The Evangelical Universalist Forum

In All Likelihood R.C. Sproul Went To Hell

Practices Christian Living
#21

The words of the psychiatrist David D. Burns ring true

After you achieve unconditional self-esteem, you can climb another step up the ladder if you want. On the next step, you can adopt the even more radical position that there is no such thing as self-esteem…On this level, you can discard the notion of self-esteem entirely and refuse to deal with it. This solution to the problem of is in the Buddhist tradition because self-esteem is rejected as a useless illusion. Giving up your self-esteem once you have discovered it may sound like a negative notion. It may feel like a loss and seem like something inside you dies. All of us naturally want to feel special and worthwhile. However, there is a rebirth, because the death of your pride and ego can lead to new life and to a more profound vision. When you discover that you are nothing, you have nothing to lose, and you inherit the world…Instead of worrying about whether you are worthwhile each day you can have goals that involve learning, personal growth, helping others, and so on.

#22

Randy,

When you die to self you reach enlightenment. R.C. Sproul’s Calvinism contradicts this. He could have died to self before he died. Even Hitler could have found enlightenment before he died.

#23

Sorry, Michael. Folks can claim to be “enlightened”. But enlightenment validation - is passed on. It’s a linage. Whether it’s Zen Masters, Tibetan Lamas, Sufi mystics, or RC and EO mystics. The RC and EO churches, declare someone is a saint. Another Zen master, says someone is enlightened. Another Tibetan lama, says someone is enlightened. Another Sufi sage, says someone is enlightened. Otherwise, it’s just New Age balony.

#24

I’ve changed Randy. My whole family sees it. My old friends see it and my psychologist sees it. I’m different now.

#25

I’m glad you changed. I hope it’s for the better. And you embrace more of the love, that Christ talked about. And more of the wisdom and compassion, that Buddha talked about.

#26

Exactly Randy.

compassion and gentleness. Kindness. It’s the opposite of R.C. Sproul’s self-esteem and specially chosen.

#27

It’s taken me years to get where I’m at today. I’m happy and I communicate just fine now. I’ve never been able to do that my whole life. Not you or any of the so called experts of EU are going to manipulate me into thinking I’m not okay when I am. I’m clean and sober and losing weight. I’m doing just fine. No thanks to R.C. Sproul’s Calvinism.

#28

You have no idea what you are talking about. It isn’t your business to know who goes where. Besides, your theology changes weekly. So I am not really sure anyone even takes your opinion seriously. That said, I do not wish any I’ll of you, nor to make you feel less than anyone else. I don’t know your past nor trials, but to a forum regular, you are not stable enough to engage in any meaningful conversation. You don’t even know your own position. You remind me a bit like Donald Trump’s in that regard. All the best, but please refrain from speaking poorly of the dead.

#29

You just bring up my past Gabe when I was manic and off my meds. You know nothing about me and my life. Sproul could have died to self before he died but He taught the false self-esteem gospel. This is contradictory to the true death to self born again experience that I’ve had. And you obviously haven’t or you wouldn’t continue to bring up my past. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

#30

That’s true. You didn’t use to post topics like “In All Likelihood This or That Christian Went To Hell” before, to give one very pertinent recent example.

Except maybe in some of your Calvinist phases. Admittedly, I don’t recall you clearly doing that before (and what vague little I recall may be my imagination), so maybe this is a new thing that you didn’t even do back in any of your Calv phases. But this is, after all, exactly the sort of thing hardcore Calvs would say, in their spiritual judgment, about fellow Christians who aren’t elect enough. I mean who aren’t given the light enough. I mean who aren’t enlightened.

At least the other things in your life are improvements. So… on the balance, yay? Sacrifice those other Christians ideologically to bolster your improvement, and to help you feel better about yourself. Surely that’s the best and really only way to keep your gains. They’ve died now, so what does it matter really? Or even whether you’re accurate in your sacrificial judgment of them (which you certainly weren’t about GMacD)? What really matters is how you feel. I mean how your death of ego feels, to you.

But if you decide to shift gears to someone on this forum, and we catch you at it – I mean going after one of the non ad/mod members, to make your egotistic death-to-self feel better, it’s basically our job description to take insults, we have the power, that’s fair – that will be as far as you go here. For a while anyway.

What you do for attention when this thread burns itself out, and other things don’t seem to be working (or seem to be working less after threads like this, perhaps) will be what counts.

#31

Elect enough?? :laughing: :laughing:

#32
#33

Excellent book on the self-esteem heresy as taught by Sproul called “Biblical Counseling and the Self-Esteem Heresy” by Jay N. Forrest

amazon.com/Biblical-Counseling-Self-Esteem-Jay-Forrest/dp/1519547765/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1515012980&sr=8-2&keywords=self+esteem+heresy

Self esteem is ones overall evaluation of their own worth ( a judgement of ones self). The Buddhist path it is most certainly not a pursuit of self-esteem, in fact, it is the complete opposite. Self esteem is a judgement and judgments are expressions of desires. If I am judging myself based on social construct, that is desire. And, as a root principle of Buddhism in general, desires lead to suffering. Therefore, Buddhism is not a pursuit of self-esteem.

#34

When the public result is indistinguishable from continuing to seek self-esteem, and even to accelerate that seeking in ways not seen previously, then you shouldn’t be surprised if those exterior to your self regard you as continuing to seek self-esteem (this time using talk about eliminating self-esteem and the self to do so). This is also why people continue to bring up your past – you aren’t doing any differently, except perhaps worse than before.

In your off-forum life that may be significantly different, and if so, great; but your behavior here still shows strong signs of seeking attention for your self. Until that actually changes, that’s all we have to go by, and it still fits prior patterns of behavior.

#36

Just letting people know from my past struggles in R.C. Sproul’s theology that I have succumbed to seeking self-esteem because of his teachings in the “Hunger for Significance”. I’m going the opposite direction from my past into one that is humble in that it doesn’t place such a high significance on man. According tp the psychologist Richard Beck in “Slavery To Death” it was in my neurotic suppression of the fear of death that I revert to my defense mechanisms of survival that leads to the lie of the pursuit of self-esteem. One who does not fear death is outside the tyranny of the devil. It’s the neurotic fear of death that ego stems from and this leads to sinful practices. Whether it is suppressed or not. It leads to the pursuit of a self-esteem project as one becomes enslaved to the principalities and powers. It’s the idol of all idols. The great force sitting behind all the existential fetishes of success and significance. In the past my self-esteem was so wrapped up in my worldview that I perceived an attack on my theology as an attack on me. Because of this I would become defensive when I was off my medicine and became manic. I was lost in confusion. I’m doing better now with less ego. The search for significance and self-esteem is being enslaved by the demonic forces and false teachings of R.C. Sproul. So, no you’re not going to convince me of your manipulative lies that I’m seeking attention because I speak of the truth of R.C Sproul’s heresy. For those who want to go deeper I recommend “The Slavery of Death” by Richard Beck:

amazon.com/Slavery-Death-Richard-Beck/dp/1620327775/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515194548&sr=8-1&keywords=slavery+of+death

#37

Anyone that makes youtube videos is seeking attention. When I point the truth out about a heresy or prove you wrong or disagree with you you claim that I am seeking attention. This is known as a psychological projection.

#39

I’m going to qaz. Just needed to be clear on my motives here.

#40

Right. I believe that. :unamused:

#41

I fully agree with that. My point was that he’s preaching at us about eliminating ego and self-esteem while going farther than he previously did (such as with threads like this) in doing things to seek self-esteem.

If he hadn’t started creating threads like this, his flagrantly self-serving double-standard would just be kind of amusing, if a bit tiresome.

I don’t have a problem with people seeking self-esteem, per se, though I think it would be better to do so in service to someone else.

I have a problem in principle with people gaming the system to bolster their self-esteem; and I have a problem in principle with people sacrificing other people to bolster their self-esteem; and I have a problem in principle with people congratulating themselves and preaching at other people about getting rid of the ego and self-esteem while still doing (and even accelerating) the things that involve egotistically seeking self-esteem.

Combining those three principles into practice? Then I get worried. It means someone will cheerfully game the system to sacrifice other people to bolster their self-esteem while assiduously avoiding or denying that this is what they’re doing. Language about getting rid of self-criticism along the way doesn’t reduce my worries about this volatile mixture.

But Michael hasn’t exactly stepped over a line yet. Just toed over it very, very carefully to see how far he can get away with things. That isn’t completely unusual around here. :mrgreen:

#42

I’ll share a part of a contemplation message today. From the email of RC priest Richard Rohr at https://cac.org/. It might be useful, as it touches on self-esteem and the Christian message: