The Evangelical Universalist Forum

In All Likelihood R.C. Sproul Went To Hell

#41

I fully agree with that. My point was that he’s preaching at us about eliminating ego and self-esteem while going farther than he previously did (such as with threads like this) in doing things to seek self-esteem.

If he hadn’t started creating threads like this, his flagrantly self-serving double-standard would just be kind of amusing, if a bit tiresome.

I don’t have a problem with people seeking self-esteem, per se, though I think it would be better to do so in service to someone else.

I have a problem in principle with people gaming the system to bolster their self-esteem; and I have a problem in principle with people sacrificing other people to bolster their self-esteem; and I have a problem in principle with people congratulating themselves and preaching at other people about getting rid of the ego and self-esteem while still doing (and even accelerating) the things that involve egotistically seeking self-esteem.

Combining those three principles into practice? Then I get worried. It means someone will cheerfully game the system to sacrifice other people to bolster their self-esteem while assiduously avoiding or denying that this is what they’re doing. Language about getting rid of self-criticism along the way doesn’t reduce my worries about this volatile mixture.

But Michael hasn’t exactly stepped over a line yet. Just toed over it very, very carefully to see how far he can get away with things. That isn’t completely unusual around here. :mrgreen:

#42

I’ll share a part of a contemplation message today. From the email of RC priest Richard Rohr at https://cac.org/. It might be useful, as it touches on self-esteem and the Christian message:

#43

From my book “Humility of Heart” by the Catholic Fr. Cajetan Mary da Bergamo:

Empty vessels not a few (4 Kgs 4:3) And He also fills with His grace those hearts which are emptied of self - that is to say, which have neither self-esteem nor self-confidence and do not rely upon their own strength.

This is the way of the truly humble: he does not esteem himself for his possessions or for his knowledge, but regards these all as nothing, because he regards himself also as nothingness.

It is very easy for us to fall into this fault of praising ourselves, until it becomes a habit, and with this habit so opposed to humility, how can we be humble? What good qualities have we of our own for which we can praise ourselves? All the good that is in us comes from God, and to Him alone we must give praise and honor. When we praise ourselves we are usurping glory, which is due to God alone. Even though in praising ourselves we sometimes refer all the honor to God, it matters little; when there is no absolute necessity, it is better to abstain from self-praise, for although we refer all to the glory of God with our lips, our ingenious and subtle self-love cannot fail to appropriate it secretly.

I am poor in soul, without virtue or merit, full of iniquity and malice, and yet I esteem myself and love my esteem so much that I am troubled if others do not esteem me also.

Make known unto me O Lord, mine own wretchedness, that of myself I am nothing, know nothing, and possess nothing but my sins, and deserve nothing but hell.

We must acknowledge that one of the five reasons we do not live in this necessary humility is that we do not fear the justice of God…The soul conscious of the innumerable sins he has committed, aware that it has indeed deserved hell, and that from one moment to another it may be condemned to hell by Divine Justice, fears the wrath of God; and this fear causes the soul to remain humble before Him; and if he does not feel this humility, it can only be because the fear of God is wanting.

But in reality a lie dwells essentially in that pride which makes us esteem ourselves above what we are. Whoever regards himself as more than mere nothingness is filled with pride and is a liar. It is St. Paul’s statement: "If any man think himself to be something, whereas he is nothing he deceiveth himself (Gal. 6:3)

The more esteemed you are on judgment day the worse it will be for you.

#44

I’ll pass on thinking of myself as having no worth. Bye Michael.

#45

I forgot one:

We may say with St. Thomas that this craving of ours to be esteemed, respected, and honored is an effect of Original sin…And therefore I must draw this conclusion, that if I will not mortify myself with humility - that is to say, crush my self-love and craving for esteem - I shall be excluded as a follower of Jesus Christ, and by such an exclusion, I shall forfeit His grace and be eternally exiled from participating in His glory.

Fr. Cajetan Mary da Bergamo

#46

I have enough pain in my life without being self-hating. If I believed even half the stuff you promote, Michael, I’d be completely miserable. I can’t imagine you’re a happy person, I’m sad to say.

#47

The pleasures of humility are really the most refined, inward, and exquisite delights in the world - Jonathan Edwards

#48

Oh Lord, how can I be insulted when I deserve to be tortured by demons forever? The hard bitter bread of abasement has become a sweet honeycomb to my lips. Thou hast humbled me emptying me of self-love. Vanity, vanity! All is vanity! Nothing matters but to love You and serve You dear God. For You are my joy and delight. You are everything and I am nothing. It’s the poor in spirit who receive the riches of heaven. Though I’m worthless I have found the eternal delight in Christ - Treasures unfathomable.

#49

qaz… Religion is all about folks believing what others tell them is true. Sometimes folks are too lazy, or too ignorant or too busy to figure it out for themselves. This is what Religion caters to. Sometimes there are chemical issues or genetic pre dispositions… hang in there. :wink:

#50

Michael, it’s been over a week since you said you were leaving. Have you changed your mind about that again ?

#51

It’s like me. I had to investigate the truth - regarding the Zombie Apocalypse - during the tribulation. Before seeing the light of day. :wink:

The truth will come a knocking. Or even ring your bell :exclamation:

#52

I was curious to see what kind of person would declare another was going to hell and I found out. He also passes huge amounts of judgment on other people - no humility there, and absolutely nothing that is edifying. I won’t be clicking on any more of his posts.

#53

I never declared R.C. Sproul was in hell. But given his heresy on self-esteem that he would go there if his heart wasn’t softened before he died. Even Hitler could have found enlightenment and humility before he died.

We may say with St. Thomas that this craving of ours to be esteemed, respected, and honored is an effect of Original sin…And therefore I must draw this conclusion, that if I will not mortify myself with humility - that is to say, crush my self-love and craving for esteem - I shall be excluded as a follower of Jesus Christ, and by such an exclusion, I shall forfeit His grace and be eternally exiled from participating in His glory.

Fr. Cajetan Mary da Bergamo

R.C. Sproul taught the exact opposite of this.

#54

Michael, when are you going to leave?

#55

I appreciate that Jepne, but maybe that’s how we learn to start to help others. Yep, no edification for us but as we dialog with each other, those who are watching see things. We all affect change. Our contributions in the smallest things in life can lead to one person changing.

Worth considering at least aye? :wink:

#56

Perhaps a song will help :question: :laughing: