The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Malachi 4:3 doesn't that promote annihilation


#1

sorry if this is in the wrong forum but I’m new here

3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

I believe in UR but this verse is tricky :question:


Annihilation theory...verses answered
#2

1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.

In context this passage is simply an encouragement to live righteously. When the fire of judgment comes, the righteous will rejoice, but the wicked will see their lives go up in smoke, come to realize that everything they’ve invested their lives in is worthless, not lasting. And the righteous will ultimately be proven to be right, the wise ones who built their lives upon the rock, and did not suffer destruction.

Metaphorical language should be interpreted metaphorically, not literally.

Blessings,
Sherman

P.S. I noticed that this was your first post. Welcome, and I look forward to getting to know you.


#3

The following is from another website. A UR response to some verses of Scripture posted by an annihilationist:

To prove that you need at least one Bible verse where anyone is not just annihilated but annihilated forever (or the equivalent). Since no such Scripture exists in the 66 books of God, endless annihilation is not according to God’s Word.

None of the verses you listed support your viewpoint:

Nothing in Gen.3:22 says Adam (or anyone else) will get endless annihilation.

To the contrary all will get life, justification & righteousness:

Rom.5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

The bodies of the people of Sodom were made “ashes” & destroyed. Not their souls and spirits.

Also their bodies (“ashes”) will be resurrected back to life. So clearly they have not been endlessly annihilated.

Additionally, verse 9 says:

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

Where the Greek word for “punished” can mean correction for the good of the offender.

Nothing in 2 Pet.2:5-6 says Love Omnipotent will administer endless annihilation to any person. Next:

By quoting this Scripture you haven’t even begun to prove that Love Almighty will endlessly annihilate anyone.

Scripture shows that destruction can be reversed:

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. (Psa. 90:3)

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” (Jn.2:19)

Scripture shows that destruction can be a good thing:

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord (1 Cor.5:5)

These are the words of a man, Eliphaz the Temanite, speaking to Job. They say nothing about endless annihilation. Sodom did perish & was consumed by fire from God, yet will be resurrected & restored (Ezek.16:48,53,55). They were not annihilated forever.

The - way - of the ungodly shall perish. Their “way” is sin. When sin perishes from the universe, all will be saved.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

That speaks of men dieing in their sins. It says nothing of what happens in the afterlife.

Everyone sins: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom.3:23)

Do all souls, then, die? As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins (Eph.2:1).

The context of Exekiel 18 is speaking of death under the law, e.g. stoning for certain sins. It says nothing about afterlife punishment or final destiny.

The word “perish” in this context refers to physical bodily death in this lifetime, & says nothing about the fate of souls in the afterlife:

1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4“Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

Under the law certain offenses were “worthy of death”, not endless annihilation.

This verse does not say anyone will be annihilated forever. Neither does it say anyone will never do the will of God.

Eventually all will get life, justification & righteousness:

Rom.5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Those who reject Christ in this life & the afterlife will go to “hell” till they repent & are saved.

12 Now these, as irrational animals, born naturally for capture and corruption, calumniating that in which they are ignorant in their corruption, also shall be corrupted (CLV)

Verse 9 says:

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

Where the Greek word for “punished” can mean correction for the good of the offender.

Nothing in 2 Pet.2:12 says Love Omnipotent will administer endless annihilation to any person. Next:

The scriptures never speak of eternal or endless death. In fact death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

If something so horrific as endless death or annihilation were meant, God had words He could have used to express it, but didn’t. Such as “endless”, “no end”, “eternal”(aidios).
Since He never chose to use such words re the final destiny of any unbeliever, He didn’t teach endless annihilation or torments.

For the outcome of those things is death. (Rom.6:21b, NASB)
Those things result in death! (Rom.6:21b, NIV)

Even though you experienced the end (or result or outcome) spoken of as death in Romans 6:21, that result for you did not cause you to be endlessly annihilated, did it? And neither
will it for anyone else. For all will eventually be saved:

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Souls are not made of “ashes”. So the reference to “ashes” tells us nothing about the fate of souls in the afterlife. The passage speaks of what will be on a day, “the day” (v.1), not for eternity.

Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were “burned up” but not annihilated out of existence forever.

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. (Mal.1:11)

“…it doesn’t say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either.”

“The last enemy that shall be abolished is death” (vs. 26).

Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All “in” all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

Pharoah flourished until God destroyed him. He will be resurrected, so is not destroyed for ever. Likewise with Sodom & the world in Noah’s day.

Psa.92:7 says the wicked will be destroyed AD(5704)AD(5703), “until” the “future”. Your translation didn’t even translate the word AD[5704]. It just left that word out, thereby changing the word of God. Shame!

7 The wicked bud like herbage, And all contrivers of lawlessness blossom, But only that they be exterminated until the future, (Psa.92:7, CLV)
studybible.info/CLV/Psalms 92

Psa.92:7 speaks of the wicked being destroyed, i.e. killed, put to death, “until” the “future”. Not “until” “forever”, which sounds like nonsense. Since all will be resurrected, we know from the Scriptures that they will not be dead “forever”.

Compare Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
For the Lord will NOT reject forever. Although he causes grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve ANYONE.

The same word for destroy in Mt.10:28 is used of the lost that Jesus said He is seeking to find. It is also used of the lost coin & sheep that were found & the prodigal son who was
later saved. Therefore the use of the Greek word in question in connection to a person does not, in and of itself, prove such to be endlessly lost.

In the Old Testament God made a man like a beast for 7 years until He restored him to sanity. God is able to destroy the soul (Mt.10:28) of a man in many ways, such as in the sense of bring it to ruin for the good of the sinner. He is able to destroy the flesh nature of man, the old man, the soul of the old Adam, that he be reborn in Christ a new creature, a
new creation. That destruction could be an extremely painful experience for a long period of time in those who are especially hardened.

“The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24…of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28;
…”(Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

As to the meaning of the word “destroy”, Websters’ first definition is “ruin” and second definition is to “put out of existence”: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

For a mortal body to be ruined or destroyed in Gehenna it evidently involves dieing & being changed in its form, such as by being burnt to ashes & or smoke, etc. It still exists & is not annihilated since matter cannot be annihilated, only changed in its form. Not, at least, until God creates a new universe.

What does it mean that God “can” ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

If Satan & demons are there in the LOF to possess people, just casting them into the LOF could result in people being psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we
cannot even imagine. I’m sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Otherwise why would the scriptures speaks of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostasized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

A related matter to the understanding of Mt.10:28 is the use of the same Greek words for “soul” and “destroy” a few verses later in the context of the same chapter 10 of Matthew:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it.

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

By speaking of “destroying” our own “soul” [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul
earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from “hell” (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you
won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.

That is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after that passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6).
I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the “corpses” referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

wasillabible.org/sermon-blog/isa … ion-part-3

(3) I wonder how “corpses” (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could “corpses” survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still “corpses” of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

“It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis’ mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, “The Consuming Fire.” The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God’s eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins.”

theologicalscribbles.blogspot.ca … devil.html

  1. In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life “in Christ” & God will be “all in all” (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

2 Thess.1:9 has Strongs #3639, olethron:

“…ólethros (“ruination”) however does not imply “extinction” (annihilation).”

biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

In 1 Cor.5:4-5 one is given to Satan for destruction[3639] of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. In 1 Tim.6:9 olethros is often translated “ruin”.

Other translations of 2 Thess.1:9:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice – destruction age-during – from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

Regarding the mistranslation “eternal”: “166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn (“an age, having a particular character and quality”) – properly, “age-like” (“like-an-age”), i.e. an “age-characteristic” (the quality describing a particular age);…” biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

Destruction can be a good thing:

… deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)

“Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading.” Continued at:

afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/02/2 … od-part-5/

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=213

In context David is praying for deliverance from his enemies - in this mortal life - on earth. The verse says nothing about the afterlife or final destiny. All those who “perish” from this mortal life in this world will rise again. They have not been endlessly annihilated.

David is wishing for the death of his enemies. Compare Jesus’ command to “love your enemies”.

“The last enemy that shall be abolished is death” (vs. 26).

Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All “in” all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).

The devil is a spirit being so can’t be turned into “ashes” & Ezek.28:18 is speaking of one (not Satan) who has already been turned to “ashes”:

By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. (NASB)

Satan, OTOH, is not now “ashes” nor has he been (nor ever will be) endlessly annihilated.

and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Col.1:20)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
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Responding to a Calvinist