The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus' birth and last supper place

Yup. Even in discipline the mercy of God is evident.

Yepper :laughing:

I agree. I also believe the story tells us that Cain was saved as well. I think the author is blunt and brief in the way he writes, as is understandable due to the age in which it was composed. However,God does have mercy on Cain, for he is not killed, nor does he end up to be a vagabond and wanderer. Instead, he marries and has a family.He also goes on to build a city. All in all, he seems to prosper. Genesis 4:24 says this: "If Cain can be avenged seven fold, then Lamech seventy -sevenfold. One of the definitions of avenge is to vindicate, which means to clear of blame.

A stretch, imo. We know all will be saved, but there is nothing in the scriptures that would establish clearly that Cain was saved- or not. The fact that Jesus uses Cain as a negative characterization of the Pharisees, and Jude also uses Cain as a negative metaphor as well, makes me wonder.Also, it seems that it should be noted that it was Lamech, who made that statement about 70 x 7, not God.

What are we talking about when we declare that someone is “saved” and someone else isn’t? Saved from what?

The angel told Joseph to call His name “Jesus” (Saviour) because “He will save His people from their sins.” To be saved from sins is to be delivered from them.

As I see it, no one is yet saved. Rather those who have entered the door of salvation are in the process of being saved!

Check out how Metropolitan Kallistos answered when he was asked the question, “Are you saved?”

youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU

Eaglesway, Matthew 18:21-24 says this: "Then Peter came to him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times? Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven,” Jesus never blames Cain for anything. The blood of the righteous was to fall on the generation Jesus was speaking to,specifically on those who refused to repent and be saved. I believe Genesis makes it clear that Cain was saved.

Hi LLC, I wasn’t casting stones. Maybe bricks, but not stones. :smiley:

The ten commandments were given a couple thousand years after Adam. Neither he nor anyone prior to the flood or even after the flood up to Moses was under any ten commandments.

The apostle Paul, who received his truth from the risen Christ, had much to say about Adam in Romans 5:12-19 and other places such as 1 Corinthians 15:22. It is because of what Adam did that all are dying and due to that, sin.

Could you please define your terms? You say “should we love and follow Him.” Please define what you mean by that statement. We may have different ideas about that.

Eusebius, There was obviously some sort law at the time of Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:24 says this: 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Jesus repeats this same statement in Matthew 19:5. There was also a law against murder because Cain knew he would be killed for what he did to Abel. The first commandment, which is to love God and put Him first, was known as well. Besides, if there was no law or commandments of God, how did the first family know what sin was?

What I mean by “should we love and follow Him” is that we are blessed when we live life according to God.

As I mentioned before, Jesus never said anything about Adam so as far as Paul goes, I think there is perhaps some misinterpretation of his words.

Genesis 2:24 is not contained in the law of Moses.
Also, before Cain killed Able, there was no law given against murder. That is why God just let Cain go away rather than demanding soul for soul as contained in the law.

How did they know what sin was prior to the giving of the law? It was their conscience.

“Rom 2:15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, **their conscience **testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,”

Here is further proof there was no law prior to Moses, yet people still knew what sin was:

Rom 5:13 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;"
Rom 5:14 nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be."

Eusebius, Genesis 4:14 says this: “I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.” Again I would say that there was obviously a law against murder. This indicates that an “eye for an eye” was in effect at the time. But, God had mercy on Cain and forgave him. As Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-39 “You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.”

Hi LLC,
Cain telling God he was fearful that by being cast out and that in so doing, someone finding him would kill him, is not proof that there was a law against murder. It could be proof that already mankind was spiraling downward and that people were murdering back then just as Lamech killed someone in 4:17.
I fail to see how what Jesus said in Matthew 5:38-39 has anything to do with Cain.

Eusebius, According to Exodus 21:12-13 " Whoever strikes someone so that he dies must surely be put to death. But if he does not do it with premeditation, but it happens by accident, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee."

Jeremiah 29:7 says this: “Also seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you will prosper.” Genesis 4:17 says “And he(Cain) built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son-Enoch.” From the sounds of it, this city became pretty prosperous.

Leviticus 19:18 “You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself, I am Lord.”

Matthew 18:22-23 "Lord how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you up to seven times, but seventy times seven.” Genesis 4:24 says “If Cain shall be avenged( vindicated/ aquitted ) sevenfold, then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”

From these verses along with what Jesus said about an eye for an eye, I would say that the people in Genesis knew quite a bit about the law and the word of God.

You mentioned in your post that sin is not imputed when there is no law; however you say that God condemned Adam and Eve as well as all of mankind as a result of their sin. This does not seem to match up.

No one was under the law of Moses prior to the law being given to Moses and only to Israel.
God let Cain go after he killed Abel. Therefore Cain was not under any law.

Here is what the Concordant Commentary says on Romans 5:14:

14 The type covers the period of time up to the giving of the law, from Adam to Moses. During this period there was no transgression, for there was no law. So it is today. The law was not given to the nations, hence they do not transgress it. Nevertheless death reigns, even as it did before the law was given. The type, however, is in the nature of a shadow, whose dark outlines do not clearly depict the present grace. The reign of Sin corresponds to the reign of Grace, Adam’s single offense to Christ’s one just act on Calvary, bringing life where Adam brought death. But the type fails utterly in a number of particulars.

Eusebius, According to John 1:1, the word of God was there in the beginning. It is everything that Jesus said and did, which includes the Ten Commandments. As Jesus said, He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. This means that He obeyed God and lived according to His word, thus becoming the Living Word. He also stated that His word would never pass away.

But Jesus BROKE the Sabbath commandment. So by fulfilling the law, He couldn’t have meant keeping the law of Moses. Rather, He was referring to His fulfilling of a certain group of Hebrew prophetic scriptures were known as "The Law and the Prophets."Jesus said that Moses wrote about Him. (John 5:46). So Jesus fulfilled the words of Moses and the prophets that were prophecies about Him — for example, Isaiah 53. Also “the law of Christ” that He expressed as recorded in Matthew 5, 6, and 7 differed from the law of Moses. In some cases, it was more stringent. In others, it was exactly the opposite.

Jesus Broke the Sabbath
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Like their Master, Christ’s disciples are not obligated to keep the Sabbath day either. Justin Martyr who met a group of Jews talked with them for several days, explaining that Jesus was the promised Messiah. He also showed them that it was no longer necessary to keep the Sabbath day. [Titles are mine]

[size=130]Justin Martyr’s Explanation of the Sabbath to the Jews(Justin lived from 110 – 165 A.D.)[/size]

Righteous Men of Old Kept No Sabbaths
… all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah,] though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses… Chapter 19

…For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now,…Chapter 23

Nature Does Not Observe Sabbath Days
Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Chapter 23

God Himself Does Not Observe the Sabbath Day
Think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others… Chapter 29 [The law required that the Israelites not light a fire on the Sabbath day, and so they wouldn’t have hot water].

The True Israelites Are Those Who Come to God Through Christ
For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed. Chapter 11 (near the end)

We Are Now Required To Keep Sabbath Daily By Resting From Sin and Working Righteousness
The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. Chapter 12 (at the end)

Paidion, I agree. What Jesus taught and lived by was the word of God in it’s original form, the word that was there in the beginning. Jesus kept only those laws, out of the law of Moses and the prophets, that were true and everlasting. All else went by the wayside. Although, I am inclined to believe that some of the “laws of Moses” were not originally from Moses. In any case, there was a Law in the beginning, as you say “the Law of Christ” which was passed down from Adam and Eve and is still in effect today.

The Bible says the law didn’t come until Moses. Therefore you are misappropriating John 1:1.

Also, John 1:1 in the Greek doesn’t say “In the beginning was the word” but, just as one begins a treatise on a subject, John said “In beginning, the word was.” The definite article “the” is missing in John 1:1. In other words it should be thought of this way “In beginning this treatise, the word was.” Just as in Genesis, Moses wrote “In beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” or “In beginning this treatise, God created the heavens and the earth.”

Eusebius, Of course there were laws before Moses.
1.laws against theft-Genesis 30-31-37,Joseph and the silver cup
2.laws against murder-Genesis 9:5-6
3.honoring your father and mother Genesis 9:23
4.law of circumcision-Genesis17:10-14
5. laws of marriage
6. law of the firstborn
7.law against adultery-Genesis 26:10-11
8.etc.etc.

All of those verses are laws but were instituted after the flood. Prior to the flood it was the age of conscience.

But the Law of Moses was not instituted until only when they were given to Moses and only Israelites covenanted with God to keep those laws.

Eusebius, In Matthew 19:4-5 Jesus says this: "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female and said “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh?”

God’s word was in the beginning with Adam and Eve as Luke 8:11 says, the seed is the word of God. The people of God existed before the flood. Genesis 6:1-2 says "Now it came to pass , when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. According to Deuteronomy 22:9 they were not to do this. “You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed; lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of you vineyard be defiled.” Jesus also taught this.