The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Making Friends with Calvinists

Evangelical Universalism
#61

So I did a quick search of the IFB up on wikipedia, and it looks like they’re Baptists who split with Baptists who, apparently, weren’t acting Baptist enough. :open_mouth: :confused:

Now, Baptists are probably the most common denomination around my neck of the woods, and I love many Baptist people dearly. However, Baptists who leave other Baptists, deeming them a bunch of “liberal hippies”… well… I wouldn’t be heading to any of their church potlucks anytime soon!

This is very true, Andrew. Having pacifist sympathies, I am often quick to voice my approval of a Christ-like government. That is, I don’t want a theocracy, but I wish a government existed that would strive to value of human life as would Christ. But your statement is very true – Jesus did not come to instruct us in "governing " others but in loving them. So I suppose that I mean to say that I wish, not for specifically Christian rulers, but rather Christ-like rulers – those who understand and practice Jesus’ words about love and mercy while understanding the importance of the separation of church and state.

Good-night, everyone. :slight_smile:

Kate

And Dave, I actually haven’t heard “Kiss Me Kate,” but I really should, as I need a themesong, I think. :laughing: I will belt to just about anything – but some of my favorites are “Matchmaker,” “Wouldn’t it be Lovely?” and “Good Morning, Baltimore” – with many others. But I am a terrible singer, so I’ll only belt within the safe confines of my car or an empty house. :laughing:

#62

Independent Fundamental Baptists… :angry: :angry: :angry: :exclamation:

Google the name Jack Hyles. That about says it all.

Here is a 20/20 program about them as well that will make you lose your lunch:

#63

:cry: :angry:

Yes - this is not fine in any way. Any Christians who act in this way - no matter what their abstract theology is - are offending against the Gospel.

#64

It is possible to be friends with people whose beliefs differ radically from your own – of course it sir and that’s a beautiful, beautiful thing. It puts right belief in its proper perspective as not being the one thing needful.

It is possible and a real gift to do as Jason does and Robin does – to discus common ground between Christians of widely different eschatological beliefs in a reasoned, sober and compassionate way.

When it come to say theonomists sectarians and their ilk however – speaking as one who has much experience of hearing stories of people who have been in authoritarian and abusive churches – I think that on the whole we are in a different ball game. We must strive to be fair, build bridges, and open up possibilities for dialogues. But we have to be firm and not go all warm and fuzzy in a mush of generalisations about friendship with fellow believers.

To everything there is as season and a time for every purpose under the sun,

Love

Dick

#65

I’ve got some stuff I’d like to say here, but I think I filled my quota of verbiage for the day over on Dick’s Erasmus thread :laughing:

Maybe tomorrow :slight_smile:

Blessings and thanks for starting a good thread, Kate :slight_smile:

Matt

#66

Yes it’s a brilliant thread Kate - and much needed discussion. :smiley:

#67

What a saddening video, Dan. It always saddens me most to see children – innocents simply born to a specific family and placed in a specific pew – suffer at the hands of others.

I know there are stories like this one for every denomination out there, and I just want to clarify that this thread in no way means to typify any particular sect. For anyone reading here who might be offended and accuse us of stereotyping, please remember that many Christian universalists have suffered at the hands of hyper-fundamentalist Christians, so naturally in the course of talking about friendship, we’ll reveal some underlying feelings of hurt. It’s only human honesty.

I did some quick research, and I discovered that ,apparently, there are hundreds of IFB churches in Ohio. I even live close to a few and know some individuals who attend there. None of them strike me has hateful individuals – quite the opposite – and I doubt they even know the harm which some IFB leaders have caused. So I think that even in “extreme” churches, you find many people who are pure-of-heart. And thank goodness for that!

And thanks, Matt and Dick, for the kind words about my thread. Coming from two of our veteran philosophers, that means a lot. :slight_smile:

With love from the Midwest,

Kate

#68

Calvin Mercer who has written a very good book on Fundamentalism and its psychological mechanisms – that can turn abusive in a group setting and sometimes very abusive indeed – concludes his book with a loving, delightful portrait of two fundamentalists who do wonderful work mentoring kids in ghettos (and actually when you speak to them don’t major on the doctrine but rather on their love and concern for kids). He writes -

**I would prefer to have Gerri and Rev. Otis as my neighbours, rather than an arrogant non-fundamentalist who interprets the Bible like I do. I would prefer my children to be mentored by Gerri and Rev Otis rather than by a selfish non fundamentalist who thinks like I do about God. All fundamentalists are not alike, as all non fundamentalists are not either. Both fundamentalists and non fundamentalists have incredibly loving, generous, contributing members of society. While I acknowledge that, I do not back down from my basic thesis. I think on balance fundamentalist Christianity is biblically unsound, theologically suspect, and psychologically dangerous, and it is a threat to the common good when it influences public policy and political processes. **

Is this useful Kate? :slight_smile:

#69

Very helpful, indeed! :smiley: Exactly what I was trying to say – I wish I had a quote and citation for my every thought as you seem to, Uncle Prof. :laughing: My brain would run much more smoothly that way!

#70

Okay. Deep breath.

The problem here isn’t really Calvinists. I have come to believe that Calvinists are just as much victims as those who, like Andrew and Allan and others on this forum, have been burned by Calvinist theology. No, the problem is Calvinism. Hard core, five point TULIP Calvinism. Most particularly the doctrine of predestination, ie that some people are chosen by God for salvation and others aren’t - and there’s nothing they can do about it.

This doctrine is evil beyond belief. And the so-called ‘god’ who decrees it cannot, by any meaningful definition, be ‘god’. Rather he is a devil. The devil. A monster of cosmic proportions who makes Polpot look like Mother Theresa. If he wanted to he could save everybody who has ever lived, but he chooses not to. He chooses to save me, but not to save my brother or my wife or my best mate, “for the manifestation of His glory”. In other words, and in plain terms, he chooses to burn countless billions in hell for all eternity to show, to counterpoint - to showcase, if you like - his own majesty and holiness and wonderfulness.

Clearly, anybody who actually, honestly, with all their heart, believes this wicked doctrine to be true, is either insane or wicked themselves. There is no alternative. If you believe in and worship a god who could save your daughter from an eternity of agony in hell but who chooses not to, you are by definition either a sadist or a lunatic.

Obviously the vast majority of Calvinists are not like this. Maybe, for all I know, none of them are like this. They are not like this, because they love their family and friends, and they actually worship a god who they believe loves them and is loving. And so, if they are anything more than purely notional Calvinists, they are forced to live with absolutely massive cognitive dissonance. They are kind and good and loving, and they believe that God is kind and good and loving, and yet the doctrines they ostensibly assent to are not.

And so, my contention is that very, very few people who call themselves Calvinists really are Calvinists - hard core, five point TULIP Calvinists. And those who are, are either to be pitied or feared - pitied because their lives must be hellish, and feared because if they truly believe in such a doctrine of devils, what is there to stop them behaving like devils themselves?

Cheers

Johnny

#71

I would say that you’ve said something pretty extreme, Johnny - and I agree with almost every word!! Really.

#72

Yes, it does sound extreme, Dave. And I don’t think I would have had the courage to post such a comment had not our very own Tom Talbott said pretty much the same thing, albeit more graciously than a hothead like me:

" … the Reformed doctrine of predestination is an expression of human rebelliousness. Only a person who fails to love his neighbor as himself could possibly believe, on the basis of an alleged revelation or on any other basis, that this doctrine is in fact true."

That’s what the man himself says :slight_smile: .

#73

Like I said, I agree - it has to be said strongly because the issue is really important.
Well done.

#74

Good to see your face (well, that funny avatar picture at any rate :laughing: ), back on the forums, Johnny!

It was the doctrine of predestination that really sent me into a spiritual down-slide nearly a decade ago. It is a very scary, painful idea, and I still fear the “what if’s” when I question its validity. What if this god is right? The entire notion goes against my image of the Lord in every shape and form, but “what if” still creeps back into my brain. For that reason, I often feel that I alternate between two gods – a powerful tyrant, watching and waiting to throw me and many I love and many I’ve never even met into eternal torment. The other God, my Heavenly Daddy, weeps that I could even question His infinite goodness, for by merely dwelling on thoughts of a scary god, it becomes evident that I do not yet fully accept my place as the rightful daughter of a Heavenly Daddy.

It’s hard to convince a prodigal daughter that she’s worthy back home.

#75

Also, I think it’s important to recognize that, by believing in an eternally good God, we acknowledge that any of His decisions must by nature be good, as well. So even if God *did *govern eternity by predestination and all its associated doctrines, then He is – by very definition – perfect, nonetheless. No matter how atrocious something appears to our human minds, God’s understanding has reached infinitely higher realms, and we will understand His divine logic when the time comes.

I think this is how many hard-core Calvinist have come to justify a doctrine which strikes any rational man as contrary to God’s innermost being. We will understand this later, they think and thereby can go on serving the same good God we serve without giving doctrine much more thought. They feel they have interpreted the Bible right, and now they must just make the best of things.

I think the greatest danger lies in the hearts of those who use extremist TULIP principles to accomplish their own wicked agenda, reveling in the image of a god who hand-selects his children for roasting. In short, what unsettles me most is when people accept Calvinism with no inner qualms. Such an attitude indicates a much deeper hardness of heart than merely religious misunderstanding.

#76

Thanks Dave. I feel very, very strongly about this - and when I hear a testimony like Kate’s, a testimony of the fear that the wicked doctrine of predestination brings to good people, I know I’m right to feel that way.

And Kate, don’t fret. You’re not, and never can be, unworthy of the love of our wonderful God. Consider these words of the legendary Tom Talbott, one of the two ‘marquee names’ of this forum (although I doubt he’ll thank me for calling him legendary :smiley:): 'I will not worship [the God of Calvinism], and if such a God can send me to hell for not so worshipping him, then to hell I will go ."

Strong words to refute in the strongest possible terms a nonsensical doctrine.

Much love to you both

J

#77

I do not fret – and neither should you. We’re both siblings of the same Great King! :smiley:

If the God of Calvinism is, somehow (although incomprehensibly so) the all-loving Lord I’ve come to worship, then somehow – in a way we cannot fathom – He is perfect and worthy of all praise. If this is the case, there is surely some divine spark of understanding that we’re missing.

However, I figure playing “Calvinist advocate” here is paradoxical – God is perfect in whatever He wills, but the Bible clearly states that “[The Lord] does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent” (2 Peter 3:9). Therefore, debating and defending the goodness of a god who wants his children in hell is completely unbiblical in the first place.

And thank goodness for that!

#78

Corpselight, Not harsh at all. And I appreciate the criticism anyway. I think Johnny said it with much more eloquence than I did:

Nevertheless James, you should expect a proxy biff from Dick next time you see him :laughing:

Dick, yes, I know you weren’t referring to the anabaptist anarchists :slight_smile:

Also, I’ll just leave this here. We had our nutters, but Schaap is something else.

#79

I watched the first minute of the two minute video… just couldn’t stand to watch the whole thing :laughing:

If he wants to do that in the privacy of his own home, that’s fine, but please, not in public for all the world to see! :laughing:

#80

I polished up the handle of the big front door :laughing: