The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus' birth and last supper place

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#144

Jesus wasn’t quoting the law of Moses in Matthew 19:4-5.

The “sons of God” is more properly translated “sons of the elohim” with a lowercase “elohim.” All that “elohim” means is subjector or placer. Adam was supposed to be an elohim or subjector. There were mortals who were trying to amalgamate power by marrying his daughters. God didn’t think that was right.

And coming is it that humanity starts to be multitudinous on the surface of the ground, and daughters are born to them. And seeing are sons of the elohim the daughters of the human, that they are good, and taking are they for themselves wives of all whom they choose. And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not abide shall My spirit in the human for the eon, in that moreover, he is flesh. And come shall his days to be a hundred and twenty years. Now the distinguished come to be in the earth in those days, and, moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of the elohim to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the masters, who are from the eon,** mortals** with the name.
(Gen 6:1-4)

As to “daughters of the human,” the human was Adam. This would be like me trying to marry one of Donald Trump’s daughters in order to amalgamate more power.

#145

Eusebius, I did not say that Jesus was speaking of the law of Moses. He was speaking of the word of God. As Paidion has mentioned in his post, the word of God(the Law of Christ) is different from the law of Moses. I agree with what he has said. Perhaps the problem between us is the fact that I do not see a progressive revelation of God’s word happening in the Bible. On the contrary, I believe the word, in it’s original form, was there in the beginning. Over time, it becomes corrupted by man and must be renewed. So to me, Jesus’ teachings were not anything new, but they were the incorruptible words that stemmed from the beginnings of mankind.

#146

I thought you were still talking about laws due to your post above on your 8 points of laws.

I’m not sure why you call “the word of God” being “the law of Christ.” Maybe you are being progressive in your interpretations? :wink:

#147

Eusebius, I actually got the “Law of Christ” from Paidion, and I like it. It makes things a little more clear when it comes to what I am trying to say. When speaking of the word of God, everyone seems to have their own ideas of what it is. To me, it is everything that Jesus said and did and is the foundation of mankind. However, the “Law of Christ” is a bit more concise. So I’m going with it. :slight_smile: Anyway, he expressed it in his post, a few posts up. If you didn’t get a chance to read it, you might want to go back and see what he says. :slight_smile:

#148

The Jews supposed He had broken the law of the Sabbath but He explained to them that if they had an animal fall into a hole on the Sabbath, they would get that animal out. So He showed them they were hypocrites and said that man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man.
Also, the kingdom rules Christ will incorporate as spoken in Matthew 5,7 & 7 was actually the law on steroids. The only those Jews will be able to do what Jesus said in Matthew 5,6 & 7 is by God writing the law on their hearts, which, as prophecied, He will do.

The “word” in John chapter 1 is the creative word that came out of God’s mouth and created creation through it.
Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
You are merely making things up as you go along.

Actually, they are required to keep the Sabbath. Even after Christ’s death, the women and disciples were keeping the Sabbath. They had to get the herbs and spices prior to the Sabbath and do only so much to prepare the body prior to or after the Sabbath.

Righteous Men of Old Kept No Sabbaths
… all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah,] though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses… Chapter 19

How could Abel, Enoch or Noah keep a Sabbath when the Sabbath law was given over a thousand years later to Moses and it was given only to the Israelites who covenanted with God to keep it?

In the New Testament, circumcision was still a big thing among the Jews. Why do you think Paul called the Jewish believers the “Circumcision” and the believers of the nations “the uncircumcision”?

But God ceased work on the 7th day and Moses and the Israelites knew they too were to cease from work on the 7th day which was a Saturday.

Correct. The nations do not need to circumcise since we are saved by grace and not by works [of the law].

Believers of the nations have no requirements for salvation like the Jews do. I didn’t know Justin Martyr was inspired and in the Scriptures.

The Jews MUST remain faithful and watch to the end or they will not be saved for living in the kingdom Christ will set up in Israel when He returns. Not so with the believers of the nation for: “1Th_5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him.”

So, to recapitulate: the “word” in John 1:1-3 is the creative word which God spoke creation into existence. It has nothing to do with the law.

#150

The Sabbath keeping of a jew is not a substitute for receiving Messiah. Rejecting Messiah while keeping Sabbaths is having missed the revelation of God.

14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor

In Romans 11 Paul explains that All Israel will be saved, but it is not through having kept the Sabbath, it is though receiving Messiah.

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

Jews are enemies of the gospel, but beloved because of the calling of God and the forefathers, they are being reconciled to God via deliverance from the enmity- the law contained in commandments, and made one with all flesh in the perfect law of liberty under the headship of Chirst within the one new man.

But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

The gospel is the Sabbath for all who hear, and Today is the Day that the Lord has made, if we have entered it, ceasing from our own works(no longer living for self but in service to Messiah).

Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard…

He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Verses 12,13 is quoted a lot, but rarely in context with the subject it is attached to by the writer of Hebrews- entering the Sabbath rest of the believer. (I have died, Christ lives through me, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God.)

#151

Jer 31:33 For this [is] the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Yahweh, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for Elohim, And they are to me for a people."

And I have made them become one nation in the land, on mountains of Israel, And one king is to them all for king, And they are no more as two nations, Nor are they divided any more into two kingdoms again." Nor are they defiled any more with their idols, And with their abominations, And with any of their transgressions, And I have saved them out of all their dwellings, In which they have sinned, And I have cleansed them, And they have been to Me for a people, And I–I am to them for Elohim." And My servant David [is] king over them, And one shepherd have they all, And in My judgments they go, And My statutes they keep, and have done them."
(Eze 37:22-24)

This is still future too for Israel:
And I have given to them one heart, And a new spirit I do give in your midst, And I have turned the heart of stone out of their flesh, And I have given to them a heart of flesh. So that in My statutes they walk, And My judgments they keep, and have done them, And they have been to me for a people, And I am to them for Elohim." (Eze 11:19-20)

King David:
Born c. 1040 BCE

Ezekiel
Date of birth 622 BC

So what Ezekiel was born after David and what he prophesied is still to come at a future date when God will write the law on the Israelites heart and they will do all His law.

Heb 10:16 ‘This is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with them after those days,’ the Lord is saying, 'imparting My laws to their hearts, I shall be inscribing them on their comprehension also,

#152

Eusebius, I don’t think you are quite getting it. God’s creation operates through Laws. This is how He made it. There is a law for everything, laws of physics, laws of chemistry, laws of math, etc. etc. There are also Laws for mankind. People can’t just run amok and do whatever they want to. Without these Laws we can’t operate; we can’t build relationships, families societies, civilizations etc.etc… When it comes to God, He didn’t make different Laws for different people. All of mankind operate under the SAME LAWS, the Laws of sin and death or the Laws of righteousness(Jesus’ teachings). In this respect, I suppose one could say that man operates under two different Laws. It depends on how one sees it. In any event, these Laws of operation have been in effect since the beginning of time, and are still there. They haven’t changed. Man may try to change them, but none have been successful in their attempts. You mentioned the law of circumcision for example. This has always meant a “circumcision of the heart”, and it applies to all of mankind. It never had anything to do with the cutting of the male member. We can make any law we want to, but it doesn’t change the Laws of God. God created the world for those who live in righteousness. This is why there is a Law of sin and death. If we fail to change, we will pass away.

#153

I didn’t know Paul was talking about the law of gravity or other laws of physics when he wrote concerning the law of Moses. Nor did I know Adam taught his children about the laws of physics, chemistry, math, etc. etc.

Jesus’ teachings were only meant for either His circumcusion disciples or Jews. We of the nations can learn concerning what He gave them to do and believe. But they are not to us. Paul’s writings are for the nations.

You have not proven your point. You have merely stated what you think but without verifiable proof. There was no circumcision of the heart prior to circumcision being given to Abraham. There wasn’t even any circumcision that we know of prior to Abraham.
The nations are not entreated to circumcise through Paul’s writings to us of the nations. In Romans 2:29, concerning “circumcision of the heart,” Paul was writing about the Jews (Rom.2:17), not all mankind. It is the Jews who should have circumcised their heart rather than just their male part.

I’m not sure why you say “if we fail to change, we will pass away.” All mankind are in the same boat. Because of what Adam did, death entered into all mankind and because of that, all sin (Romans 5:12). Paul gives the good news about what Christ did and how all mankind will benefit due to what He did in Romans 5:18,19.

#154

Wow. That is some really off the wall dispensational fantasy there. I wonder what basic theological paradox that doctrine was developed to escape :slight_smile:. If Jesus words were not for all, and Paul’s words take precedence for all those who are not of Jewish descent, or of the circumscision, the gospel is(imo) eviscerated, because it is about the revelation of Jesus Christ, the Logos, the living and abiding incoruptible seed, making the two into one, and then bringing the “all” into the one who is all in all. Whew, that is just too weird.

#155

Sorry Eusebius, I follow Jesus. His teachings were common sense, down to earth, basic principles of life as human beings. He was not teaching us some kind of other-worldly, outer space theology. The world in which we live operates on honesty, love, forgiveness, etc. etc. We cannot live without these things, and the proof is right before our eyes. I find that people can make the Bible say anything they want it to say. If pointing to a Bible verse is the only proof of what you say is true, then your words don’t mean a thing.

#156

Let me add to those speaking (regarding “Twilight Zone theology”), as a “Fool of the court”:

If the church fathers, churches, theologians and reformers - got this wrong…why didn’t God intervene; correct them in a big way? And if these truths are only for the few, then isn’t this a form of esoteric teaching (i.e. akin to Mormonism, and their secret temple rituals)?

Let me share something from George Fox, the founder of Quakerism at en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Fox:

Whom is speaking to George Fox and what is he experiencing?

Now it’s time to sweat an oath, to the court. :laughing:

#157

Dear friend,
A believer of the nations does not have to worry about having his body cast into Gehenna. A Jewish believer does.
A believer of the nations does not have to worry about offending someone so as to not be allowed into the kingdom Christ will set up in Israel to the point of hacking off a hand or wrenching out an offensive eye to get in. The Jewish believer does have to worry about that.

You see, there are many more things Jesus taught the Jews concerning what they must DO. The risen Christ gave to Paul the evangel of the nations which was not taught him by any man nor received it from any man but, according to Paul, came from the risen Christ. Believers of the nations do not have to have oil in their lamps and constantly be on guard for the Bridegroom to appear or they will not make it in. The Jewish believer does.

Sorry, I gave up living in a fantasy world long ago. Now I’m only into reality. Enjoy your world. I’ll enjoy mine.

#158

My very dear HFPZ,
It is incorrect to use “appealing to authority” fallacy in order to back up a statement.
For instance, God already warned us through Paul that in subsequent eras they would withdraw from the truth. So they one time had the truth and withdrew from it. So what the church fathers, churches, some theologians and some reformers actually prove is that Paul was correct concerning that.
The truth is that Paul, Peter, James and John agreed that Paul would be for the nations and PP&J for the Circumcision. You can read about that in Galatians 2. The Circumcision mix law with grace. The Uncircumcision (that’s what the Bible calls believers of the nations) are saved purely by grace without any works of the law. Paul’s evangel of the nations is that of grace only. PP&J’s evangel is grace mixed with works.

Thanks for your thoughts anyway. :smiley:
Peace out bro!

#159

I fully agree with you that Jesus never taught his people or disciples that they would go to heaven. They won’t. They are destined to remain in the kingdom on earth for the 1000 year reign of Christ and the new earth.

The ascended Christ gave to the apostle Paul, the apostle of the nations, the realm believers of the nations are destined for. Hint: It’s not on earth.

Actually, the world lies in the lap of the wicked one.

If you have no verse to back up what you say, then your words don’t mean a thing. See, it works both ways bro.

#160

I think we just have to agree to disagree, but the world is what it is, whether we enjoy it or not. I am always totally relieved when I consider that we will understand it better by and by, because what is real is already real, and the process of discovery does not create it, it only unveils it as it is.

I understand then that for you Gehenna has no metaphoric meaning that can be applied to anyone in the principle of, for instance 1 Cor 3, “every man’s work will be tested with fire for the day shall reveal it”. Is it Gehenna strictly historic, physical, literal for you?

As far as Jewish believers go, the dividing wall is taken down in Christ, and we have been grafted in to the original olive tree, so I am not sure if you are speaking of Jews who believe in Christ, or the Jews Paul wrote of in 2 Corinthians 3 and 4 whose minds are still veiled when they read the law because they have not yet turned to the Lord.

I see the wedding supper as always ongoing, with a point of culmination to come, but in the meantime there are many who are missing the invitation to a celebration that is already happening, where the celebrants feast in fellowship, rejoicing at the union of the Bride and the Lamb, as she is “coming down out of the heavens” for all who can see her, adorned in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints, who share the glory of her oneness in service to her groom, to whom she is betrothed in faithfulness.

“Awake O Sleeper and Arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you”

“Arise and shine for thy light has come and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you”

“Arise O Lord to your dwelling place, You and the ark of your strength.”

I see all of these things as having begun revealing at Pentecost, among the early ecclesia, and always looking for a place to break out anew among some believers who have kept their vessels full, and accepted the invitation , and showed up in proper garments.

From my view the door is slamming shut all the time on those who do not hear what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies.

#161

Gehenna is in a valley where there is a lovely park today near Jerusalem. When Christ sets up His rule in Jerusalem for the 1,000 year kingdom, Gehenna will be a literal trash dump where they will burn the trash of the city. Any Jew/Israelite who does something worthy of death during that time will receive the death penalty, be killed and, rather than having a decent Jewish burial, will have their dead body cast into Gehenna where, if the fires are absent, the body will be eaten with worms and where, if the fires are present in the area his body is cast, will be burned up with fire.
Isaiah reveals this as well:

“And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem, says Yahweh. And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh” (Isa 66:23-24).

Believers of the nations do not need to worry about Gehenna. We won’t receive the death penalty and then have our dead body cast into Gehenna.
Rom 5:9 Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we [believers of the nations] shall be saved from indignation, through Him."

The dividing wall has to do with believers of the nations and some believers of Israel coming over to the uncircumcision evangel. In that body of believers, there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female. Outside that body, there is the body of believers called “the Circumcision.” We are called “the uncircumcision.” The body called “the Circumcision” mixes law with grace. The body of believers called “the Uncircumcision” have nothing to do with having to mix law works with grace.

The wedding supper does not come for those who awake. It comes when Christ comes back to Israel. It is not for believers of the nations.

Pentecost is only for Israel and not the believers of the nations. Pentecost is one of the feasts in the law of Moses that Circumcision believers must continue to celebrate.

#162

Dear Eaglesway,
Here is a chart detailing the difference between the evangel of the Uncircumcision and evangel of the Circumcision:

Circumcision vs Uncircumcision.gif697×963 637 KB

#163

According to this viewpoint, what Scriptures apply to us today? Paul’s writings only?

#164

Well, this is a stellar question! Paul had direct revelation from Christ and yet never quoted the Christ’s words from the Gospels. It is worth a study :smiley: