I was just watching The Morning Show, and I heard the speaker challenging someone and saying, ‘That’s a load of sheep’. The word ‘sheep’ was obviously replacing a more well known object within that sentence. That seems to be the flavor of the day; being irreverent. Certainly unbelievers have no need to monitor their attitudes, but do we as believers follow Christ, or do we follow the irreverence of the spirit of the world?
Stephen K Haught says in The Dangers of an Irreverent Attitude:
If this is so, then the church has been more so transformed by the world than the world has been transformed by God.
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2
Does this reflect something about the broad road? Does this reflect something about the state of our faith? Does this say something about the parable of the 10 virgins? Does this say something about the state of the seven revelation churches? Is Stephen Haught right? Is our irreverent language a pulse of our spiritual being?
I must start this by admitting that I am not a Greek/Hebrew scholar (sometimes I really wish I were). But from certain things I have read by people who were, I have gotten the impression that Jesus himself has been sarcastic and/or ironic at times. I don’t know if this matches the irreverent attitude you’re talking about or not, but it gives me a certain sense of peace, because…well, let’s face it: irreverence is entertaining. I love irreverent people - I honestly do. Sarcastic humor is a love language of mine.
For example - Jesus called the Pharisees white washed tombs. What he was saying was that they had spent all this time polishing their outside appearance, but inside they stunk and were full of rotting carcases.
I think a lot of the humor of Jesus’ teachings are completely lost on us because we don’t know enough about the culture. For example, I was just reading something the other day (wish I could remember what it was) that was pointing out that when Jesus told his audience that if someone sued them for their coat, they should give away their shirt with it, this was a very humorous statement: it would be embarrassing to the sue-er to have his debtor standing there stark naked like that.
Now, of course, we ought to be very careful of how we use sarcasm/irony/irreverence, because we can hurt people with our words.
The first thing I thought of, Steve, when you had only written your first paragraph, was Paul counting his former life as a pile of (expletive). That was an alternative reading in one of my many many e-sword translations, and I found it funny and a little (a very little) shocking, and I thought how we in the “church world” worry about words like this when there are things so much more distressing to consider – still, you don’t see Paul throwing it around all the time, either.
I think Haught has a point. Certainly we lack the reverence for one another that I remember people having in my own childhood (in the '60s). And even then, people could be pretty crass. But the idea of a “Grand Theft Auto,” even if we had conceived of video games at all, would have been WAY out there in never-ever land. Bad things HAPPENED, to be sure, but they weren’t so, well, expected, accepted . . . we couldn’t “play” with the idea the way it’s played with today. To be honest, taking too close a look at the things we expect and accept today in America makes me feel sad and ill. I don’t want to say “sick,” because that has connotations of superiority and disgust. I don’t feel disgusted; more like dismayed and right up to the edge of despairing. I never would have imagined things could have gotten so very, very dismal and dark so very quickly.
The last time I drove into Florida (maybe 12 years ago), it had been ten years since I’d been there (where I grew up). Along the interstate there were billboard after billboard for “escort services,” which to you non-Americans is a covert way of saying prostitution with a wink and a nod. Prostitution is illegal in Florida, but the girls advertised “for rent” looked very . . . dressed for the job. You wouldn’t see that in South Dakota (where I live now). Not at all. You’d never have seen it in Florida either, 25 years ago. Vegas, of course, is a lot more blatant and trashy about the whole thing. Nevada is the only state in the union to have legalized prostitution. It’s hugely distressing to pass by all the sale bills littering the sidewalks with pictures of young women all made up for consumption. No reverence. No love. No respect.
Yes, I think it does trace back to our society’s attitudes toward our Father. If we knew, really knew that we are all brothers and sisters, could we stomach using one another as commodities? Doubtless parts of the world are as bad or worse, and doubtless there have been times and eras as bad or worse – none quite so militarized, but morally as bad, certainly. Unquestionably the heart of this nation has always been diseased with self-satisfied cruelty or at least unknowing indifference toward certain people and people groups. Still it hurts to see this – these signs of putrescence and decay – creeping in where something at least partially wholesome (if naively ignorant), dreaming of becoming better, once dwelt.
Have you heard of David Henson? He’s one of my favorite bloggers. He had an interesting take on the use of the word for expletive that I think you’re talking of - in this post, he argues that the word we substitute for a natural bodily function is much worse, because it is a violent and unnatural act.
Well, he certainly has a point there. Let’s see . . . I’m unwilling to say sh1t, and no, I don’t say sh00t . . . what should I say? I have to admit, usually I go with something that’s probably far worse than either, but I don’t mean it! I don’t really want to damn “it,” whatever “it” is, or anything or anyone else, either. (And I only say it when the dog really REALLY won’t come. He seems to respond to that when nothing else will do.
I know what you mean - I’ve never been in the habit of using expletives, but I’ve always had my substitute words which really aren’t any better if I’m honest. Really, it’s not the words that matter but the attitude of the heart, and I know I need to work on mine, though I’m improved from where I once was. I need to take up yoga or something.
This is exactly my sentiments. I am not disgruntled by the culture that surrounds us, although it is not something I personally want because it is at odds with my own christian culture. You must see this in your nursing (my wife is also a nurse). There is a recognition that each different culture needs to be given the consideration which respects that culture. Here in Australia we have the Aboriginal and Western cultures coming to terms with each other, and in the health industry they are leading the way for recognition of each cultures differences. When it comes to the Western culture and the Christian culture (or biblical culture), we see two very different cultures at play. The church, during the middle ages, initially tried to make the world Catholic. Since the 18th century, the agenda has become reversed - to make the world English (including the Churches). Now, of course, the world has become American, and this may yet change to an Asian influence.
Throughout all of these changes, we (christians) are a people intended to be rooted in the culture of God, not the pervading influence of the dominant culture of the day. That is what has happened though - we grow up so totally immersed is secular culture that we have adopted all of the nuisances, language and gestures of that culture. We adapt to the ideals of the secular culture, and we tailor our ministry and evangelism around seeking their approval and support. This seems like a very interesting development in the church culture. All of a sudden the lines have become blurred between one culture and the other. The modern church is becoming a synthesis of the historical faith and secular culture.
That is an example of the **Danger of Irreverence **that Haught implied. Because the church becomes the amalgam of two cultures, what is at first alarming is very soon adopted and sewn into the christian fabric. Dancing girls and heavy rock are part of the secular culture… but wait… we can have them too! Soon the historical church will become so irrelevant that the churches will be seen as out-dated relics of past delusions, and we are helping to sell this slogan. Our very attitudes become evidence that the church is out-dated. Christians, more than anyone, are helping to tear down the church. When we buy into the slogans and irreverence of the secular culture, we are admitting that they are right and we are wrong.
That paragraph of yours (above) is a real gem. You are very thoughtful and discerning. God Bless Cindy.
Please do not read this post if ‘bad language’ offends you
Geoff, you’re totally on the ball here, mate. Words are just words. They mean nothing, ultimately. It’s the intent behind them that matters. I can spit total vituperation on another person without resorting to expletives, say all kinds of horrendously unkind things without actually ‘swearing’, and be an evil, selfish ****.
And conversely I can use four-letter words, which I personally do a lot of the time, and still be somebody who cares - somebody who gives a shit about other people.
Me, I don’t think God gives two good fucks about what we call “bad language”. I think he looks beyond the words and sees the heart. I guess it’s probably a good idea to refrain from excessive “effing and jeffing”, but not because the word “fuck” is any worse (or better) than the word “tea-pot”. It’s just a word. It has no intrinsic value, or otherwise.
I reckon some of you guys here will be offended at my use of words like ‘fuck’ in this post. But I ask you to think about it - is the thing that the word ‘fuck’ refers to - ie sexual intercourse - a ‘bad’ thing? And if it isn’t, why is that word any more offensive than any other word in the English language? It is simply a colloquialism, a word of the people. Can it really be sinful to use such words? I think not.
Johnny, everyone has their own version of truth and their own experience of God. You are what you are. If this is how you want to be portrayed, then that is up to you. You don’t offend me, but you do more damage to your own spirituality IMO. There is always a price that is paid for every freedom and every action, Nothing is free.
Geoff, yes I agree with you. And I think we always will want something to say when we wish to emphasize or exclaim. Somehow “poot” and “sugar” just don’t do it! I’m not sure what the answer is. Maybe I could say “dang.” Most likely the dog couldn’t tell the difference. My Christian girlfriends wouldn’t be offended at that, though it’s just a corruption of “damn.” I have this kind of idea I shouldn’t do anything in private I’d be ashamed to have them know about.
Johnny, I have to admit it kind of makes me cringe to read that. (And you know NO ONE reads things at the top in bold print, right? Bold print makes it a title, and who cares about titles? ) But yes, technically speaking f*** is just a bodily function, but it’s a crude way to put it. You’d sound pretty weird going around yelling “coitus” every time you stubbed your toe or jammed your finger, though. I think the reason we object, in addition to Victorian attitudes being passed down, is that it’s a private and holy thing (or should be) made coarse and common.
That said, I can hardly judge you for using it. You’re a genuine and beautiful brother and if you have the odd rough edge, who am I to object? You are who you are. Now my husband, on the other hand . . . when HE says that, he’d just better watch out. I know he’d never say it in front of his mother or sisters, so he’d better not say it in front of me either!
Yes I do think there are times and places when it is inappropriate to use expletives. And I try to moderate my language according to the situation I’m in. If I think somebody would be offended by me swearing I would try not to do so. I also try my best not to swear in front of my grandchildren.
Is it inappropriate to swear on this forum? Perhaps. (And those of you who know me will know it is not something I do habitually or wantonly.) But what I said in my earlier post was said quite deliberately to make a point. And now the point has been made I will put a sock in my potty mouth .
I have read that the evangelist Tony Campolo often begins a speech by saying: “I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a shit. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
I think Campolo is spot on here in skewering the wrongheaded false piety of many Christians. Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t mean to say that Christians who are offended by bad language are necessarily guilty of false piety; no, only the ones who spend more time fulminating because Janet Jackson’s breast was glimpsed for a nanosecond during the Superbowl than they do getting mad about all the appalling injustice in the world.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I yam what I yam. I am a flawed, sinful human being trying to make sense of a wicked, messed up world. I am, to coin a phrase, just the way God made me. I know that God will judge me for the things I’ve said and done (or not done) in my life. And I fully expect that to be a very uncomfortable experience indeed. But I think God will be far more concerned with the times I’ve hurt people or let them down or failed to help them than he will about me giving voice to a bit of choice Anglo Saxon.
Anyway, I’m sorry if I have upset you in any way. I respect your beliefs and your integrity.
You are good fella, and I see why Christ would choose you for His Kingdom. God calls us from interesting and diverse places from within the earth. We all have different backgrounds and experiences, and we are not all going to reach the same level of spiritual progress as the apostles reached. Some will, but 99.9% will not. I certainly never will. God knows the cross we carry and the paths we must traverse. It is easy to pass judgment on each other when no one knows any of these conditions we come from or problems we deal with. That is why so many of us so easily trust God but not each other. We trust that God knows our inner struggles, and He does, whereas our judgmental neighbor will quickly scorn us.
I struggle with a condition after an accident I had. I cracked my skull and got fluid on my brain, and I have sensations in my scone that makes me feel like I have pressure in my brain. Concentration is sometimes difficult, I get fatigue, and I have had severe memory problems. It has sometimes given me a “personality” problem where I have been casually aggressive toward people - very unchristian. I hope God forgives me, and I trust he does, but I need to make very assertive efforts to prevent myself from becoming a monster. I rely heavily on God’s guidance of how to behave, or else. Such admonitions of behavior in the bible are very important to me so as to function in a socially acceptable way, so I treasure the scriptures that are indeed a light to my foot.
**Ephesians 4:29 **- “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.”
**Luke 6:45 **- “The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.”
**Proverbs 8:13 **- “The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.”
Proverbs 4:24 - “Put away from you crooked speech, and put devious talk far from you.”
Because I have memory issues, my memories of how I was before I had Christ overlap with current memories (probably similar to dementia). I sometimes behave how I was as a heathen, and believe me, I was not good. I need all the help I can get to stay on the right path. I fear becoming evil as I once was. I believe God has allowed my injury to help make me more honest. That’s another matter. Nevertheless, we all have different stories that help to explain us better, and most of time only God knows that story. I hope I do not come across judgmental or holier than thou, for I do not feel that way. I wish you the very best.
Thank you for your courageous and honest post. I’m sorry to hear of your accident and the problems it has caused you. You’re doing splendidly here considering how hard it must be for you to concentrate sometimes.
You don’t come across as judgemental at all - rather as somebody with a high regard for God’s truth, as revealed to you. And that is normally a very good thing, I’d say. The problem, of course, is that we all think our ‘revelation’ is correct when there is any misalignment or disagreement. This, obviously, is why there are so many different denominations out there. It’s also one reason why I have no affiliation to any particular denomination myself.
Now I hope I’m not too proud to admit I could be wrong about so many things. But it is one of my manifold failings that I can be prone to making dogmatic proclamations rather than expressing opinions. I also find it very hard to be tolerant with people who I perceive as portraying an unloving portrait of God (some fundamentalists, hyper-Calvinists for example). I keep forgetting that they are God’s beloved children too.
I have found your thoughts here very stimulating, and not a little challenging also. Which is good. We need to be challenged in our thinking. And even though we may not always agree, I respect your opinions as coherent, properly thought through and, as I said, true to your God-given understanding.
I wish you continued blessings, in Christ our saviour
WAAAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, I’m cracking up over here - does anyone watch “Big Bang Theory”? This really makes me want to give “coitus” a try as an expletive!
Oh Setfcui I hold you in thoughts and prayers after reading your story - and bless you for being brave to join in here and trust us to let you test things out. You are so welcome and please never ever think that old Sobornost, for one, is angry or offended in any way. I get grumpy like you do - but you are brother.
And to the rest of you (perhaps we need a category of scatology with the other ologies on site )
On the note of bodily functions of the rear end (posterior - or what you will) - The Valentian Gnostics argued that Jesus never did - couldn’t possibly have done. Mother Julian argues that a healthy bowel movement is a blessing of God’s grace - and does so very charmingly. I know which horse I’m backing
Oh dear, I do seem to have lowered the tone somewhat here .
However, semi-serious point here - I pray in all sorts of places at all sorts of times, but never while I’m on the loo; it just seems irreverent somehow. I also, if I’m honest, find it hard to pray after, well, you know, what married couples do from time to time. Again, it seems irreverent. But surely, as Dick says, bodily functions are just a normal part of life, and rumpy-pumpy in the context of a loving marriage is a gift from God. As CS Lewis once wrote, God likes sex. He invented it.
What’s shameful is not the act, but how terribly we have corrupted it and made it a source of shame. In that respect, despite being very liberal and anti-censorship, I find myself becoming more and more anti-pornography these days. And while I do not judge others who seem able to separate sex from love (eg men who have flings, or visit prostitutes), I do find them very hard to understand.
To be honest, when you first started posting here, Steve, I felt you were kind of judgmental and holier-than-thou. But now I can see that that’s really not the case, but that there’s more to you than what I initially thought (and isn’t that always how it is?), that you’re a guy who has gone through a lot but is doing his best to keep going and not give up, who comes up short sometimes, but keeps trying anyway.
I can relate to that. And I certainly have my struggles too.
I’ve struggled with an on again, off again addiction to porn since I was a kid, I inherited my dad’s temper, I may be self-deprecating but pride often rears its ugly head in me, I tend to feel more apathy than I do compassion, I struggle with a lot of fear and doubt, and I have a hard time believing and trusting in God a lot of the time, among other things.
And I certainly relate to the difficulty with concentration as well.
Most of the time I feel like I’m kind of moving through murky water, and clarity kind of comes and goes. Part of that could be because of my erratic sleeping schedule (due in large part to working swing shift), an unbalanced diet, or for all I know it could be because I banged my head against walls and made myself go into involuntary convulsions and beat myself up quite a lot over the course of a few years during my mid twenties, in violent anxiety attacks brought on by inner turmoil about God and all of the negative and oppressive and soul-crushing teachings within much of fundamentalist Christianity, things I didn’t understand in the Bible (still don’t really), good old-fashioned self-hatred and self-loathing, etc.
For all I know I could have done some brain damage
I’ve been pretty messed up too.
I’ve made a lot of mistakes and I’ve experienced a lot of mental and emotional confusion and pain… sometimes it amazes that I’m still here at all.
Like you I wonder if God has allowed me to go through everything I’ve gone through for a reason, and, I hope, a good reason, a reason with love and understanding rather than malice and cruelty behind it, allowed me to have the weaknesses that I have perhaps to help keep me humble, or maybe to teach me to be more compassionate through my own suffering.
I’m not sure.
Sometimes deep down I feel like I’m too messed up for God to make me whole, that I’m too broken to be mended and healed, but then I try to cling to those promises that all things are possible with God and that His love never fails, and that somehow He is with me, even in the mess, and will make me whole in time…
Not sure if you’ve heard me mention this, but since last year I’ve been experimenting with writing down ‘letters from God’.
My good friend Charles Slagle, who has been doing this for years and even published a few books full of these letters, encouraged me to try it out for myself. Basically I just try to listen for God’s voice inside of me, and write down whatever comes to me.
Anyways, since I think this applies to what we’re talking about here, I thought I’d share my most recent letter, and perhaps it may encourage you or someone else here:
I hope this encourages you or someone else here
As far as the whole expletive and irreverence issue…
I’m probably somewhere between Cindy and Johnny as far as my use of language goes. I don’t cuss as often as I did in my teens (I was pretty much an agnostic for most of my life up until my mid twenties), but I do a little more than I did when I was more conservative a few years ago.
And I’m with Johnny as far as how I handle it, keeping it under control around people whom I know would be bothered by it.
(And I love that quote from Tony Campolo by the way, Johnny, have heard it before )
But I admit I’m probably more wrapped up in the world than I should be, and I admit I end up forgetting about God a lot in my daily shuffle, but then again, I don’t think we can all just live in a monastery.
Maybe part of this life is about learning to find a balance between just living and going about your day, with all its ups and downs and successes and failures, and taking time to slow down and reflect and remember and commune with God, though, maybe like that Brother Lawrence guy, we can learn to ‘practice the presence of God’ during our daily shuffle, though of course that is easier said than done.
I think Jesus modeled that kind of lifestyle, though no doubt he used his time far more constructively and fully than I do.
Partly due to the sense of apathy that I struggle with (I kind of inherited my mom’s more stoic personality, with a helping of my dad’s more emotional personality, which needless to say leaves me feeling mixed… that and I may have some autistic tendencies), I don’t feel a whole lot of disgust about the way the world is. But it does make me sad at times, how messed up some things are, and I hope things get better, and try to help out in my own little ways, like sponsoring a child, opening a door for someone, saying a kind word here and there, or trying to encourage people through my writings, etc.
But just to throw this out there, as far as worldliness goes, honestly I admit that I really don’t want to have to feel guilty about reading a book or watching a movie or a show or listening to music or playing a video game or that sort of thing, even if some of those things that I partake of aren’t overtly spiritual in nature. I want to enjoy life.
Obviously being hedonistic isn’t healthy, and I admit that there are probably times when I indulge myself too much in something that I like, something that I enjoy, instead of doing something more constructive.
But I think the opposite side of the spectrum, a more Puritanical take on things, is equally unhealthy.
I think some people think it’s a sin to enjoy life, to have a good time, and that life should be strictly utilitarian. Like you’re not allowed to have fun if there are children starving in Africa. You’re not allowed to smile or laugh if someone you know is sick. You need to spend all your time doing ‘God’s work’ and can’t take any time for yourself.
That sounds really spiritual, but I think it’s very unbalanced.
I think Jesus knew how to relax and have a good time, how to smile and laugh and enjoy life. He went to parties, he had a little wine.
Heck, he may have even danced a little.
Of course, I’m sure that Jesus enjoyed life in a far deeper and fuller way than I do, while at the same time being inclusive of others even as he let his hair down, so to speak, but maybe loosening up a little and enjoying yourself a bit is as much a part of the spiritual life as serving others is.
After all, what good is it to do ‘good deeds’ if everybody thinks you’re a killjoy?
One of the things I’ve struggled with a lot up until recently is thinking of God as having a sense of humor.
I’ve always wanted to believe that He did, because that would make Him so much more approachable, but it was very hard to believe that when I was trying to embrace the Christian faith from a more fundamentalist angle. God always seemed so very serious, and almost never lighthearted, at least not with someone like me.
But since looking into universalism, it’s a little easier to see God in that light, as being a God who laughs with us as well as cries with us.
I do believe that our Abba wants us to learn to love eachother, to help eachother, wants us to be willing to give of our time and our talent and our treasure, and even if that isn’t always easy for us, but at the same time I think He wants us to feel free to smile and to laugh and to sing and to dance and to enjoy our lives, rather than be down in the dumps all the time or always in ‘I must do my duty’ mode.
And I think having some levity now and then enriches our ability to love, to help, and to give…
I’m not sure how much of this has to do with the topic at hand, but I figured the discussion might swing into this direction eventually
Thank you again for sharing from your heart, Steve, and by doing so encouraging us to do the same.
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