The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus' birth and last supper place

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#104

Dave, you are right. As I see it, God placed in the Garden, both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the intention that Adam and Eve would eat from both. But, though mature physically, they were immature mentally, emotionally and spiritually. So God’s intention was for them to first eat from the Tree of Life, and when they had matured they would be in a position to benefit from knowing the distinction between good and evil. For knowing that distinction is characteristic of mature people:

(Hebrews 5:14 ESV) But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

So God forbade them from eating from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil until they were prepared to do so through becoming mature. But Satan tempted them to do it the other way around so that they would ruin themselves. They weren’t in the mental, emotional, and spiritual condition to handle Knowledge of Good and Evil. That’s why they hid themselves from God as a result. That’s why they were ashamed of being naked.

Even though God had not commanded them from refraining from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life, they never did so. Again they did the reverse of God’s intentions, and thus He had to keep them out of the Garden, so that they wouldn’t eat from the Tree of Life and live forever in their fallen condition. For if they had lived forever as fallen people, then their wickedness would also continue to escalate perpetually.

#105

That sheds a lot of light on the story, thanks Paidion.

#106

Paidion, from what I understand, Adam and Eve were not able to “live forever” in their fallen condition, as God said “if you eat of the TKGE, you shall surely die.” One cannot disobey God and obey God at the same time. It is an either or condition.

#107

Paidion, would you mind if I said something?

#108

Eusebius, 1 John 3:9 says this: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” Adam and Eve were removed from the ground that had been cursed to start over again on new ground. They weren’t sowing the serpent’s seed. They sowed the seeds of God which took root in Cain, Abel and Seth. Even though Cain went South, it was A&E who taught them the ways of the Lord. Psalm 127:30 says, “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.”

#109

Yes. Since they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, the death process began on that very day. They had the choice of eating from the Tree of Life and becoming immortal, and from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil after they matured and were able to handle knowing good and evil. But since they ate from it while still immature and didn’t eat from the Tree of Life, they became mortal and the death process began.

No one is affirming that you can obey and disobey at the same time; you are attacking a strawman with these statements.

You would probably disallow your child from firing a rifle while he yet immature because you know he may harm himself, but you may have no problem with his firing the rifle when he becomes an adult. If he fires the rifle while he is but a child, he is disobeying you; but if he fires it as an adult, he is not. This doesn’t mean he is obeying and disobeying at the same time. It’s not at the same time. It’s at a different time and under different circumstances.

The same with God’s command. He commands them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil while they are immature. But at a later time when they are mature, He permits them to eat; indeed He wants them to eat! To know good and evil is not intrinsically bad; it is bad only when one is too immature to use this knowledge wisely.

Why do you think God planted the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, if He didn’t want them ever to eat from it? Did He want to CAUSE them to sin? To do so is contrary to God’s nature. God’s very essence is LOVE! (1 John 4:8,16)

#110

Obviously some take 1 John 3:9 improperly since he also wrote one chapter prior to that:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone (of you) should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."

Also, I have already proven that the seed in Genesis 3:15 referred to Christ and not to Cain or Abel or Seth.
The Bible does not say Adam nor Eve taught them the ways of the Lord. In fact, he failed in his leadership of mankind eventuating in the destruction of all mankind save 8.

#111

Paidion, I don’t see any verse in the story that says God wanted A&E to eat from the TKGE, or that He gave them permission to eat from it later on. Wisdom comes God and the tree of life.
Proverbs 3:7 says this: " Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil.
" Proverbs 2:6 “For the Lord gives wisdom, from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding.”
Proverbs 3:5 “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your path.”

Eusebius, Again, Genesis 4:25 says "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “FOR GOD HAS APPOINTED ANOTHER SEED FOR ME INSTEAD OF ABEL.” Of course Adam and Eve taught their children the ways of the Lord. Who do you think raised them??

#112

The Bible doesn’t say Adam and Eve taught their children the ways of the Lord.

The only seed promised to harm the Serpent’s head and the only heel hurt harming the serpent’s head was Christ.

#113

I think it reasonable to assume Adam and Eve raised their children just like we do…imperfectly.

“Well, Mom, why can’t I kill Abel? I mean, there is no law yet and you ate of that stinking fruit even though God told you not to, didn’t you?”

“Yes, Cain, but, your father and I payed a high price for that”

“No, you mean I payed a high price for that don’t you? I am tired of always being the one who works hard all day, bringing home the bacon, and what do I get for it?!”

“You love that misty-eyed lay-about Abel more than me. He has always been your favorite”.

" Now son, Be careful, that is the serpent talking."

“Yea Mom, sure. It’s the same guy talking that YOU listened to back in the garden, which is why I have to sweat over the earth everyday. YOU AND DAD BLEW IT, but I AM PAYING FOR IT. Abel, he gets to just sit out there in the fields with the sheep and wander in and out when he feels like it, at peace with the world, and you and Dad just enable him. ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!”

#114

That was some good imaginative work there!! :smiley:

#115

No. I don’t “see any verse” either. However sound exegesis is not the result of “seeing verses” but of providing an understanding of the passages that exist. I came up with this understanding after thinking about it for a considerable time. Interestingly, just today, I discovered that Irenæus [A.D. 120-202] understood the matter much as I do.

I was unable to find the actual quote from Irenæus; I discovered the above passage from the following site:

Irenæus on the Fall

#116

Eaglesway, From what I understand, God created us to work. As Genesis 2:5 points out “and there was no man to till the ground.” So the Lord formed man out of the dust of the earth. “He who tills the ground will have plenty of food, but he who follows empty pursuits will have poverty in plenty.”(Proverbs 28:19). Jesus even says this: “My Father is always at work to this very day and I too am working.”(John 5:17). It is true that idle hands are the work of the devil, and in neglecting our work the place goes to #*!!.

Eusebius, Yes, A&E did instruct their children in the ways of the Lord. They were obviously taught to make offerings to the Him. Abel became a keeper of sheep and Cain a tiller of the ground. Spiritually speaking, tending the sheep and tilling the ground are works of God. Besides, how did they even come to know who God is?

Last but not least :wink: :slight_smile: Paidion, I would agree that thinking for ourselves is not evil because this is why God gave us our own minds in the first place. However, casting God to the side in favor of our own understanding is where the problem comes in. We become fools as Romans 1:22 says, “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” Our knowledge and understanding should come from the tree of life. For example, we cannot be the big boss over everything and everyone, even if it is good. We are not to “be like God” in this respect. In fact, it is unlike God to force one’s will on someone else. God is a paradox. He is and He isn’t. He’s King, yet he is a servant etc. etc. If one does not know this, they can be easily deceived as was Adam and Eve.

#117

Hi LLC. I don’t understand how your response to my recent post has any relation to the issue at hand. In any case, I think the day will come when God will make clear to us all the reason He planted the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden.

#118

He must not have instructed them very well since Cain messed up. If he taught his children the ways of the Lord, it ended up in total failure with only eight people surviving in the world back then. And the only reason Noah made it through the flood was because he found favor with God. The rest of Adam’s offspring did not.

#119

Adam and the two boys were strolling along the river’s edge kicking the dust as they meandered along gazing over at the luscious garden across and beyond when Adam turns to the boys and says… “that there boys used to be ours before your mother ate us out of house and home.”

#120

That the Revised Revised version. :laughing:

#121

Eusebius, I don’t think we are in any position to cast the first stone. Besides, one of the ten commandments is to honor our father and mother. I believe the story of Adam and Eve has been misinterpreted by many. According to Ecclesiasticus, which was written before the New Testament, 49:16 says this: “Shem and Seth were honored among men but above every living creature is Adam.” Now, you may disagree since this book is not included in some of the Bibles. However, Jesus never blamed Adam and Eve for our sins, nor does He say that God condemned all of mankind because of them. In fact, He doesn’t even mention them at all. Instead, both the Old and the New Testaments speak of all the blessings God gives us should we love and follow Him. But, as I often say, we are all free to think what we want to think. :slight_smile:

#122

The fact that Cain screwed up does not mean he was not taught. In fact, afterhe murdered his brother, he was taught some more- directly by the Lord.

It is really speculative to postulate whether or not Adam and Eve raised their children in a godly way, and to what extent the tree of knowledge of good and evil impacted their conduct. It seems, from how God dealt with Cain, and from the results of the sacrifices Cain and Able offered, that at that time God was still dealing in a very direct manner with the first family. The two sons took divergent paths, and it is common sense they were not taught two different things by their parents, or by God directly.

Altho they were cast forth from the garden it would be an wrong assumption to say they no longer had direct interaction with God on some level.

For instance, it says that Abel’s offering was accepted and Cain’s wasnt. We do not know the nature of that acceptance or the rejection. We do know that the reason for it had to be in the realm of the heart response to God- Abel being mentioned by Jesus as a prophet whose blood the Pharisees shared with Cain. Cain walked in the wisdom that is earthly, pyschological, demonic… where bitter jealousy and selfish ambiton exist there is confusion and every evil work(Jm 3). Abel walked in the wisdom that is from above… the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace… and was the first martyr sown in the earth. Perhaps their divergence was a matter of their response to God rather than how they were raised, since they were raised in the same household.

It apppears there was a lot of direct commerce between the Lord and the first family.

"The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and** I will be hidden from your presence**; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

Cain was still just worried about himself and expressed no remorse over his brother’s death. A deeply twisted fellow I think.

#123

Even this shows that Cain indeed had access to the very presence of God beyond paradise. Not only that but despite rejection Cain knew the protective grace of God, as per the following verses.