Keller and Carson on Hell and God’s Love (more details)

[Alex_Smith]

(http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2011/03/05/keller-and-carson-on-hell-and-gods-love-announcement-from-the-gospel-coalition/) , Justin Taylor"]Rob Bell’s forthcoming book Love Wins has already raised perennial questions about universalism, exclusivism, the love of God, and heaven and hell. Every day more voices lend their opinions on the growing controversy—most recently Brian McLaren, Albert Mohler, Scot McKnight, and Mark Galli of Christianity Today among them. The mainstream media, including The New York Times and CNN, have even taken notice.

The book, then, affords Christians the opportunity to revisit the biblical teaching on these weighty matters. Actually, the controversy demands that we seek together how to understand and fit together the Scriptural testimony of God’s character. What did Jesus himself say about God’s wrath and hell? Why did Jesus go to the Cross? And what’s the best way to relate this teaching to a skeptical culture? How do we love our neighbors by relating this news to them?

Responding to significant demand, The Gospel Coalition has added a new event—”God: Abounding in Love, Punishing the Guilty”—addressing these subjects during our upcoming national conference. Starting at 7:30 a.m. on Thursday, April 14, TGC president and co-founder Don Carson will speak from the Grand Ballroom stage at McCormick Place. After about 35 minutes, he’ll be joined in a panel discussion by TGC co-founder and vice president Tim Keller, along with council members Crawford Loritts, Stephen Um, and Kevin DeYoung. The panel will field questions submitted from the audience. The event will conclude at 8:40 a.m. in time to prepare for the morning session on the conference’s final day.

We do not intend in this event to debate one pastor’s opinions. Instead, we want to examine the Bible and review the history of orthodox belief. So don’t miss this special event. Register now for TGC11 and come prepared to study God’s Word together. Most importantly, please pray that God would give the church of Jesus Christ great wisdom and grace in the days ahead.

[Alex_Smith]

Sweet, I got to be the 4th & 5th comments!

Are you going to have anyone speak for Evangelical Universalism or will it be one sided?

Why should they provide a platform for your heretical nonsense?

I am trying to organise some Evangelical Universalists to go to ask questions of the panel.

[Alex_Smith]

And 6th.

Will it be recorded and made available publicly somewhere?

So I don’t spam them, does someone please want to ask that they review Gregory of Nyssa’s Orthodox position?

[Alex_Smith]

Will you be including Gregory of Nyssa’s views in your review of the history of orthodox belief? I’m not personally familiar with his writings, but I’m told he believed in the eventual salvation of all (with the help of as much punishment as necessary to turn the individual to Christ).

You’re a legend!

Anyone who believes in “universal salvation” is not orthodox.

[amy]

Alex, “or will it be one sided.” That’s too funny. I guess they can tell, right out of the gate, where you are coming from.

I noticed in the list of names they don’t say Thomas Talbott, but maybe because he’s not a prominent figure for them. I wonder, then, if they know his book. Sonia’s probably asked it best already. It does sound like it’d be an interesting event to attend, just to see what they do cover and how they respond to those all important questions. I imagine, though, that their answers will probably be fairly predictable.

How encouraging is that, that all those voices are lending themselves to the debate and evangelical universalism is getting some attention. Does look like the discussion is going to be one sided.

[JasonPratt]

I submitted a few questions before I realized that JT hadn’t actually said the comments would be open for questions to be submitted for panel consideration.

So I’ve asked for clarification on this from Justin.

[revdrew61]

A balanced debate?!? There’s not a snowflake’s chance in hell…

[JasonPratt]

Well, to be fair they’re kind of throwing this together at the last moment and trying to squeeze it into an already finalized schedule. Professional scholars, especially if they’re on teaching duty somewhere, have to be able to make arrangements a while in advance (and they might not know of any professionals who advocate Christian universalism.)

[Alex_Smith]

A balanced debate?!? There’s not a snowflake’s chance in hell…

And Origen as well. Both he and Gregory are widely respected and both were universalists.

If they were universalists, then they were heretics.

[Alex_Smith]

Philip Jenkins, in his two-volume history of Christological controversies up to the beginning of the medieval period, mentions in passing that the two founders of the trinitarian Antioch school were universalists, just like some key figures of the time (such as Gregory of Nyssa, “Father of Orthodoxy”) from the trinitarian Alexandrian school. Will you be looking into this in your history of orthodox universalism as well?

(Roman Orthodoxy, which eventually became the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, eventually took a middle path between the generally Alexandrian focus on the divine-over-the-human nature of Christ, and the generally Antiochian focus on the importance of the human-as-well-as-divine nature of Christ; and in taking this middle ground Roman Orthodoxy was concerned about respecting worries from either side of denying the human nature or schisming the two natures of Christ. And all sides are and remain solidly trinitarian concerning the level of God’s own existence, defending this notion against modalistic and Arian notions. So universalists as well as non-universalists had a hugely positive influence on what became Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic, thus eventually also conservatively Protestant orthodox doctrines of God.)

Following up Dave’s question: will the preaching of a doctrine of universalism affect the non-salvation of even a single non-elect person (given the Calvinistic understanding of non-election, or some subvariants thereof)?

Are Christian universalists being too evangelical in preaching that God will persist in acting to save all sinners from sin? Or would you say Christian universalists are not being evangelical enough in preaching that God will persist in acting to save all sinners from sin?

When a Christian universalist insists that a person’s repentance is necessary for a person’s salvation to be completed (from the temporal perspective of the person) but also insists that a person cannot repent from sin unless and until God empowers and leads that person to repent (however long that might take), how is this substantially different from Calvinistic notions of reformation of the person (or from thoughtful Arminian notions of God’s sovereignty in salvation for that matter)?

[JasonPratt]

Let me emphasize that the person (“Tom”) who was replying to the questions as Alex reported (and who basically said afterward some things that for charity’s sake I would rather not repeat), was not JustinT or KevinDY, nor (so far as I know) any other teacher in “The Gospel Coalition” (the webring sponsoring the conference in Chicago.)

[Alex_Smith]

I’d just like to publicly thank all those (especially Jason & Andrew, although I’ve seen other familar faces there ) who have been able to get involved with the comments on Justin Taylor’s blog. I think it makes a difference for people to see us patiently (as much as we are able) respond with thoughtful answers, rather than insults.

[SLJ]

I just spent some time reading through the comments on that post–I agree, very nicely done!

Sonia

[revdrew61]

That thread seems to have dried up now, so I’ve started to join in on this one… thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2011/03/07/the-complex-of-gods-emotions-beware-of-putting-god-in-a-box/?comments#comments
Help!!

[SLJ]

I’ve been enjoying reading through the comments. It is tempting to join in, but you and Jason are doing a much better job than I could, and I’ve been pretty busy lately, so I’ll just kick back watch the fun. freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink062.gif

Sonia

[amy]

I’m with you, Sonia. I’m enjoying kicking back and reading their interaction. You guys are great about the way you explain things!

[revdrew61]

Here’s an intersting link from the comments on a recent Justin Taylor post…

fakecarson.blogspot.com/2011/03/open-letter-to-entire-evangelical-world.html

Well, fancy that!

[stellar_renegade]

I loved Carson’s entry to pieces.

Reading too much of Reformed doctrine just makes me feel sick inside. I was hardly ever exposed to it when I was younger. Strange that I’m going to a Reformed church now, eh?

[revdrew61]

Stellar: Its been making me feel pretty nauseous too… all this rejoicing at the fate of the non-elect, anger, arrogant self-righteousness etc. It seems like the absolute opposite of the gospel to me, but what do I know? Any way it has been good to have some dialogue and help put EU on the map for the first time for many of these brothers and sisters.

So why are you attending that church - as a kind of 5th columnist? My church youth worker is a fan of Driscoll and some of his teaching is good, but he can be a bit of a thug I think. He did a sermon about how “the Jesus of Revelation is a guy with a tattoo on his leg, a sword in his hand and a commitment to make someone bleed” and said that’s the Jesus he worships - he couldn’t worship a guy he could beat up! Very amusing, but sick. And very poor biblical exegesis - Greg Boyd blogged a brilliant rejoinder gregboyd.org/blog/revelation-and-the-violent-prize-fighting-jesus/

I pray you can be salt and light there. Stay good!

[SLJ]

Reading too much of Reformed doctrine just makes me feel sick inside. I was hardly ever exposed to it when I was younger. Strange that I’m going to a Reformed church now, eh?

I grew up on it. I was very depressed and didn’t know why. I felt guilty 'cause Christians are supposed to be charactarized by “joy.” And the so-called “Christian joy” that is unrelated to a feeling of happiness, but is based on the security of having escaped hell, just didn’t seem satisfying–it was too wistful and sad.

When I first started seeing glimmers of the truth of UR, I felt a surge of hope–a hope indescribably grand, yet coupled with a matching fear. The fear that it might be too good to be true.

When I began to be convinced, then came joy–glorious beautiful joy–the kind that actually** feels** joyful! Only after reveling in that joy did I realize how much I had been under bondage to the doctrine of hell. I heard the crys of the lost, felt their pain, shuddered at the horror of their hopelessness. I had known of course that it was a sorrow to me, it didn’t make sense to me, I pleaded with God to save the lost. I just didn’t realize it was the source of my general constant state of unhappiness and morose negativity.

I’m glad to be done with that!
Sonia