The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus' birth and last supper place

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

Jesus started in a caravansary as a baby and had His last supper in a caravansary:
Luk_2:7 And she brought forth her Son, the firstborn, and swaddles Him, and cradles Him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the caravansary."

Jesus’ last supper was at a caravansary:
Luk_22:11 And you will be declaring to the householder of the house, saying, ‘The Teacher is saying to you, "Where is My caravansary where I may be eating the Passover with My disciples?’"

What is a caravansary? It is a place where the traveling animals bed down for the night. It is a place to take off the burden of the animals. Jesus began His life placed in a manger in a caravansary. His last supper was in an upper room above a caravansary. The last supper was where He let off His burdens to His disciples.

#2

Yep! – although it’s possible that for the Last Supper the “caravansari” was a code word (part of a code-phrase in a code-situation) for a room Jesus had previously arranged to make sure they could have a private last supper together for Passover (one way or another). That scene across the Synoptics smacks of Jesus going around and past His main apostles. (Not surprising with Iscariot in the group.)

But anyway. You posted this in “Discussion affirmative”, but I couldn’t tell from your post how you thought this affirmed universal salvation?

#3

Hi Jason,
I couldn’t find a board to park those thoughts of mine. If you have an idea where disparate thoughts not inhering to universalism can be posted, I’d appreciate it.

I sometimes wondered if it were possible that Christ had His last supper in the same caravansary where He was born seeing that it is not far at all from Jerusalem. I think it was about a mile or so away in Christ’s day (correct me if I’m wrong).

What I also find interesting is how miraculous it would be to even find a place to have a supper in Jerusalem since the Passover was upon them and, according to some estimates, a million or so Israelites from other areas had converged on Jerusalem to celebrate. Interesting also is that so many witnessed Christ, the Saviour of the world, being improperly judged by Pilate and assassinated by His own people. Truly a lamb led to the slaughter. But how little they realized that their very act of murder would eventuate in their salvation and the salvation of all mankind! Truly His blood was upon them and their children!
This is like Joseph (a type of Christ) who was given up by the sons of Israel which, unbeknownst to them, would be their very salvation from starvation. God is so very wise in that He can cause a group of people to sin in order to save them!

#4

:open_mouth: I’ve heard of “the devil made me do it”… but to sheet-home their sin to God, too much! :laughing:

#6

I’d never come across that expression before: sheet home. Thanks for an amusing expression! :slight_smile:

#7

Oops, yes sorry… it’s a colloquialism meaning “to assign or apportion”.

#8

But God did make them give up His Son. The Bible says if they knew what would come of His death they would not have crucified Him.
And Judas had to fulfill the Scripture written concerning him to fulfil the Scripture in giving up Christ. He had no choice to do otherwise. Peter said so in Acts.
And at to Joseph’s case, he told his brothers after they came to him in Egypt: You meant it for evil but God meant it for good. So God made sure they would sell Joseph into Egypt so he could save them.

#9

And what does this: Jas 1:13 Let no one, undergoing trial, be saying that “From God am I undergoing trial,for God is not tried by evils, yet He is trying no one”

have to do with God forcing the hand of fallible humans to crucify His Son in order to save them? He is not trying them. He is forcing their hand to do what needed to be done. And God is righteous in doing so because in doing so it saves all mankind.

God didn’t sin in doing so. If Christ does not save all mankind, then God will have sinned in what He set out to do. He will have missed the mark which is what “sin” means.

You might find this article “The God of Judas Iscariot” interesting: concordant.org/expositions/problem-evil-judgments-god-contents/part-one-18-god-judas-iscariot/

#10

We have a bunch of categories here: viewforum.php?f=13

Also another three here: viewforum.php?f=22

I’d recommend “typologies”: viewforum.php?f=24

I can move the thread there and leave a shadow topic here for people to follow the link.

#11

More like ten miles south overland (not very feasible), maybe 12 by road. Also, Christ wasn’t born in the caravansary: there was no room to find a private place there. Thus the choice to find a manger in a cave (traditionally the cave where David hid from Saul) or inside a house (typically down a level from the main floor, so that sweepings could be swept there.)

Some Biblical evidence plus tradition suggests the Last Supper was held at the inn run by John Mark’s mother. Inside Jerusalem itself (albeit near one of the gates), it wouldn’t have had room for a proper caravanserai. But that might have been its name anyway passed down from old times; or since Jesus seems to be sending His disciples out to take up arrangements He has already made, it might be a code word to let people know they’ve met the right people. Even up to the point where Iscariot left, Jesus wasn’t being clear about whether this was a Passover meal or not, and I think there are strong arguments (reconciling disparate data between the Synoptics and GosJohn) that He held the Last Supper as a Passover one night early (the lamb cooking having already started at sundown for the huge crowds involved; there’d be a big party that night at the Temple for the cooking, which would delay getting together enough Sandhedrin members for a preliminary trial, which the actual Passover meal and the Sabbath would have further hampered.) Iscariot evidently understood this to be a Passover meal – as did various Gospel authors later – and if it was one night early, that would be strong contextual evidence (though wrongly inferred) that Jesus going to start a military revolution against the regime as the Maccabees had done: rabbis or family heads only hold the Passover one night early if they already expect a life-threatening emergency the next night, like a battle!

This also explains why the Sanhedrin, despite having already resolved to put off doing something about Jesus again until after the Passover, changed their minds in such a panic after Iscariot went to them. Meanwhile, the apostles (and any other disciples around, probably including John Mark) aren’t sure whether Iscariot is going out to get the proper food for a Passover that hasn’t happened yet, or to give Passover charity in the street as the disciple in the honored/son position.

#12

How about we move it to “typologies”? Maybe we can get more people to disagree with me and with each other LOL.

#13

I just now did a search for Bethlehem to Jerusalem and they said 5.52 miles or4.8 nautical miles.

I think the important thing to take away is that Jesus was born homeless and finished his life homeless.

#14

You have simply universalised what were particular incidents, simplistically assuming everything you link to said examples is therefore globalised — the logic is errant.

Eusebius, simply answer this… consistent with your logic — which sins of yours do you attribute to God’s initiating?

#15

Eusbious said:

why is that? :confused:

#16
#17

Explain?

#18

I was being facetious… “homeless” as opposed to “many mansions” :mrgreen:

#19

davo said

https://community.o2.co.uk/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/11277i77D20F612C062DC8?v=mpbl-1

Well I really wanted to know the answer to why it is so important to take away that Jesus was born homeless and died homeless. :smiley:
But there is a possibility that the answer is hidden in Eusebius’s statement:

A statement like that could tarnish one’s credibility. :open_mouth:

#20

No, you answer me this: Since Judas had to fulfill the scriptures spoken about him, who is responsible for him giving up Christ to be crucified?

#21

Are you saying everyone agrees with what everyone posts on here?