The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage

Theology General Theology
#41

Hi Cindy
I share your hypothesis.
I will tell you my experience of divorce.
I have experience of one within my own family. My sister was being regularly beaten by her first husband (who had had 2 previous marriages). When she finally decided to leave I immediately hired a removal van and, with no little risk, helped her ‘escape’ with some furniture and 4 children in tow. In these sorts of cases I believe that the state and churches should commend and support the woman’s actions in divorce. Out of my family, my wife and I were the only ones who attended my sisters second wedding (because I was not prepared to judge her as to whether she was the cause of the divorce of her second husband).

Secondly, I know three close work-mates. In two cases they (the men) divorced having succumbed to the temptation of another woman. Now, I cannot pretend to know what was going on in their marriages but I know that in both cases one child from each family subsequently committed suicide (the cases are entirely unrelated). In the third case (my closest friend) he, likewise, found the grass greener on the other side and although I did my utmost to persuade him otherwise he divorced. All I can say is that he is in an awful mess two years on and though he will not talk about it I am absolutely convinced that he bitterly regrets his affair and divorce. His children are also a mess.

Earlier in thread, I believe that I was being judged for saying that I believe (in the latter cases) the state should have stricter divorce laws and that society was healthier when their was a social stigma surrounding such divorces. I stand by my statements but, in clarification, I believe that a social stigma to the divorce process itself may be helpful whilst I IN NO WAY believe in a social stigma towards any who have, some time in the past, divorced.
To clarify: we should do everything we can to help prevent divorce on a “I’ve fallen out of love with this partner” basis (which covers the majority of divorces in this country). Whilst we should do our utmost to support innocent victims of abuse who should be helped to divorce a.s.a.p. (there but for the grace of God go any of us).

Finally, when I hear (earlier in the thread) that a couple who divorced were both extremely “loving and caring people”, then all I can infer is that the writer does not have the faintest idea what love or care means or that couple (who had children) would not have divorced.
I see the brutal life-long damage that divorce does to children and I witness it on a daily basis.

#42

It facinates me how our various individual personal contexts act as filters through which we understand/misunderstand one another and how challenging it is to get past that filter and really understand what another is saying. This is especially true in regards to such emotionally charged topics as divorce. Pilgrim, in his context, is seeking to strengthen marriages, particularly marriages with children, through strengthening civil law. And I fully agree with him that such is the role of civil authority; it’s just from my context I don’t have much faith in civil authorities to do a very good job at it, but then we have different civil authorities. I on the other hand, having experienced the negative side of the legalism rampant in many American churches, am seeking to strengthen marriages through helping people see that marriage is under civil authority, not ecclesial authority, and hoping to inspire American Christians/churches to be less judgmental towards divorcees and seek healing and restoration for them. I believe this can best be accomplished through dismanteling the traditional doctrine, showing where it doesn’t line up with scripture, and presenting a doctrine that better reflects the attitude and teachings of Jesus.

In short I believe the principles that are set forth in scripture are:

  1. God desires for people to have lasting healthy relationships strengthened by the covenant of marriage as a foundation for families raising children. The purposes of marriage are a) to meet the psychological needs of acceptance, love, belonging, and sexual intimacy that are common to people, and b) to establish a healthy environment to meet the needs/desires to procreate.
  2. Marriage is a legal covenant and is under Civil Authority. Thus we should seed to develop and administer laws that mitigate the wickedness of people, protect the weak (in most cultures this means particularly women and children) strengthen marriages, and mitigate divorce.
  3. Marriage being an institution ordained by God implies that the Church should be active in supporting healthy relationships and strengthening marriages, and seeking to do what they can to mitigate divorce especially amongst themselves.
#43

Hi Pilgrim,

Previously you mentioned how you didn’t understand how two “loving and caring” people could have their marriage end in divorce, especially if there were children involved. You also mentioned earlier how you didn’t understand how the church seeking to make marriages last could negatively effect marriages. Both are found in my parents divorce. Frankly, the legalism and judgmental-ism that was rampant in the church of my youth set up my parents for significant problems. The church of my youth, though basically good and loving people, embraced the traditional doctrine of MDR with a passion and from a legalistic perspective. The result was that anyone who suffered divorce, whether there fault or not, was ostracized, especially if they had remarried. Couples, one or both of whom had been divorced, were not accepted members of the church. And in order to get right with God and the church they were actually expected to divorce and either remarry their former spouses or remain single. I know, it doesn’t make much sense, but there are many traditional religious beliefs that don’t make sense.

This resulted in not only many people being excluded from the church, but judgmental-ism also sets up people to fail in the same area that they are judgmental towards other people, I believe. It also created an atmosphere where if someone or a couple was having trouble, the last place they would want that known was among their fellow church members. They would be looked down on and excluded like they had AIDS. These factors and others created and atmosphere that is toxic for relationships and marriages, especially those who are passionate adherents to it, which my parents were. The church of my youth had some significant problems, of which this is only one.

Though they divorced after some 20 years of marriage, both my parents remarried. And their 2nd marriages last to this day, 25 or so years later. And they both still love and care for one another, wanting the best for each other though they’ve moved on with their lives. And both, thankfully, have been freed from much of the judgmental-ism and legalism of the church I was raised in, both still loving God and people and attending other fellowships now.

And over the years, I don’t know how many people I have known that have been adversely effected by the legalism and judgmental-ism connected with the issue of MDR in American churches. It’s very sad. I see the issue as being two-fold, both doctrinal and attitudinal. On the doctrinal side, the church really believed that marriage was indissoluble, unbreakable, not that marriages shouldn’t be broken, but that they CANNOT be broken. Of course, this is not only unrealistic and delusional, it is unscriptural. Jesus said, “What God has joined together 'let not” man tear apart." He did not say, “cannot tear apart”. Thus even marriages joined together by God run the risk of being torn apart by man! A slight difference that makes a world of difference in how we view and treat marriages!

#44

Here’s a question for everyone. What does “joined together by God” mean?

I’ve heard various thoughts on it, but I think it means relationships that are:

  1. not forbidden by God in scripture, like a man marrying a woman and her daughter, or a woman marrying a man still legally married to another woman. And
  2. solemnized by a covenant of marriage, usually a covenant recognized by civil authority.

What think ye?

#45

I know I haven’t been here long but thought I would weigh in if no one minds. I have appreciated many things in different forum threads by both Sherman and Pilgrim. It seems you both have a great heart towards things.

Pilgrim, I agree with you. Divorce is terrible. Divorce is tragic. Divorce is hardest on children.
Sherman, I find your studies to be very interesting and agree with you on many (if not all) of your conclusions.

In the spirit of full disclosure I am divorced. In my personal experience, I have just drawn a target on myself in front of however many members are on this site. Why? Because “christians” like to eat divorcees for breakfast, as a rule from my personal experience. Without even knowing the facts about abuse or adultery or anything really, judgment flows out like the oil should.

My children have suffered and do suffer terribly in a way I cannot begin to fully comprehend… It breaks my heart every time I hold them, every time I wipe their tears away, every week when we have to say goodbye, even for the half week we are apart. Oh, Pilgrim, I know too well what you are driving at, I REALLY do.

I also know this like only a person who has gone through this can; divorce is not a piece of paper. Divorced is not a civil marital status. Divorced is truly at the end of the conversation a state of being in a relationship. Many say “there is always the possibility of reconciliation”. Yes there is… until there isn’t. I tend to think that some people never get down to it with themselves about their divorce, no judgment here, it isn’t pleasant. There are a whole lot of interesting details to be argued about by those that are spiritually “better” than me regarding my personal experience but what Sherman says is dead on. It comes down to hardness of heart. No matter what has transpired on either side in any type of relationship when it breaks down, when it dies, when it grows cold, it is due to hardness of heart, an inability or unwillingness to forgive to the uttermost. Again, no judgment to those of you out there reading this who have been pushed and then pulled back through the meat grinder. I understand where you are. For me the details brought me to a place that within myself I could no longer simply forgive and look past it all, I lacked the desire after awhile as well. I know, “with God, all things are possible”, but to those of you who have no experience with divorce, have you in your own life always been able to appropriate all of that power? What about the drunk driver that kills your HS senior? What about the the pedophile who devastates your daughter? What about the fascist that slaughters millions, or thousands, or hundreds, or dozens? It is one very true thing to say, it is another experience altogether to live it out perfectly in every situation.

Divorce is divorce, with a piece of paper or not. My children suffered the consequences of divorce long before their mother and I were actually legally divorced. Broken relationships hurt children not divorce documents.

Marriage is 2 people desiring to share life with each other to some varying degree determined by culture, society, family, religion, and most importantly personal intent. It should last a lifetime, and I am confident it would if not for sin, like so many things. Unfortunately, as with all things that sin touches it does not always turn out the way it should.

Pilgrim, I feel your heart breaking with mine for all of these children. Sherman I feel your heart aching for all of these castoffs. God bless you both for your heart!

To you children of divorce (at any age) may God warmly comfort you. To you who are divorced (for however many years) may God warmly comfort you.

Thanks be to Him who is truly the ultimate reconciler, the ultimate forgiver, the ultimate lover of our souls, without Him we would all be so lost.

Thanks all for letting me share.

#46

Just to add my two penneth. Do children ever long for divorce? Yes. I was one of them.

My mother divorced my father when I was 12 years old. I had begged her from about age 7 to leave him. He was a physically abusive man, but worse than that was the psychological abuse. It affected me well into my 20s, simply having lived with him at all. My school reports noted a dramatic, positive change in my behaviour upon my ceasing to dwell with him. That divorce was good for this child. To this day if I hear his voice, this strong, confident woman, shrivels inside and becomes quiet and insecure.

Despite this, I still hate divorce. It is hard and horrible. And many do embark on it lightly, with little concern for the children or indeed their vows. But that isn’t always the case and sometimes, in this fallen world of ours, it is the best outcome.

I don’t like it. But then again, I don’t like amputations but at times they are necessary to preserve the body, else the gangrene will kill off the whole.

#47

I agree 100% Jael Sister. My partner in life now had the exact same experience with her father only, her mother did not divorce because she would have been ostracized, and isolated from her family and her “church family”. The scars are very evident, but God is GOOD! We are helping each other day by day out of real love for each other and for God to work through all the junk that accumulates throughout life.

#48

Sanctified and Jaelsister:
I want to thank you immensely for what you have posted. I also want you to know that I wish you could know the ‘real me’ as well as the poster on the internet. All I can say is, despite what I believe regarding divorce (as previously posted), I am frequently paying the cost for NOT judging those who others seem very ready to judge. I wasn’t going to post this but, for example, when I said that I would attend my sisters second marriage (and no other members of my family would), my other sister said that I was never to set foot in her house again if I went. I still went because I hate judgement of individuals in that way. I do not believe any human can judge another unless they have walked in their sandals. All I know is that these people have endured suffering.
I am sure that I could learn a lot from both of you.
God bless.

P.S.
Sanctified:

I don’t doubt what you have written for one minute so I am not questioning it at all. What I wonder is how this relates to UR? Is it that God will grant us that capacity in the next life?

#49

Pilgrim,

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question, my individual beliefs about sanctification run a bit askew from most everyone I talk to and on top of that I don’t have it all completely figured out.

What I do feel confident in is that (without getting into a LONG theological conversation) is that when I enter into the realization of my personal justification wrought by the work of Christ, when I actively enter into the reconciled relationship I have with God He sanctifies me. I am made a new creation, that is, in my spirit. I am hidden in him, I am seated with him in the heavens. I am one with him as he is one with the father (another theological conversation), that is, again, in my spirit.

Unfortunately, my spirit for a brief mist more must endure the flesh, this deteriorating “tent” of imperfection and corruptibility. The power of sin (another theo talk, is it an entity, a personification, or other thatPaul references in Romans.) is in my physical body, perhaps at the very core in my DNA, or perhaps buried deep in my psyche. It wages war against the new creation spirit/heart that I have. Somehow (here’s the part I cant quite articulate yet) even though the power of God is present in me, sometimes the power of sin gets the better of the war and my mortal body sins. Paul points out in Romans that is not me sinning, that is sin in my flesh sinning.

Justification, I believe, happened one time at the cross by the satisfactory sacrifice of the Lamb to appease the righteousness of God for all. Sanctification, I believe, is what I mentioned above when we enter into active relationship with God and He consecrates us to himself, this happens by our choice, He doesn’t force us. For some that may come MUCH later than others (another conversation, why does a measure of faith large enough to believe manifest in some sooner than others with the exact same set of circumstances?). One day Glorification, I believe, will happen when when my corrupted tent will be replaced with something we have yet to experience, an incorruptible tent. Then we shall be free from this war that wages on and we will never falter in doing right even as the Son never falters. It isn’t that I do not believe we have the capacity and also even the desire here and now, it is that we are obstructed and thwarted by this presence that we have lived with so long that we confuse it with ourselves and give way to it as though we were making the decision. I think to this point Paul’s comments about “taking every thought captive” and “I buffet my body” and “who will deliver me from this body of DEATH” are right on the mark. We can, do, and will have victory, even often but there will be this constant struggle.

My apologies for the 3 terms justification, sanctification, glorification, it is a fall back on the vernacular that I was raised with in fundy land. I really try to take the mystery out of theology speak when I converse with people. I am even more comfortable with made right with God, made one with God, made righteous as God in all parts of my being.

Thanks again for conversation and questions, I am not sure what all of your experiences are but the last few conversations have been a real blessing. To be able to converse intelligently, lovingly, and and with common purpose is so refreshing. Actually refreshing is likely not the right word as I do not believe I have ever really experienced this, it has always been one group trying to persuade another that they are right. So I guess this is just “fresh” :smiley: Anyway, THANKS!

#50

Pilgrim, I always learn much from your posts. Especially the ones I don’t agree with :wink:
You give me new slants to consider things by. I like that. It’s what we are here for- to sharpen each other.

Just so you’re clear, I wasn’t offended by anything you said. Just adding an additional perspective. I sympathise with your views. Particularly as a midwife, I see all the broken families, children giving birth to children, on a daily basis.

It’s hard to say this without sounding patronising. But I was so proud of what you said about attending your sister’s wedding. I’d just been bemoaning to my mother earlier at how few men had the integrity and courage of their convictions; to stand up and do what’s right, even when it’s difficult, thankless and at personal cost. I wish we could all know each other too :slight_smile:

#51

I entitled my book “God Is A Divorce’ Too” based on Jer. 3:8 where God says that He wrote Israel a bill of divorce and sent her packing because of her perpetual and increasing adultery. My hope wat that 1) it would be an eye-catcher, 2) it would comfort divorce’es to know that God understands that pain and devestation of divorce, and 3) to be an emotional jab at the traditional doctrine and the judgmentalism that flows out of it. And I just kinda like being controversial, saying things that make people stop and think. I’ve found that it succeeded on all accounts, though it was a little too disturbing for some, and the more traditional thought I was somehow speaking evil of God even though it’s a biblical analogy.

Also Pilgrim, previously you asked how the concept of divorce relates to UR. In regards to that I find the Jer. 3 passage to be very encouraging. In this passage the Lord promises to even bring reembrace Israel if she repents after having been divorced and taken off into captivity. The Lord says:

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will not be angry forever.
Only acknowledge your guilt—
you have rebelled against the LORD your God,
you have scattered your favors to foreign gods
under every spreading tree,
and have not obeyed me,’”
declares the LORD.

What a wonderful promise. To me it is a wonderful picture of God’s enduring faithfulness - that though we sell ourselves to other gods, His arms are always open and ready to recieve us back. Could this be a picture of what happens to people in the afterlife, after having been taken completely off into captivity? I think so.

I was raised in a denomination that had little or no assurance of salvation. Being saved was very dependant upon how good a person lived, if one took all the right steps to salvation and then remained faithful. Many years ago though, long before I came to embrace UR, I came to believe and trust that my salvation rested wholly in the goodness, faithfulness, love, and mercy of God. I came to believe and trust that all my sins had been forgiven, even sins that I had not committed yet, sins that I repented of and even the many sins that I would not repent of until I stood before the Lord in judgment, sins that I recognized and the untold number of sins that I didn’t even know were sins until He reveals them to me. I came to realize that I did not save myself, I did not choose to have faith but it was given to me, developed in me. And if I didn’t save myself then I certainly couldn’t expect to keep myself saved. It was very liberating to recognize that salvation rested fully in the Lord.

#52

Sanctification:
I cannot hear enough about justification, sanctification and glorification so I thank you for the time you have given to my question and the thoughts you have provoked. What a wonderful future we have thanks to God.

Jaelsister. You are far too gracious. My mother was a district midwife (she died a year ago) and, amongst many other things, was instrumental in getting ‘running water’ to a squatters camp where her work was called for. She was a fierce lady when she needed to be and likewise I see a similar strength in you so it comes as no surprise to hear that you to are a midwife. May God bless, bless, and bless your amazing ministry.
Like you, I learn the most from those with whom I disagree.
For me, I cross swords and then take time to mull over and masticate the others POV. It may be days, weeks or even months before a seed that has been sown in my mind/spirit comes to fruition.
I do not find these forums easy but I believe they can be beneficial - like one distasteful drug from a big medicine chest.

Sherman
Please forgive this slight derailment. I’m reading your posts with great interest & thanks for Jer 3.

#53

Hey Pilgrim, it’s no derailment at all. I think that it is always good to couch theological discussions in real-life context, so that we can be not only heavenly minded but also have our feet on the ground. And thanks for sharing the personal information.

Sanctification and JaelSister, thanks for sharing.

#54

I’ve been meaning to chime in here for awhile now, but just hadn’t got a chance to get around to it (I’m a prolific writer [or in this case, typer], and places to share my thoughts keep popping up elsewhere online or even on the forum here… so many bases to cover :laughing:)

Thanks for bringing all of this up, Sherman, as everything I’ve read here has been very thought-provoking.

I’ve noticed that in coming to question the tradition of everlasting punishment/separation, I am not so afraid to question other traditions as well, including traditions concerning marriage.

And this is very relevant issue for me at the moment, as I’m engaged to be married, and will probably be tying the knot sometime in December.

Both my fiancee, Kaylyn, and I come from divorce. Her father left when she was a child, and her parents divorced soon after, and my mom left my dad when I was 19.

Kaylyn can’t remember much of what it was like, as she was so young, she just remembers a lot of fighting, and she feels the pain of not having had a father growing up, and still struggles with anger towards him… they spend time together only on rare occasions, and aren’t very close… hopefully that will change…

In my case, being older when my parents split, I can remember it well, as it was only ten years ago… my parents fought alot over the years, but in the last couple years it was just… its like there was a coldness between them…
After my dad had a mild heart attack, which doctors said wasn’t nearly as bad as it could have been, my dad decided to quit working, and stayed at home and expected my mom, and us, to take care of him… my dad was turning into this needy, vindictive couch-potato, and it was just… well, sad. :frowning: I hated seeing him like that… it’s hard having a father that you don’t feel you can look up to…
My mom put up with a lot from my dad over the years (I could go into detail, but I don’t want to dishonor my dad, he’s doing better now, which I’ll share more about later here) and I think she just got to the point when she couldn’t take it anymore… and she felt that not only was he dragging her down, but also my sister and I down, and even himself too…

So she felt the only thing she could do, after having tried everything, after having tried to work things out, after 25 years of marriage, was to leave him…

It was a difficult experience. I can still remember it vividly… I don’t have time now to tell the whole story, but lets just say that it was a big change for all of us. At first it was really scary, and surreal… it happened soon after I had walked away from the Christian faith and God, having explored it and tried to have a relationship with God in my last couple years of high school, but becoming disillusioned, I gave up on it… and my parents splitting up only disillusioned me more…

I was angry with my dad more than my mom actually during all of this, and for a couple years after that I think, angry for how he’d basically driven my mom to leave, and for how he made me feel pathetic knowing that he, my father, at the time, was so, well, pathetic :frowning:

So it was a difficult time for me, and I’m sure it was for my sister too… but we had both sided with my mom, and actually on some level wanted the split to happen… so in that I can relate to Jael…

Eventually my dad reconciled with my sister and I after a few years, and though we don’t see him much, we’re on good terms with him, and he and my mom, though by no means friends, are still civil with each other…

My mom and my sister and I live together in a trailer, and my dad lives on the coast with his now fiancee, and we all seem to be doing better for it, even if there is a certain amount of sadness to it, at least to me…

My mom takes my sister and I down there to visit with him sometimes… we try to see him around Father’s Day, which is coming up soon…

Though my dad isn’t perfect by any means, I don’t see him as pathetic anymore. Flawed and fallible yes, but not pathetic.
He seems to be doing better, seems to be more active and engaged in life, and perhaps a little more humble.
So perhaps in some sense, my mom leaving him was good for him in the long run, which was one of the reasons why she said she left him, because she said it would be a good wake up call for him. And it was.

And it drove my sister and I to get jobs and become more engaged in life ourselves, where before we had little motivation for it, being around my dad… though both my sister’s journey and mine have been far from smooth sailing. :neutral_face:

It’s a difficult, painful, sad thing… but I wonder if sometimes it’s necessary, like war is sometimes necessary… :neutral_face:

With this background and with Kaylyn’s background, one wonders if we would share the same fate as our parents before us in our marriage… but it leaves us with the knowledge that what we are getting into is far from easy, and with determination to do whatever we can to stay together and keep our relationship strong and alive…

And we both know that we will need God’s help to do this… He’s the one who brought us together, and the only one who can keep us together… so being committed and staying close to your mate, I’m thinking, is both hard work and even more, grace… so I will pray for strength and for grace for both Kaylyn and I, and I would appreciate all of your prayers as well. :slight_smile:

Amy, thank you for sharing your sister’s story… that must have been really hard for her… :neutral_face: My own sister has been in some bad relationships as well (though maybe not so bad as that), so I can relate to how that must have made you feel…
I don’t think my sister has ever been in any overtly abusive relationships, but if she was, you could be sure that I would have a strong urge to take a bat to the guy. :neutral_face:

But it’s a testament to your sister’s character that she didn’t hate him for how he was treating her, and even though he deserved that, and still cared for him on some level.
In that she showed God’s heart towards broken and messed up people, and it’s a beautiful thing. It is tragic that he ended his life, but we have the hope that God will show him mercy, cast out his darkness, and heal his brokenness…

I’m glad to hear that your sister is doing better now. She deserves some rest and some peace after going through all of that.

Blessings to you, and to your sister as well :slight_smile:

And Sanctified, thank you for being so brave as to share your story. That you care about the pain the divorce has caused your children is something beautiful and I think they will see that more clearly in the future as they get older, and though they will likely feel the same sadness I’ve felt, still knowing that you love them, I believe, will make a difference and comfort them in their sadness.

And I appreciate your thoughts on justification, sanctification, and glorification as well. What you have to say makes a lot of sense to me. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you bro, and may God’s grace be upon you and your children, and on your ex-wife as well.

May God be gracious to all of us, because we all need His help in loving one another…

Thank you again Sherman for bringing up this important subject, and thank you all for sharing from your heart.

One of the greatest parts of UR to me is the hope that one day all of the broken, frayed or even severed relationships between people will somehow be mended and made right, that not only will everyone be reconciled with God, but we will all be reconciled with one another… it’s a beautiful hope. It seems impossible of course…
We look around us at all of the war and fighting and the abuse and hurt, at people who once loved one another now strangers to each other, at children crying, at the cries within us, for an end to the war within us and to be free from all the brokenness and the mess inside of each and every one of us, and it is hard to believe that it is possible, that so many wrongs could be made right, that so many wounds could be healed… but with God all things are possible, as Jesus said, and that is a hope worth holding onto… :slight_smile:

Blessings to you all, and peace

Matt

#55

@Matt: I’m on my laptop and haven’t mastered the art of cutting and pasting on a touchpad, but what you said about having the hope that all would be made right and all relationships be restored is so reflective of what I hope Heaven is too…I don’t care about streets of gold. I don’t care about having a mansion, (not that I really believe these should be taken literally anyway), but even if they were literal, I just don’t care about that kindof thing. I want PEOPLE to be happy, whole and in harmony with God and each other…ALL PEOPLE…There is NOTHING I’d rather have. There is nothing that could possibly buy me off and make me feel satisfied other than that either. Sass.

#56

In discussing this topic one of the challenges that I commonly run into is people misinterpreting what I say/write and thinking that I am somehow affirming that it should be able to come and go out of marriages just as we desire. I don’t understand how people get this impression. Maybe it is because in disagreeing with the traditional doctrine they assume I don’t value marriage or think that we should strive for healthy lasting marraiges.

For example, no matter how careful I am in explaining that the traditional doctrine of indissolubility is bogus and that the truth is that marriage is very breakable, they think I’m somehow saying that marriages should be broken or that we should not care if marriages are broken or that marriages should be broken for any reason and it just doesn’t matter if marriages are broken. When in reality I believe that recognizing marriage is breakable will help us think more correctly of our marriages and not take them for granted and help people, especially Christians, have healthy and lasting relationships/marriages.

Which does one protect with more care and effort, a priceless solid gold statue or a priceless China vase? In like manner, the more we realize just how fragile our relationships and marriages are the more we will seek to protect them and the better decisions we can make in that regard.

I also point out that marriage is not a “sacrament”, but is a covenant; and it is not a “divine covenant”, but is a “human covenant”. In pointing this out people somehow jump to the errant conclusion that I do not think whether marriages last or don’t matters to God. And yet this is fartherest from my mind. I believe that God ordained marriages as the healthiest means of fulfilling personal and social needs, as a means of procreation, and as a foundation for society as a whole. Healthy marriages and families result in healthy communities and nations. Unhealthy families result in the destruction of communities and nations. But marriage is not a “sacrament”. It is not something only for Christians. It is not a “means of grace”, unless of course you are marrying a Grace :slight_smile:! Marriage is a covenant, an agreement of two individuals to live together for mutual benefit. And covenants have expectations within them. Love might be unconditional, but relationship is not! For relationships to be healthy and lasting there must be strong personal boundaries and clear and realistic expectations.

Well, anyhow, I just throw this out there for discussion. Any thoughts? Also, does anyone have any comments or questions regarding any other scriptures on this topic?

#57

Hey Sherman,

Something I notice happens to me sometimes if I’m reading something that makes me anxious . . . maybe, for example, I feel that someone is about to say something inexcusable (in my eyes). The first bit of verbiage I see could be taken in a couple of ways, and of course I’m predisposed to take it in the worst way possible. After that maybe I just skim because I “know” this is going to make me angry and I really don’t want to hear it.

Now I know full well that this is irrational (and usually I don’t do it), but sometimes I can’t seem to help it. Later, I come back and read over it more carefully so I can respond if necessary, and I ALWAYS find that I’ve misinterpreted. I try to remember to read precisely, to make sure I understand to the best of my ability what the person wants to communicate. But not everyone does this, as you may have noticed. :wink: It’s very human to jump to conclusions based on the first paragraph.

All that to say this . . . when you say something like “marriage is breakable,” my first understanding of this statement is going to be that it’s legally/religiously permissible to break a marriage agreement – that it’s breakable says to me that it’s okay to break it. It looks somewhat like a legal maneuver to me, rather than the result of dropping a crystal goblet.

I’ve been through not one, but two broken marriages. As one of the brothers in our group says of some girls: “She has a broken picker.” :laughing: That was me. Twice abandoned, and I don’t think I’m really all THAT hard to live with. Thank God I now have a husband who loves me so much more than I deserve – but it was very difficult for him to convince me beyond a doubt that He’s not going to change his mind. But what I’m trying to get at is that your saying that marriages can be broken didn’t outrage me as much as it would have done when I was, say, 20. So I can read on and see what you’re really trying to say.

It’s a great hook, btw, but when you use a hook like that you really HAVE to go out of your way to explain it – pretty much right after you use it. Otherwise that’s all a lot of people are going to see. It might work better for you to start right off with “Marriages are fragile and easily shattered – therefore they must be treated with care.” Then I think you’ll find that people read on a little more calmly and are more likely to understand what you’re trying to communicate. Words like “fragile” and “shattered” aren’t legal terminology in any sense, so no one will mistake them for that.

So . . . I hope you don’t mind my wee bit of writing advice. I have a bad habit of offering teaching to people who don’t always want or need it. But I figure we all learn from one another. I’m still waiting for your book to arrive, btw, but I’m told that it’s on its way. The things you’ve shared so far have helped me a great deal and I’m eager to read the whole thing. :slight_smile:

Love, Cindy

#58

Thanks for the feedback Cindy, especially the constructive criticism. The following comment was especially interesting:

“when you say something like “marriage is breakable,” my first understanding of this statement is going to be that it’s legally/religiously permissible to break a marriage agreement – that it’s breakable says to me that it’s okay to break it. It looks somewhat like a legal maneuver to me, rather than the result of dropping a crystal goblet.”

And yet all I’m trying to communicate is the fact that marriage is breakable, not indissoluble as the church has taught for generations. There is a vast difference between “should not” and “cannot”, and that is what I’m trying to communicate. Jesus said “What God has joined together man should not tear apart”, not “cannot”.

What I desire is to help Christians move from thinking of marriage in unrealistic terms and think of marriage realistically, from being founded upon unscriptural principles to being founded on scriptural principles. I believe this is important to help us have healthy lasting relationships/marriages. Challenging tradition is, well, challenging.

#59

My 2 cents, and that’s all it is!! :laughing:

I came from a “broken” home…my parents were “madly” in love and I mean that literally. They loved each other so much, BUT, they did NOT like each other at all. The hell us children paid for their continuous fighting left it’s mark on all three of us kids. The idea of parents “staying together” when they actually can’t stand each other DOES take it’s toll on children. We weren’t stupid, we SAW and FELT the anger and tension, etc. It was HELL living in our house growing up. They finally split when I was 14, and surprisingly, they made much better friends (after 30 years) than they did man and wife. We, as children, paid the price though and have spent years in therapy trying to undo what we thought was OUR fault. Their love ran so deep, that when my dad was dying (34 years after they divorced) my dad admitted that my mother was the love of his life. However, they were SOOOO young when they got married and did NOT have the skills to make it work, so as kids, we did pay their price. Children instinctively know when there is a problem in the home. Kids are smart, so the idea of staying together for the kids, well, my experience is it cost an awful lot of money to undo the damage. I believe they DID love each with such passion and they had so much in common musically, but they just didn’t like each other and our church didn’t believe in divorce so they stuck it out for “us.” Yes, they tried therapy, etc., but to no avail. I can’t look back and say I would be better off IF they had divorced sooner, but I can say it was living hell in our home while they argued it out and “tried” to make it work. Those scars now run deep because as kids we somehow thought it was OUR fault. Yeah, in my heart I wish they had been together when my dad died, but they weren’t and this is our reality as a “family.”

Again, ONLY my 2 cents.

Blessings,
Bret

#60

Exactly – and that’s the point; communication. It’s a vital message from what is (to me) a fresh perspective. When I first got married, that was my take on it; once you’re married, that’s it. You’re safe. Sure, people do get divorced all the time, but that won’t happen to US, because we aren’t like that, and even more important, I am not like that. Yeah. Like I’m superwoman and since it all comes down to me, well, I know it won’t happen because I won’t let it. :unamused:

It is absolutely possible (and even likely) to get to the point that you have, in reality, no choice. It was I who filed for divorce in both marriages and both times on the advice of men who were pastoring the churches I attended at the time. When one partner leaves the marriage, there’s not lot you can do about it. And while in my case it was a physical leaving, that’s almost merciful compared to what some spouses have gone through. So . . . as my sweet husband said to his youngest, “Choose wisely, my son.” :wink:

That’s so hard; at such a young and inexperienced age, to get past the fog of emotion and need and desire to make a considered choice. And beyond that, all the obstacles in the path of learning to live together in peace, let alone in the ecstatic joy that, in their heart of hearts, most young people expect. They don’t understand that it takes years of tears and denying of self(ishness) and looking the other way concerning one another’s very real faults to even get to the point of general happiness some of the time. Love is self sacrifice and friendship and pouring yourself out for the other person. It isn’t getting your needs met and finding someone to make you happy. It’s plain hard work.

Anyway – you’re absolutely right. I think some folks just have a hard time getting past that first big bump.

Love in Him, Cindy