Abraham was asleep during the covenant. The covenant took place between God(stove) and God(torch). Lets talk dangerous ground with your completely manufactured soul faith and spirit faith.
mate, i’ve been a Christian for nearly 30 years and have studied everything you’re talking about at one time or other.
conclusion? no God is not fair. if He was fair, He’d offer salvation to NONE of us.
as it is, He is MERCIFUL and grants mercy to all of us.
even you believe this, you just think that God will fail to convince everyone to ACCEPT the mercy.
i am not manufacturing anything…i have quote Scripture and sound doctrine again and again. because it doesn’t agree with your view, you dismiss it as false and don’t even extend the respect due to others who have studied this same Bible you have, and come to far more logical conclusions.
it’s all very well of you to say my view is unBiblical with no proof. i have plenty. it’s all over the forum and if you haven’t taken it in yet…well there’s not much more anyone can do to convince you. i suspect God knocking on your door with a signed document proving UR wouldn’t be enough… cause that’s what’s already been happening
however i do thank you, your weak attempts to question this doctrine have only helped us become stronger and more well rounded in our faith. we have more and more understanding of the Bible that disproves ECT, makes annihilation increasingly unlikely and definitively proves that UR is the best way of understanding Scripture and the point of everything.
I do practice what I preach. In fact, I don’t preach it unless I’m practicing it. Concerning exegesis and eisegesis, we all have room to learn and grow in wisdom and understanding of scripture.
The key phrase in your statement is “I see”, this is a very good example of eisegesis, seeing something in a passage or through a passage that it does not state.
What scripture actually notes is that Jonah died while in rebellion to God, was in Sheol, in distress and called out to God. Jonah says,
“ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
2 And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep,
Into the heart of the seas,
And the floods surrounded me;
All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, ‘I have been cast out of Your sight;
Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul;
The deep closed around me;
Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains;
The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;
Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,
O LORD, my God.
7 “ When my soul fainted within me,
I remembered the LORD;
And my prayer went up to You,
Into Your holy temple.
8 “ Those who regard worthless idols
Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay what I have vowed.
Salvation is of the LORD.”
So Jonah’s own testimony is that he died, was in Sheol (realm of the dead), and because of the affliction, distress that he experienced, because of feeling separated from God, he turned (repented) and cried out to God. So if his testimony is to be believed, which I believe it is, Jonah repented in Sheol because he was afflicted and felt cast away from God. And because having repented he cried out to God who saved him.
Revival, you asked for biblical evidence of post-mortem repentance, and, well, this is a biblical testimony of such. Of course, you’re welcome to refuse to see it if you wish, but that’s his testimony.
And, btw, the KJV actually translates Sheol as Hell, translating Jonah saying, “And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. … Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.”
So you are using Luke 16, a parable (a story not necessarily literal or true used to illustrate a truth) to interpret another passage in a completely seperate book that is a statement of fact, 1 Pet. 3:18-4:6. I believe that statements of fact should be used to interpret parables, not the other way around.
Also, it seems you’re not reading what Peter actually says. He didn’t say that Jesus preached to the righteous; rather Peter said:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah,"
So it was the “spirits in prison” who did not believe and were “disobedient” during the time of Noah, that Jesus proclaimed the Good News to. This was the most wicked generation ever to live on earth! It was so bad that God decided to destroy everyone except the righteous!
This is an example of Jesus preaching to “spirits in prison”, people from the most wicked generation of all time, people who died in their sins, judged by God. Why did Jesus preach to them? Peter goes on to say immediately following this that, “For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
So what they did in the flesh, while alive, was judged so that the could Live by God in the Spirit. And btw, the word translated “according to” is “kata” which is also translated as "in accordance with, after the manner of, by, etc.). It is a word that speaks of harmony and accord.
You’re welcome to dismiss this passage and read into it something that it doesn’t say, but what it says is that the most wicked of all generations, those who were judged by God, killed by God, and their spirits were in prison in the after-life, recieved the Good News and were restored to life in accord with God.
You are correct in saying that Paul is not declaring that baptism for the dead is something that all should practice. But you are incorrect in saying that it was pagans who were baptising for the dead. Paul says “they”, he does not define who it is that is practicing baptism for the dead; it could have been some of the believers at Corinth. That’s the impression I get when reading it, but of course Paul doesn’t say clearly who it was. Either way, Paul did not denounce the practice or say that these people were foolish for doing so. Rather, he used it as a means of affirming that there would be a ressurection from the dead, life after death, and that Everything and Everyone would become subject to Christ.
27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
The combination of using baptism for the dead as a positive reason for believing in the ressurection from the dead, and his affirmation that ultimately “all things” will be subject to Jesus, is to me evidence of post-mortem repentance and salvation.
You’re welcome to see what you want, or not see what you want. And you “assume” that they are still in the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone, but that is not stated. But it does show kings and nations, who throughout Revelation have been seen as submitting to the anti-Christ and suffering under the wrath and judgment of God, ultimately coming and paying homage to Jesus who is ultimately the Kind of kings and Lord of lords, ruler over all.
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Note that Jesus doesn’t say that one must be “living” in order to recieve eternal life. Rather, He’s affirming that anyone whoever lives and believe in Him shall never die.
Your affirmation is a common mistake in logic; it is a Negative Conclusion from an Affirmative Statement. For example, “The statement - All red haired men will be saved. Thus we concluded that everyone without red hair will not be saved. Or we conclude that everyone must have red hair in order to be saved.” This logic is incorrect.
John 11:29 affirms that those who have faith in Christ in this life will “never die”, have eternal life. It says nothing of the fate of those who die never having had faith in Christ. To interpret this passage to affirm something negative regarding their fate is to read into this passage more than it says.
The Greek reads like this: Everyone living and believing on me shall by no means be dying for the eon
That’s the literal translation, and thus means something very different that what is being suggested by “Revival”.
So very true. 
Thanks for noting this Mel.
My 12 year-old daughter and I were discussing this very thing last night, the present reality of salvation, except we were discussing Jn.3.16’s “be perishing”. Scripture is much more focused on the present reality of God in our lives and what is happening to us in the present if we are not trusting and obeying Christ. Those who do not know God, are not following Him are perishing. It is not speaking about what will happen Someday, but what is happening Today.
This is one of the hardest paradigm shifts to see because people have been taught, and scripture has even been mistranslated implying a possible future instead of the present reality. The reality is that those who do not have faith in Christ are not reconciled to God and are still in bondage to sin, consumed by evil from within and without; they are perishing. These passages are meant to empower people to repent and trust in God so that they might experience in the present a reconciled relationship to God, freedom from sin and the fear of death. To interpret these passages about some day going to heaven is to miss their point and to mistakenly represent the Gospel. “NOW” is the time of salvation, not “someday”.
The truth is, the more people resist the grace of God, the more they perish and come into bondage to sin, and this continues until they repent.
Yes yes yes.
The kingdom of God is at hand. Eternal life is this, knowing Jesus Christ and God His father.
Both John 11:26 and John 3:16 employ the aorist tense, which doesn’t generally carry the progressive force (“be dying”). Typically it denotes a single, completed action (“die”) rather than something continuous. Of course, there are exceptions when the aorist is used for rhetorical purposes of something that keeps on happening anyway (“believe” and “repent” are examples of that), but even in those cases, it’s used to emphasize the moment in time when the action began. Literally, John 11:26 with the aorist subjunctive translates this way:
Everyone living and believing in Me does not die unto the Age.
Also, the sentence employs a double negative (ou me) for emphasis, so something like Peterson’s rendering of “does not die at all” would work well to draw that out. Personally, as a Universalist that does not subscribe to the “multiple eons” theory of, say, Hanson or Zender, I would feel comfortable colloquially translating it “will never die.”
Just my two quadrans. 
Correct, the word “die” in 11:26 and “perish” in 3:16 are in the aorist tense. The words “live” and “believe” are in the present tense. And in 3:16 the verb “have” is also in the present tense. To me the point of the passages deal with what happens to people in this life, not necessarily in the life to come. Traditionally, Hell, ECT, and possibly Annihilation are read into these passages, but these passages do not affirm that.
Considering all people ultimately die/perish, I believe these reference the tragic endings, the devestation that sin brings, that is both abiding and ultimately ends in a diminished life and death. Also, the focus of the passage is “believing”, living in faith.
Certainly, the progressive nature of “believing” is present in both (participle and all that). I was just pointing out that “be dying/perishing” is not the best way to translate those particular verses, even if such a translation may still be theologically correct (cf. I Corinthians 1:18, for example, uses a participle, indicating progression).
Aaron,
Is it conceivable that the reason you found a knock-out text that other orthodox Christians have not used this way, is because it was not there for them to see? For traditional Christians who believe in the resurrection of the just and the unjust, the assumption that the call to embrace Christ won’t apply later to unbelievers, as if they will only have concious being, during this life, sounds like a denial of life after death.
Aaron has sometimes sounded like he was advocating annihilation, and I asked him last time around if he was, but he never answered that.
Aaron, do you believe in annihilation?
Sonia
No, ma’am.
I look at the completed work of the cross to mean Jesus has put to an end what was separating God from man which was reversing spiritual death. And physical death will soon follow at the resurrection. It is a done deal. Spiritual death no longer has power and dominion in this world because it has been reversed. True, to partake of this personally one has to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, but personal repentance is not the requirement for it to be defeated. Jesus defeated spiritual and physical death at his death and resurrection and all we have do is receive it to partake of it. He has made provision for the world to receive this.
Now this is where the rubber hits the road for UR. For UR to be true you must show where this reconciliation is extended past the consummation of the present age into the age to come, where Scripture suggests it has ended.
That’s all we have to do, eh? Now that’s a worry.
Suppose I receive Jesus into my heart today, change my mind tomorrow, but receive him again the day after? What happens now? Or supposing some days I only sort-of-receive him, but other days I receive him a lot? How good must my receiving be? Will 50% be enough to get me over the line, or must it be better than 75%? (Do you receive Jesus into your heart completely, 100% of the time?) I’m a sinner. My heart’s quite full of myself, most days. I have no idea where I sit on the Receiving Scale, but it wouldn’t be impressive compared to any of the great saints. Since our eternal destiny depends on how well we receive Jesus, it should be a serious worry to all Christians, but I don’t see many of them fretting. Most feel quite confident. (Do you know how well you’ve received Jesus? Are you quite sure? Perhaps the devil’s deceiving you, or your ego.) Can I buy a Receivometer on ebay? I need something to plug into my heart to see if it’s full of Jesus.
Actually, I believe God is in the business of saving us whatever we do, because he loves us all. The good shepherd finds the lost sheep. He doesn’t wait for the sheep to receive him into its heart. He grabs the stupid animal, hauls it out of the blackberry tangle and carries it home. “By grace… not not by works.” “You have not chosen me. I have chosen you.”
These questions seem to be rooted of a misunderstanding of how salvation works. There is no sort-of- receiving him…its either you have a genuine heart belief confession or you don’t. You know when you are being genuine or just going through religious motions.
The Bible says: All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.(Rom 10:13) God is not a liar. God honors your faith when you receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.
The Holy Spirit beareth witness to my spirit that I’m a child of the most high God! ( Rom 8:16) So, Allan, yes, Im quite sure because God says so! Glory to God! Thank you, Jesus!
Actually, not true.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
The gift is the grace where salvation lies not the faith.
Your doctrine seems to be foreign to the Bible, Allan.
So it must be a genuine heart belief confession. On a scale of 1 to 10, how genuine must that be? Will 8/10 be genuine enough? Does my heart belief confession have to be as genuine as Paul’s or Peter’s, or can it be a bit less? I don’t know about you, but my genuineness varies a good deal. What if I die when it’s at a bit of a low ebb? Does God judge me on my average genuineness? How genuine was Jacob’s heart belief confession when God chose him before he was born?
God has told you this? You know it for a fact? How do you know it was the true God who spoke to you and not some very clever imposter? What procedure did you follow that reliably demonstrated your God was in fact GOD?
The God you have invited into your heart tortures his enemies forever in a lake of fire. Frankly, I wouldn’t want that sort of God anywhere near me, let alone in my heart. The God I choose to worship dies for his enemies and forgives them when they torture him. This is a God I can learn to love.
There’s no need for Paul to say grace is a gift (it’s a gift by definition) but there’s every need to say faith is a gift. Firstly, it’s not immediately obvious. Second, Paul knew as well as anyone that faith (wrongly understood) would be elevated to works and be the grounds for boasting. “Hey everyone. Look at my faith. It was my decision, you know. God hoped I’d do the wise thing, and I did. I chose to be faithful. Since then, I’ve worked really hard at it too. Aren’t I wonderful? You know what? I’m saved by my faith, and you can be too. Just believe, but make sure it’s a genuine heart confession belief like mine, or it won’t work, and God will burn you forever in a lake of fire.”
If my doctrine is foreign to the Bible (it isn’t), then goodbye Bible. I trust the good God to save us all. I don’t trust the Bible to save anyone. (Nor did Jesus. He criticized experts in the law for imagining eternal life could be found in the scriptures. No. Eternal life is found only in the goodness of God.)
Praying for you and your family, Allan. God Bless.
Revival,
Pardon me. I’m not trying to be dense or difficult. I just trying to put together a coherent picture of what you believe. What I got from your last post is that the decisive move against death of all kinds was made through the Cross and Resurrection:
Jesus defeated spiritual and physical death at his death and resurrection and all we have do is receive it to partake of it.
I’m with you there, to be sure. But if death of all kinds is defeated, is this defeat for all time, or is death going to take back its reign over most of humanity and reign forever?
Snitz
What you don’t seem to grasp is that death has been stripped of its power and dominion (Heb 2:14-15). It has no more reign it has been reversed. God has made provision for the whosoever’s in this world to take part of this victory through Jesus** in this life. **That is the key, Snitzel. What you and every other UR are trying to do is extend reconciliation past the consummation of the present age into the age to come, where the Bible suggests it has ended.