinistic visitors I’m not letting this thread go unremarked on. This thread’s topic is insulting, at best, in several ways, and while the ad/mods bend over backward to be patient about free speech here (including here obviously, or we’d be acting to clomp on the thread), I think the owners, admins, and mods are going to agree that this thread is, if anything, even more inappropriate than the previous one about how in all likelihood (of Michael’s enlightened judgment) George MacDonald went to hell for who knows how many millions of years.

And for Christmas week, too, Michael. Christ.

[St_Michael]

I’m not seeking attention. Humility is when you reach enlightenment. you become poor in spirit and it leads to gentleness. This from my book called “The Wisdom To Know the Difference” by the psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Mississippi. It’s under the section called “The Self-Esteem Myth”

The myth says that low self-esteem lies at the core of many individual and societal problems…During the last ten years, there has been a major effort by scientists to examine whether this story about the role of self-esteem is true. As it turns out, the answer is no. High self-esteem is related to aggressiveness, bullying, narcissism, egotism, prejudice, and high risk behaviors.

Many years I followed Sproul and it lead me to egotism because of this self-esteem myth. Richard Beck is correct along with all the other mystics.

I think the self has to die. That’s what the bible seems to think. There must be a letting go, a surrendering, an emptying of the self. All efforts to define the self by acts of justification, the accumulation of evidence and data that the self is significant, have to be renounced. ~~ Richard Beck

As someone who has been diagnosed as schizoaffective and received tremendous healing I have to say that the psychologist Richard Beck is spot on here. Here’s the full article:

Self-Esteem as violence

experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2013/09/self-esteem-as-violence.html

Self inflation causes you to be violent. When ego is turned inward then you become violent against yourself. All sin stems from ego. The solution is to deflate ego. From humility all forms of virtue spring and flourish. That’s been my experience and that’s why I agree with Dr. Beck. The way you do this is by emptying yourself. It’s not about thinking highly of yourself. Jesus never did and He gave God the glory. The glory goes to God. When the false self is peeled away the new creation in Christ blossoms. I can tell you from experience that sin stems from ego. Those who have so called “low self esteem” paradoxically feel that way because of an intense desire to be great. It’s the self that must die. Seek the glory of God. As Andrew Murray has stated in his book called “Humility”

Friend, the only thing that can cure you of the desire for man’s praise or the hurt feelings and anger which come when it is not given, is by only seeking the glory that comes from God. Let the glory of the all-glorious God be everything to you. You will be freed from the glory of men and of self, and be content and glad to be nothing. ~~ Andrew Murray

[maintenanceman]

Thanks Jason, you and the other admins are being kind.

Here is a very short story about my dealings with R C Sproul. In my religious walk I came across and flirted with Calvinism. One day I listened to a sermon of Mr. Sproul that said there were no innocent babies. The whole total depravity thing, I wanted to puke. But at the end of the day I realize that R C Sproul was true to his beliefs at that time. And to be honest we all are that, even though we may disagree.

[St_Michael]

Maintanace.

I read R.C. Sproul for many years and his system of being God’s special chosen and the high value and self esteem he places on man lead me to megalomania. I’m nobody special. It’s when I think I’m somebody special that I seek glory for myself. Richard Beck and the other mystics are correct. R.C. Sprouls Calvinism is the doctrine of demons.

[maintenanceman]

Maintanace.

I read R.C. Sproul for many years and his system of being God’s special chosen and the high value and self esteem he places on man lead me to megalomania. I’m nobody special. It’s when I think I’m somebody special that I seek glory for myself. Richard Beck and the other mystics are correct. R.C. Sprouls Calvinism is the doctrine of demons.

I would be interested in the link or book in that Richard Beck says that RC is promoting the doctrine of Demons.

Thanks.

[St_Michael]

Richard doesn’t say that to my knowledge. But based on my experience and the experience of the mystics I say that. I should have made that more clear. Jason Pratt and the administers here defend abuse and abusers.

[maintenanceman]

Richard doesn’t say that to my knowledge. But based on my experience and the experience of the mystics I say that. I should have made that more clear. Jason Pratt and the administers here defend abuse and abusers.

No offence, but maybe you should not make statements about folks when you know they did not say what you claimed… Jason and the admins are here to make sure things go smoothly. They defend all of our rights to view our opinions. That is what a forum is about. Try to enjoy it and we all can learn.

Good Luck…

[anon12438761]

I find it hard to believe that Jason or the admins or for that matter most of us here, who believe the following, could be classed as ‘abusers’

Philippians 2:10-11J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[St_Michael]

I guess we see things differently. I didn’t mean for it to sound that way. I was just saying that Richard Beck and the mystics were correct. And then said R.C. sproul’s Calvinism is the doctrine of demons. Not meaning that Richard said that.

[St_Michael]

Dave,

You support the greatest abuser of them all - Trump. He’s insanely abusive.

[maintenanceman]

I guess we see things differently. I didn’t mean for it to sound that way. I was just saying that Richard Beck and the mystics were correct. And then said R.C. sproul’s Calvinism is the doctrine of demons. Not meaning that Richard said that.

Thanks Michael.

[anon12438761]

Michael - I’ve never said I support Trump. Lots of folks read that into what I DO support: anything Trump does in the interest of America, Which is his job. If he does well, I support it. If he doesn’t, I don’t.

[St_Michael]

He’s a maniac Dave and he abuses women.

[Origen]

I wasn’t aware that saying “Calvinism is a doctrine of demons” is against the rules here, but apparently it is (see below). No doubt some here think that even if they don’t say it.

This forum is dedicated to respectful discussions related to Evangelical Universalism.

Please read the forum rules below:

Primary Rules:

1. We ask all Christians to prayerfully dedicate all forum discussions to our Lord Jesus Christ
2. Forum participants may have any religious or nonreligious beliefs
3. No disrespectful, vulgar or inflammatory comments about any person or any institution*
4. Please introduce yourself and your beliefs in “Getting Started - Introductions”
5. Members may not challenge or rebuke beliefs expressed in “Getting Started - Introductions” while clarifying questions are permitted
6. Please read “Getting Started - Statement Of Faith”
7. All decisions of administrators and moderators are final, apart from reasonable appeals
8. Questions about forum operations or the “Forum Rules and Policies” may be respectfully posted in “Suggestions For Improving This Forum” or sent by PM to a moderator or administrator
9. Problems with moderator decisions may be discussed with moderators only by PM; likewise, no posts may complain about moderator decisions

*For example, we may debate about the validity or invalidity of any point of doctrine in Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam. But in this board we must avoid disrespectful or negative comments about Arminians, Calvinists, Catholics, Unitarians, Jews, Muslims and the schools of Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam.

In other words, nobody may rebuke or condemn others in this forum, apart from rebukes required while moderating the rules and policies of the forum. Likewise, biblical rebukes and condemnations appropriate within the context of a church are not allowed in this forum, apart from rebukes required while moderating the rules and policies of the forum. This forum focuses more along the lines of an academic discussion group instead of a church that enforces biblical doctrines.

Secondary Rules:

1. Members must respond to private messages related to moderation
2. Private messages related to moderation are subject to review by all moderators because the moderators work as a group
3. Members may not cross post a topic in more than one forum category. We understand that most topics can fit into more than one category, but we limit the topic to one category for the sake of the commentators
   (Clarification: ad/mods may move, or may be asked to move, threads from one category to another, leaving behind a ‘shadow topic’, so that people already familiar with looking for it in one category may reach it in the new category by clicking the topic link in the old category. This isn’t the same as double-posting a topic in multiple categories.)
4. Members may not excessively post new topics with minimal followup to the topics

Moderation Guidelines

1. If a member with no history of warnings breaks a board rule, then any moderator has the discretion to edit all or part of the post while formally or informally warning the member by PM
2. If a member with two formal warnings in the previous six months breaks a rule, then any moderator has the discretion to implement a ban lasting from 1 day to 1 month
3. While a member with repeat bans is under a 1-month ban, then any moderator has the discretion to post a poll for a permanent ban; and a quorum majority vote would permanently ban a repeat offender
4. Permanently banned members may request “unbanment” after one year, provided they write an explanation of how they plan to follow the rules; and a quorum majority vote to unban would unban the member; if the vote does not result in unbanment, then the member may request unbanment after another year, and so on.
5. Moderators, when voting on banning a particular member, should consider how much time and action has already been spent moderating that member
6. The presiding moderator for the vote is the first administrator; if the first administrator is unavailable, then the second administrator; if the second administrator is unavailable, then the third administrator; if the third administrator is unavailable, then the moderator with most forum seniority may assume the position of presiding moderator or appoint another as presiding moderator

Last edited by JasonPratt on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

Forum Rules and Policies

**This forum is dedicated to respectful discussions related to Evangelical Universalism. Please read the forum rules below: Primary Rules: We ask all Christians to prayerfully dedicate all forum discussions to our Lord Jesus Christ Forum participants may have any religious or nonreligious beliefs No disrespectful, vulgar or inflammatory comments about any person or any institution* Please introduce yourself and your beliefs in “Getting Started - Introductions” Members may not challenge or re…

[maintenanceman]

I wasn’t aware that saying “Calvinism is a doctrine of demons” is against the rules here, but apparently it is (see below). No doubt some here think that even if they don’t say it.

This forum is dedicated to respectful discussions related to Evangelical Universalism.

Please read the forum rules below:

Primary Rules:

1. We ask all Christians to prayerfully dedicate all forum discussions to our Lord Jesus Christ
2. Forum participants may have any religious or nonreligious beliefs
3. No disrespectful, vulgar or inflammatory comments about any person or any institution*
4. Please introduce yourself and your beliefs in “Getting Started - Introductions”
5. Members may not challenge or rebuke beliefs expressed in “Getting Started - Introductions” while clarifying questions are permitted
6. Please read “Getting Started - Statement Of Faith”
7. All decisions of administrators and moderators are final, apart from reasonable appeals
8. Questions about forum operations or the “Forum Rules and Policies” may be respectfully posted in “Suggestions For Improving This Forum” or sent by PM to a moderator or administrator
9. Problems with moderator decisions may be discussed with moderators only by PM; likewise, no posts may complain about moderator decisions

*For example, we may debate about the validity or invalidity of any point of doctrine in Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam. But in this board we must avoid disrespectful or negative comments about Arminians, Calvinists, Catholics, Unitarians, Jews, Muslims and the schools of Arminianism, Calvinism, Catholicism, Unitarianism, Judaism, and Islam.

In other words, nobody may rebuke or condemn others in this forum, apart from rebukes required while moderating the rules and policies of the forum. Likewise, biblical rebukes and condemnations appropriate within the context of a church are not allowed in this forum, apart from rebukes required while moderating the rules and policies of the forum. This forum focuses more along the lines of an academic discussion group instead of a church that enforces biblical doctrines.

Secondary Rules:

1. Members must respond to private messages related to moderation
2. Private messages related to moderation are subject to review by all moderators because the moderators work as a group
3. Members may not cross post a topic in more than one forum category. We understand that most topics can fit into more than one category, but we limit the topic to one category for the sake of the commentators
   (Clarification: ad/mods may move, or may be asked to move, threads from one category to another, leaving behind a ‘shadow topic’, so that people already familiar with looking for it in one category may reach it in the new category by clicking the topic link in the old category. This isn’t the same as double-posting a topic in multiple categories.)
4. Members may not excessively post new topics with minimal followup to the topics

Moderation Guidelines

1. If a member with no history of warnings breaks a board rule, then any moderator has the discretion to edit all or part of the post while formally or informally warning the member by PM
2. If a member with two formal warnings in the previous six months breaks a rule, then any moderator has the discretion to implement a ban lasting from 1 day to 1 month
3. While a member with repeat bans is under a 1-month ban, then any moderator has the discretion to post a poll for a permanent ban; and a quorum majority vote would permanently ban a repeat offender
4. Permanently banned members may request “unbanment” after one year, provided they write an explanation of how they plan to follow the rules; and a quorum majority vote to unban would unban the member; if the vote does not result in unbanment, then the member may request unbanment after another year, and so on.
5. Moderators, when voting on banning a particular member, should consider how much time and action has already been spent moderating that member
6. The presiding moderator for the vote is the first administrator; if the first administrator is unavailable, then the second administrator; if the second administrator is unavailable, then the third administrator; if the third administrator is unavailable, then the moderator with most forum seniority may assume the position of presiding moderator or appoint another as presiding moderator

Last edited by JasonPratt on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

Forum Rules and Policies

Well, I would be very interested in what everyone will say… Jason and Cindy will no doubt chime in and should.

Good luck all…

[St_Michael]

They’ll probably both protect the abusive doctrines. They’re both blasphemous.

goodnewspost.com/false_gospel_of_self_esteem.htm

THE FALSE GOSPEL OF
SELF-ESTEEM (PRIDE)

COUNSELING

“Christian counseling” has become a very prominent feature of the Church of Jesus Christ. The fact that the general area of “counseling” is rife with the philosophies of man results in great danger that the “wisdom” of this world will infiltrate the message of the Church at the expense of the wisdom of God. A growing deception found in Christian counseling (and throughout society) is the false gospel of “self-esteem” which is incompatible with the Biblical Gospel of the Cross of Jesus Christ.

Increasingly, the counseling mentality is that “low self-esteem” is the root cause of a teenager deciding to engage in pre-marital sex or of a house-wife who is always depressed. In fact, prominent Christian personalities can be heard to claim that society’s greatest problem is that of “low self-esteem”, and that everything from abortion, school drop-outs, teen pregnancy to rape, robbery, and poverty can be solved if only we help people to esteem themselves more highly; to love themselves more and more; and to realize their great self-worth!

Those of us who call ourselves Bible-believing Christians must ask some crucial questions. Is mankind’s problem a lack of self-esteem or is it pride, self-centeredness and rebellion? Is the answer to our problem “building self-esteem” or is it brokenness and repentance at the foot of the Cross? And how about my “self-worth”? Doesn’t God’s Word say that in-and-of my “self” I am worthy of eternal hell?

THE REBELLION OF SELF

The origin of the theology of “selfism” can be found in Isaiah 14:12-14 where Satan’s long list of self-exalting “I will’s” are recorded. Satan then took his message of “Self” to the Garden of Eden in Genesis three where, in the form of the serpent, he told Eve that she could be her own god and decide for herself what is right and wrong. Revelation 12:9 says, “…that serpent, Satan, who deceives the whole world.”

THE CROSS

Far from exalting or esteeming “self”, Jesus says in Matthew 16 that we should deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow him. Jesus says in Matthew 22:34-40 that the two (not three, but two!) greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus wasn’t, also, giving us a third commandment to love ourselves. He was acknowledging that even in our sin nature we love ourselves already: we feed ourselves, we clothe ourselves. He is saying, “Now, go and serve other people like you are already serving yourself.”

The whole Christian life is built upon dying to self and serving God and serving people. We are to get our eyes off of self and fix our “eyes on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2). People-in-need must realize that they are helpless and hopeless, but, “While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8) Through repentance we find forgiveness and then a life of surrender; of trusting and obeying. What we must respond to is, not any sense of our own worth, but the fact that Jesus loves us and has a purpose for our lives, and he wants to use us!

[JasonPratt]

Despite supposedly being blasphemous supporters of abuse, the ad/mods have been aaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuulllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy tolerant of you and your activities over the years, Michael.

Not that we expect gratitude or even common sense in return. (You’re daring on your own supposed spiritual enlightenment, thanks to Buddhist study of all things, to declare various people have in all likelihood or even certainly gone to hell for who knows how many millions of years, but I’m the one who is committing blasphemy somehow??) But I thought I’d point that fact out. You didn’t get temp-banned for the first thread, nor for this one either. You haven’t even been given an official warning.

The institution of the rather complicated rule about spiritually badmouthing other beliefs and the people associated with them, was reluctantly and after great patience put into place by the owners and ad/mods after partisans on the forum nearly tore it apart years ago. Even then we have been highly lenient about enforcing the rules.

We’re being highly lenient about this trollish flamebaiting now, to give the most immediately pertinent example. But we don’t have to be.

[St_Michael]

Sorry Jason but I’m getting better and it is because I have moved away from R.C. Sproul’s Calvinism. It is the exact thing that causes me to experience megalomania. I find that his Calvinism of self-esteem and being highly valued as an image bearer of God and being God’s special chosen exacerbates the mental problem. It places me at the center of the universe with no break in the deterministic chain of logic. Being at the center of everything is just an egoism delusion that paranoid schizophrenics have to an extreme degree. This is why I have become nothing or nobody special. Here’s how Eckhart Tolle describes the mental illness:

The mental illness that is called paranoid schizophrenia, or paranoid for short, is essentially an exaggerated form of ego…The mental illness we call paranoia also manifests another symptom that is an element of every ego, although in paranoia it takes on a more extreme form. The more the sufferer sees himself persecuted, spied on, or threatened by others, the more pronounced becomes his sense of being the center of the universe around whom everything evolves, and the more special and important he feels as the imagined focal point of so many people’s attention.

This has been my experience as well. When my ego deflates and I’m no longer a “somebody” or a special famous person the symptoms subside. I’m no longer boxed in on center stage all the time. The Buddhists, mystics, and psychologists like Richard Beck are correct. The doctrine of self is demonic. We die to self and become poor in spirit. Thanks for your tolerance with me but I’m not changing my views on this. I have experienced this and know it’s the truth.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

This has been my experience as well. When my ego deflates and I’m no longer a “somebody” or a special famous person the symptoms subside. I’m no longer boxed in on center stage all the time. The Buddhists, mystics, and psychologists like Richard Beck are correct. The doctrine of self is demonic. We die to self and become poor in spirit. Thanks for your tolerance with me but I’m not changing my views on this. I have experienced this and know it’s the truth.

Some questions for you, Michael

How is this any different from folks who claim God, speaks to them of the tribulation? And they see the zombie apocalypse happening? At least - for that - I can point to different people…not related or who know each other…who have similar experiences.
Folks get their experiences verified. Catholic and Eastern Orthodox lay folks and clergy, have priests or spiritual guides. The Native Americans, get help from an elder. Folks practicing Zen, consult a Zen master. Tibetan practitioners consult a Tibetan lama. Have you consulted anyone of spiritual authority - to validate your experiences?
How do you know, that Michael is not going to hell - for trillions of years? What is your criteria - for saying you are saved and someone else is damned? Even the Roman Catholic church, won’t say someone is DEFINITELY in hell.

I can ask other questions. But let’s start, with the 3 above.