All – but especially Tom
It’s interesting how we all here shade and nuance our views on sovereignty and freedom so that we remain true to the truth we see in each idea.
Reminding myself that the question which started this thread for me was “Is Love really volitional?”. My answer – which came to me as something of a surprise; I’ve always heard/assumed that ‘love is a choice’ – was no. It really seemed to me nothing much at all like a choice. And it’s not like I even wanted to love God - it just sort of happened!
Which triggers flashbacks of something I’ve heard so many many times over the years, and am sure most of you have too. People say that “God can/will save those who want to be saved” or other similar things. (Heaven will be populated by people who want to be there; God will give people what they want, and so on)
Desire, hope, yearning, (ie wanting) all seem to be important, sure. I’d bet every single one of us here have experienced that deep and earnest desire for that “hole in our hearts” to be filled by the only One who can. God. Except there’s a rather big problem with this idea it would seem.
From where does this desire, hope, yearning come? Does God restrict Himself to saving only those who can conjure up and manufacture that desire on their own? Or does God Himself have the right to place it there in the first place?
A prime hallmark of sin, it seems to me, is disordered thinking. Our desires often have little to do with our own true self interest. We not only see and evaluate matters incorrectly, when we do see them properly we seem unable to muster the proper response. So even if I did somehow manage to have the proper wants, I find my actions do not reflect this. How frustrating, confusing, and hopeless! Maybe a bit like Paul in Romans 7??
And then of course, as sin deepens its grip on us, the prospects for ‘wanting’ what God wants for us grow even dimmer. Am I even “free” to generate my own righteous wants? Many worry that God can not allow a free mind to be “determined”. Well, why not have that same worry at the way SIN “determines” us??
It’s as if I have this inner sense here that things, in the realm of freedom, must somehow be “fair”. That the playing field must be level. But even as I say this, I find myself having little trouble wishing that God would heavily tilt things not so they were level and “fair”, but that they be so profoundly to my advantage that my salvation is all but guaranteed. This of course seems quite reasonable to me given that God knows and is aligned with what is best for me far far better than I am.
Which makes me wonder; would it in fact be a violation of my freedom if God just deposited in me the correct desires? So that I would want, yearn for, earnestly desire, what He knows is truly in my best interest? Given that I’m not even able to know what is in my best interest, let alone able to generate the proper desire, it would seem a gross dereliction of duty on God’s part should He allow ones eternal destiny to be controlled by what is obviously distorted and disordered thinking!
Can’t we say that such distortions and disorder (Cindy talked about chaos and randomness… same idea maybe Cindy??) are totally incompatible with the kind of freedom God insists we have before we even contemplate such a serious decision?? Thus, what I guess I’m trying to say is that most common thought on this subject has it completely backwards. God does not violate our freedom when He implants within us desires for Him and then guides us to the ordered thinking necessary for freedom to actually be realized; rather, He establishes freedom in doing this.
It sounds odd to suggest that God “forces” freedom on us, but that’s pretty close to what I mean.
Or something like that…
Thanks all
Bobx3