The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Love: is it REALLY Volitional? ie a “free choice”?

Steve & Sturmy

These are very interesting comments.
Couple other stories/ideas to add to the mix:
Recall this from elsewhere on the site? I often use this story when someone protests that “if Universalism is true, why not just go ahead and keep on sinning??!!”

**

**

Next however is a somewhat more sobering thought – one my son brought up to me a couple days ago. (He’s home on spring break for the week!)
We will be considering, at church this week, what it means to “Carry/bare ones Cross”. And for a great many this seems to suggest all the “hardships” that will befall the dedicated follower of Christ. But, while to some extent that may be true, what Christ is inviting us to is death! The Cross is a symbol of death; horrible and dramatic and awful. Come DIE with Me is the invitation. And do it daily! Paul uses the same imagery too of course.

Well then I said, we certainly understand that death to be a death to self; our old man of sin, our sinful selfish nature, must die so that we can rise to new life with Him. So since Christ didn’t need to experience that same death to self, being the perfect Reflection of the Father Himself, and having never sinned, our death would be a different one from Christ’s - right??

“Maybe not dad” - my son says… Christ appears to have struggled in the garden, just before His death, with His own will being in tension with the Father’s will. Christ then prays, not MY will, but THY will be done. So it would seem that His human will, His human desire, pulled Him away from His task ahead and He somehow mustered the desire and ability to align His will with the Father!

So, was Christ modifying His will? or His desires? I’m not sure. The Hosea Ballou story strongly implies that Universalism means not license to go my own way, but rather transformation of my inner self, or innate will and desire to always do the right thing so that the struggle and tension are gone. We become different people; ones for whom sin is no longer even considered to be an option.

A slightly different shade then to this evolving painting of how will and freedom and desire all work together…???

Bobx3

Let Us make man in Our own image…And God saw that it was very good.

The problem with the dog analogy is that dogs don’t have a sense of morality. Nor do they have a conscience. There motives are mainly instinctive. Oh, you can train them to do some tricks, maybe even have them salivate at the sound of a bell, but their world is constricted to being a dog. Do dogs really love? Or is it just a fond affection for their master? I don’t think they can love in the sense that they can consciencely decide to obey, but they can be trained to do certain tasks (fetch the frisbee, roll over, retrieve the shot bird,etc). But that is the component of their nature as dogs that makes it possible. Try training a cat in the same way. Won’t work will it? How about your iguana?

We have a goldfish that my youngest daughter won at a church fair some 5 years ago. Surprisingly, it has survived this long (most goldfish I’ve seen won at fairs have died within three days). I know when the fish is hungry, because when she sees one of us approach the bowl, she sees us and goes into an agitated state, wiggling her tail back and forth. Yet when I shake the food into her bowl, she scurries away in a flash. Why? Because her survival instinct warns her of danger, even though I am actually preserving her life with the very food I’m providing. But beyond that, there is really no relationship between me and the fish. I care for the fish because I respect her as a creation that can be appreciated for her beauty. But the fish only looks to be fed.

Making us in God’s image has given us something wholely apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. God has given us attributes that match His own. That includes a conscience and a consciousness of our world and a rational mind to reason. He’s given us a means to commune with Him through the spirit of Man. (God may commune with the animals too, but not rationally). And if God is essentially Love, then we must have that capacity as well. Yet for love to happen, we must be able to consciencely exercise that love. Or in other words, the capacity to do good. But if we do have that capacity, then we also must have the autonomy to express that love through action (or non-action as the case may be).

Instead of talking predestination vs free will, we should be talking about our choices as it relates to God’s purpose in creating us. In the Garden, Adam and Eve were free to do whatever they wanted. To explore their world and behold God’s creation, including their own creation. Just as the rest as the animal were free to do what they wanted. They could talk to God without perfect communion, ask what they wanted and God would answer back. They were free to do what their hearts desired because it was all in accordinance with God’s creation. There was no sin, because there was nothing to indicate what they were doing was wrong.

But as soon as the prohibition of the tree was entered into their minds, a new dynamic was introducted. Why in the world would God place this prohibition? Why mess up what seems to be the perfect environment? This was inviting disaster!

Because this was the cost of making someone in His own image. If God has a will, then Man must also have a will. And the prohibition was to test Man’s will to see if it would he would obey (that is love) God. God could have made Man a dog, as loyal as a dog would be. But God wanted something better. He wanted someone who could consciencely love Him and Man’s fellow creation. How could He do that if Man didn’t have the choice to love?

They say the Law kills. It kills because it forces us to make a choice. To obey or disobey. And it cuts right into our core of being because it interferes with our volition and our desires. Because deep down, we don’t like to be told what to do. Our ego tell us that we are our own being.

Sin is not some object that rests in our heart. Sin if the fundamental tendancy to go against the Law of God. And that inclination was born as soon as God made that prohibition. I believe with or without the serpents help, man would have eventually caved. (Some believe that the serpent is Man’s ego, but that’s a different topic).

The question is, could man have avoided falling? Perhaps. What would the thought process be? There is nothing in the account to indicate that they even questioned God about the prohibition (though Eve was questioned by the serpent about it). But they knew that it had the consequence of death. But even that didn’t prevent them.

One might ask that of people who don’t accept Christ as Savior, even though they might believe they are going to Hell if they don’t. For some reason, their ego prevents them.

So why did they disobey? Because they were lied to? But the serpent really didn’t lie to them. Technically, they didn’t surely die that day, at least not physically. It did open their eyes (they saw they were naked). And they became like gods (they consented to their own will and desires). And they now know good and evil (especially the evil part in that they disobeyed God).

All the serpent did was to set up the independent thinking process for the woman to examine the situation in line with her ego, which had the potential to will independently from God. (The word “beguiled” in the Hebrew does not mean “tricked”, but rather it carries the thought of being seduced, causing the person to conjecture). The serpent preyed on the woman’s sense and sensabilities. She thought long and hard about it and it played into her decision making. It marked the point of becoming independent of God.

But I ask you, was this necessarily a bad thing? Well, it wasn’t what God would have preferred. He’d rather that they would have obeyed Him in the first place. (My thought is that eating the Tree of Life would have concluded the test of obedeince as it would have demonstrated a dependence on God in spite of the independent will of Man. The prohibition would have been lifted or the prohibited tree removed. The Man and Woman would have been essentially saved.)

The will of God is for Man to come into a relationship with Him. That is salvation, not just getting into heaven and avoiding hell. That relationship is based on Love that is reciprocated in a dependent-independent manner of speaking. We are free to be ourselves in Christ. And as long as the Life and Spirit of God resides in us, then we are made to be the creatures He intended us to be.

The drawing of God to Himself will never fade, and He will draw all men to Himself. And that persistence will continue until Man finally let’s go of his ego and falls back into the arms of God. Only then will His likeness be made complete in us. We will be made in His image once again as new creature in Christ.

Good thoughts everyone and much to think about… :wink:

I just want to touch on one of the ideas in your post,Bob, that I think is important and see if we can come to some more understanding.

I think it’s worth also remembering that Paul said:

So however Christ was able to subordinate his will to the Father’s is what we are destined to do when we have been conformed to His image it would seem. Now this came up on another thread awhile back and Akimel pointed out that the Sixth Ecumenical Council asserted that Christ had both a divine and a human will. Now does that mean that we will have both a divine and human will? Perhaps, but if that’s the case we must also submit our human will to the divine will. Does that mean our human will changes or that we develop a stronger desire to submit to God’s will? :confused: The process of becoming like Christ is known as theosis in Eastern Orthodox theology apparently but I’m not especially familiar with how that process is perceived. I’ll tag [tag]akimel[/tag] as he may be able to enlighten us if he has the time. :smiley:

To the question, will we eventually receive a divine will, I think the answer is no, at least according to Chalcedonian Christianity. The reason we attribute a divine will to Christ is because he is the eternal Son who has assumed human nature, which means that he possesses both the divine nature and human nature. Even according to the highest understandings of Orthodox deification, we never come to possess the divine essence, which is why the Orthodox developed the essence/energies distinction: by grace we are given to participate in the divine energies of God but we never are given to possess the divine essence; otherwise, we would become divine hypostases.

Thank you very much Father Kimel. :smiley:
That’s very helpful and clarifies much for me…

I appreciate your input.

Firstly the more I think of what I said earlier the less I’m certain; I said previously:

I reserve the right though to qualify that… I’m not really sure that’s really the way it works!?!

Bob’s son said:

I think one of the problems is the way we define will. We can speak of will meaning desire or wish but also meaning our intention, that faculty that determines a choice, even the strength to follow our determination, though the latter may be will power But Will power has the connotation of gritting ones teeth.

Let me explain further what I mean in the above thought about Jesus in the garden I’m not sure that Christ’s will ( human) was in tension with the father. I suggest that what He meant by His own will was the natural human instinct to avoid pain and to survive and be spared a trying experience. At the same time it was actually His will in the sense of determination to follow the Fathers desire which He saw as always the better choice - his determination then was to follow the Father and I think this is a space where He lived all His life and I suppose this is what putting ones will in submission is.The fathers will might require His life or might not, in line with his own human desire but the Fathers desire was always paramount. I Think there is a subtle difference. It was always his default position.

So back to my earlier comment, the more I think of that, I implied that ones response might finally be to the stronger desire and it was this desire that the Spirit increased. This may be true but I think perhaps it is a position we are brought to that Gods will is always paramount,rather as the will of a loved one is paramount in our minds not considering ourselves ( ideally)

Rambling a bit there and posting this whilst eating my curry lunch so forgive if not entirely coherent!

Cheers to All S

This is really helpful to me, Sturmy! :smiley:

This is very true and one that helps clarify the conversation. I’m going to label these as it might make it easier to refer to these specific definitions as we proceed.
Sturmy’s Definitions of "Will"
A= One’s desire or wish
B= One’s intention
C= The faculty that determine’s a choice
D=The strength to follow one’s determination (or intention?)

I’m sort of thinking out loud here so bear with me. :wink: So perhaps I can show this process of Jesus submitting to the Father’s Will symbolically using the definitions above…

Desire**" A’ "= God the Father’s desire in any situation
Desire “A”= Jesus’s desire to avoid pain, death and trying experience of the Passion
Desire
“A1”= Jesus’ desire to always follow the Father’s desires if they conflict with his own human desires.
Jesus’ “Will” (faculty to determine a choice)= C
Jesus’ intention after
C **analyzes A and A1=B
Jesus’ strength to implement B = D

(“A1” (desire that A’ be fulfilled) always >>>** “A”) ----> analyzed by C**---->results in B----> B then implemented by D

So, just like Christ, we will eventual get to the point where our greatest desire is (A1), to see God’s desire’s (A’)implemented. I agree that this has to be a work of the Spirit and would involve not only making A1 always >A, but also knowing what God’s desire (A’) actually is…being educated in some way (study of Jesus’ life, scripture, learning from life and Christian teachers before us etc.) under the guidance of the Spirit as well as by direct revelation from the Spirit.

Does this seem right? Corrections? Other thoughts? :confused:

All:
Over on Tom’s current thread I made this point and hope Tom can address it eventually. Also curious how you’ve seen this matter as well…

Bobx3

Excellent point, Bob! :smiley:

How does one repent and “come to Christ”? If our will is indeed so “fallen and contrary” then it seems that conversion comes about by pure Grace…God doing something to bring us to that point where we have no choice but to “come to Christ.” Might that process involve learning that following our own will does not bring about what we truly desire? Perhaps we learn from the **consequences **of following our own will that it can’t be relied on, leads to headache and misery, and thus give up our will and submit to God’s will? Is this submitting to God’s will actually what conversion is? (i.e. the submission of our will is *part *of conversion itself and not something that follows) Is this then a “free-will” decision even though it is brought about by the Grace of God? :confused:

Alec & Bob,

Alec
I think that pretty much summarised my thinking there Alec and as you say

; I think as Paul says Php 2:13 “For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.”,- which he sees as us ‘working out’ our salvation.

Bob
Yes following the activity on Tom’s thread closely; you said

Yes it’s crazy, isn’t it. It’s a little akin to thinking that our rational thinking can’t be relied upon, yet they’re using that very thinking to arrive at that conclusion.

The more I think about it the less I see us as autonomous beings that God ‘influences’ with our permission on occasions but that literally it’s in Him that we live and breath and have our being, His activity in our lives sustaining us in every way from start to finish, which all sounds a bit mystical but an analogy might be like wave motion through the sea; yet is not the sea. (not speaking pantheism)

Good exercise for the minds, folk, I think these topics are really important because they cut to the core of Arminian thinking.

Sturmy

You’ll notice, Paidion, that the determinists here have not addressed the problem of evil at all - why it exists, why an all good all powerful God needs it in his creation, what its existence means regarding God’s character, and whether it destroys our ability to differentiate between good and evil altogether.

If God can irresistibly enlighten people to choose good, why does he not always?

I’m waiting for an answer to this. In particular, one that does not somehow make God metaphysically dependent on evil in some way.

Regarding your concerns above, as to why God does not ever (or only very rarely) interfere with freedom. Wouldn’t he have to at some point let the consequences of free will actually occur? Otherwise, if he kept correcting every evil choice - if he kept turning every weapon into a blade of grass, as Lewis said, the moment one went to use it evilly - wouldnt this really just result in a world of no free will?

Now, after much deliberating and thinking hard (again) about the deterministic view, I believe more than ever in an Arminian, synergistic model of sanctification. That’s not to say that there are not times in which we are irresistibly drawn to do good acts (such as the mother who cannot but love her child), but I think it is undeniable that these sort of acts are altogether different in kind from the grand type of acts of self sacrificial love or repentance.

As far as Dr. Talbott’s concern that there must be SOME degree of rationality for free will to exist (citing his delusional example) I whole heatedly agree. I want to be very clear that libertarian freedom does NOT deny an element of rationality present in the moment of moral decision. It is just that the amount of information in the intellect is not such that it determines the will. That means that even the consequences of our moral acts cannot be seen in such a way that they make sin impossible, for that would rob the act of a certain amount of worth if it served “necessity” as Milton says, and not Goodness as such. In other words, there must be enough room to do either good or bad. That’s what makes free will so important, it imparts true agent causation and identity to the creature, without which we merely become an instrumental extension (without any ability AT ALL) of the divine will. But if that’s the case, how do we make sense of our feeling of causation? If we cannot really do anything when it boils down to it, if we really have no power to do otherwise, how are the commands and requests of God intelligible? How do we make sense of warnings, exhortations, advice? How do we make sense of Paul saying “receive not the grace of God in vain”?

One last thing: how does determinism account for the notions of sin and guilt? It’s bee all quiet on this question as well.

Hi Chris, :smiley:

You said:

I’m not sure if I’m being put in the determinist group or not with what I wrote above. :confused: My point is simply that whether we have libertarian free-will or not, following our own will exclusively will lead to heartache, trouble and bad choices. I agree with Bobx3 that it seems irrational that our eternal salvation would be trusted to our own “fallen and contrary” will. However, I think what I’m describing as God letting us know how broken and poor our own will is because of the consequences of our poor decisions could lead us to make a decision to submit our wills to his. This could very well be a “free-will” decision of some sort, but perhaps not “libertarian free-will” decision as eventually, I don’t think there would be any desire to follow our own will…at least we would take that step to begin to submit to God’s will. I suspect this is similar to what Dr Talbott described and does preserve our “freedom” while inevitably leading to one choosing God’s will.

As far as why evil exists, I think you are correct that being able to make our own choices and experience the consequences of those is necessary for individuation. The consequences of a finite being without God’s will making choices will inevitably result in “bad” choices, some of which are evil. What about culpability? That’s a bit more difficult as some “bad” choices resulting in evil may have been to some degree determined by influences beyond one’s control, but by experience I can say that I have made “bad” choices knowing that they were wrong and at least feel culpable for them.

I wonder if the opposing choice, the “good” choice presented to my conscience, is in fact, an echo of what God’s will is in that situation (at least at times)? Perhaps comparing the outcome of choices where I follow my “bad” desires from my own imperfect will with the outcome (or consequences) when I follow my conscience (perhaps God’s will in some way) **is necessary **to be eventually able to submit my will to God’s? Maybe the desire to follow my own will decreases and the desire to follow or submit to God’s increases with my “will” choosing that which is the stronger desire at the time…

Overall, Chris, I think I’m largely in agreement with you. What do you think? :smiley:

Chris,

FWIW, it may be easy to appeal to the ‘converted’ such as Paidion :slight_smile: But my impression is that you just don’t find the responses concerning your sense of evil’s nature convincing. For my perception is that I and others who question your impression of freedom’s nature as the power of contrary choice have offered several responses as to why evil may be inevitable in finite creatures who are developing their distinct identity, etc. I imagine Dr. Talbott will continue to develop his own impression of how this may work. Telling Paidion that others have no thoughts responsive to these questions, or that your conclusions are “undeniable,” isn’t likely to persuade skeptics.

Oh, okay . . . I get it. Chris, you feel that WE’RE the determinists. I was trying to figure that out . . . what determinists? I don’t see any determinists. No wonder! It was me! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: (Only really, I don’t think there are any determinists here – except for Cole, and I don’t think you were particularly addressing him in this case.)

Bob, perhaps I missed your explanation of why evil is an inevitable and/or necessary part of the creation of an omnipotent, all-good being. If so I apologize. Do you mind repeating your reasoning?

Cindy and Alex: I’m not accusing anyone in particular of being a determinist. Just thinking out loud, characterizing the view itself and criticizing it. Sorry if I came off as accusatory. Wasn’t my intention at all! I can see why my language suggests that though (“determinists here”), but i really didnt have a particular person in mind. I just think some of the thoughts here presented lead logically either to determinism or do not offer an adequate response (in the way of justifcation) for evils existence.

In short, if God can “cause” or guarantee by way of intellectual illumination that we will not sin, why does he not always? The response may be that we “need” to experience sin for such and such a reason. But surely that seems like a defect of ourselves and not a metaphysical necessity (and thus could have been otherwise). God does not need to experience evil to know good, does he? His very being is goodness as such, and in him is no darkness at all. Seeing as I think evil is pure privation, I hold that Gods asiety is maximally fulfilled by and through himself. He is in no way dependent on evil. But if he is omnipotent, why must he make a creation with evil? It all boils down I believe to saying that evil has some sort of “control” over the directions of Gods actions; that there is some higher tribunal than his own omnipotent and all-good will to which he is reluctantly submitting to. As if he said “well, I wish I didn’t have to have all this evil to get the good I want but there’s nothing I can do about it.” HOW can this be though? If God is the ground of all being whatsoever, what he wills is perfect goodness, which he loves perfectly, which has no evil in it at all. I don’t think such a mindset possible for God if he has determined everything; that is, I think it a logical contradiction for God to will two different things or to have variance within himself regarding a determined creation of his (it must be all good and all pleasing, given determinism, for WHAT makes it bad? Where did the evil in it come from? The very laws of being come FROM him and no other will is interrupting his causal chain.)

Does it even make sense to say that evil positively ADDS to the good or perfection of creation? I don’t believe so. That would be like saying I must cheat on my wife to have the best possible marriage. Moreover, if this principle of “evil necessary for more good” were true, it would destroy the meaning of evil altogether (for it would be evil if such evil was NOT done since less good would follow) and would also render absurd any effort from ourselves to alleviate the present evils in the world (for they all add to a “higher good”.)

The whole notion of positing evil as a “source” of good is to me absurd, and when taken to its conclusion destroys both my notions of good and evil altogether.

Further, for all those that deny the intelligibility of free will and the ability to do otherwise, I have not yet seen any attempt to answer how we can be morally responsible for our acts, what this does to our notions of sin and guilt (are we guilty if God determined the universe such that sin was unavoidable?) and how we are to make sense of advice, promptings, warnings, etc - all of which assume we really do have the ability to act better than we do when we sin.

It’s not a question that can be answered in the space of a forum page, IMO, Chris. Would you like references to some articles/books?

What question are you speaking towards specifically?

That’s a good question too :smiley:

I think there are two questions, both of which have been argued over, written about, preached about for many centuries without coming to a conclusion that everyone is happy with
So whether it is free will/determinism, or whether God created, or allows, or has decreed, evil, or in fact if evil even ‘esists’ - those ARE the big questions, and it will take your lifetime to find an answer. Maybe more. I know of books that deal with the issues, I’m sure your friends and mine on the forum could recommend 100 books in the next 10 minutes.
FWIW I think there is free will that is finite and bounded, influenced, but still free - a spectrum of freedom. And a determinism that also has a range of freedom.
And that God is not responsible for evil, nor does He want it.

i cannot prove either of those things, but they cannot be disproved either.

It’s a journey, and I’m still on it, and still listening to all the voices on the forum.

Chris I think you’re misunderstanding me (or perhaps I’m misunderstanding you) :confused:

On another thread, you quoted this from George Macdonald….

I think you agree with this—that creating beings separate from Himself is difficult and I’m agreeing that because of this, “bad choices”, indeed “evil” is inevitable though not necessary.

The process I’m describing is a process that isn’t immediate, it isn’t God turning on a switch, it is God simply letting us learn that it is best to follow His will and not our own because of the consequences of our mistakes. He doesn’t intervene to illuminate directly as that type of change would be “forced” (and perhaps violate our freedom). This type of change would not be really a part of our character, I’d say. At the same time, the type of change I’m describing is a work of God’s where we can claim no glory for ourselves. Do we think highly of ourselves when we learn not to put a hand on a hot stove? I’m proposing that this process continues into the after-life, in a “purgatory” if you will for those that need it (which may be all of us, I don’t know).

I’ll just repeat what I said upthread.

Chris,

Thanks, I appreciate your gracious efforts to evaluate and sort out the options here. I must admit again these won’t seem any more adequate to you than your explanation seems to me. But I did take a stab at the logic of evil & responsibility in this thread on March 19:

"The alternative to simply explaining terrible things by a magic pill freedom to be foolishly perverse which has nothing to do with God, may not require a scripted ‘determinism.’ Yet perhaps God established the very conditions that make bad choices and the need to learn and grow through them unavoidable. Indeed Scripture’s God seems to see our inability as the grounds that call for grace toward our blameworthiness (his mercy knows we’re made of dust…Because I was ignorant, God had mercy on me-Paul… Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do).

If a two year old disobediently ran in the street, though we’d temper our response with compassion, we might employ painful consequences, even IF we saw that she had not yet sufficiently grasped the implications of that choice in order to properly make it. God’s need to condition and train me in righteousness can feel like this to me. So we may see evil and punitive ‘blame’ as requiring the ability to freely transcend our ignorant finitude. But could it be that even if we lacked such amazing ability, a gracious pedagogy would still treat us with responsibility and consequences in order that we can learn and grow into the character and conscious identity that God intends for us as persons distinct from Him?"

I also addressed the dilemma of evil on March 20:
"I agree that where I’ve pushed seems to troublingly diminish the very concept of ‘evil.’ But “cause” is a tricky word. So when you say, God surely wouldn’t “cause Evil for some higher purpose,” I suspect you see the high value of ‘freedom’ as what makes having evil worth it (i.e. God sees a need for that in his creation, and that effectively means that there will be evil). In that case, it seems that we’re just quibbling about what higher purpose warrants evil, and this creation where it seems inevitable.

You just want a satisfactory explanation of evil!!! But That is THE challenge for theism (I often think the only huge one) that great minds have struggled to satisfy!!! One has to appreciate here the attraction of process theism (which at least coherently gets god off the hook), and perhaps join the host who aren’t sure what could make having such evil be worth it.

As you’re aware, Talbott seems to reflect much on these questions, though I don’t think I’m able to comprehend all he says. As I’ve alluded, I suspect the more determinist alternative lies in the direction that forming genuine persons of character distinct from God can’t happen by just programming them to know nothing but the divine instinct (what you call “our own consciousness” and reflect on in your attached “faces” post), rather than the kind of character development that is possible living in an inevitable mixture of good and bad (whether the bad is conceived of as a direct or indirect result)."

(My previous post to you also on March 20 elaborated on the need for a process as well)