I never said the text uses those words. It does, however, speak in the present tense & says nothing about the chasm being an endless condition or even one that would hinder people from crossing for more than 5 minutes. Furthermore, people get out of Hades. You also ignored post 13 by Thomas Talbott. See also post 14 in that thread re the meaning of words.
I did provide a strong case, as in evidence, not proof, from Scripture. You & qaz have largely ignored all of it. And provided no reasonable Scriptural alternate view. In fact you’ve generally evaded Revelation 20-22 in all discussions I’ve had with you, whenever I’ve commented on those chapters, since they are problematic for your Pantelistic interpretation of the Scriptures. I’ll expect the same here.
I wasn’t dealing with TT but you… IF everyone here had to respond to every quote you’ve pilfered from some other author because you yourself struggle to make any cogent argument of your own, THEN we’d be here for a month of Sundays trying to decipher it all.
You can rest easy qaz… the Greek word <βάσανος> basanos and cognates including <βασανίζω> basanizō DO equal “torment” etc, which is why the bible uses the term or its equivalents.
To be “tested” was to be put under pressure, i.e., biblically rendered as torment (torture). There is NO skerrick of evidence in the Book of Revelation suggesting purifying correction… at all!
Of course as always no biblical texts are produced that promote this dogma relative to the LoF.
As to the partial definition above, here’s the full quote…
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Again I ask you, what is the purpose of God casting people into the lake of fire where He knows they will be tormented “into the eons of the eons”? If they are not there to be corrected, then does Love Omnipotent have them there for the purpose of His sadistic pleasures? As I’ve already said to you earlier in this thread, the - evidence - of the testimony of the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, is that God’s punishments are often clearly corrective. Nowhere is there a single example where His punishments are said to be non corrective & not for the good of the offender. So why should I consider the punishment in the lake of fire to be any different? Does God change? Does His love have an expiry date?
Now your faced, for the third time, with all of the following:
" “So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]”
Tom Talbott said:
“As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead.”
The definition you quoted doesn’t contradict purify. Definition one agrees with it. I think we should accept that definition rather than the other definitions that say torture because it agrees with 1 Corinthians.
Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—The work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
This fits perfectly with the first definition:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Baptism by fire is a theme in scripture:
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13
This verse speaks of the Christians who are chosen by grace in this lifetime called the first fruits. They are saved by the Spirit and through faith in the truth. What Paul is saying here is that Christians (first fruits) are saved by belief in this lifetime. I say this lifetime because if Christians are the first fruits then this implies that there are second fruits. The fact that Paul refers to Christians as first fruits and not the “only” fruits shows this. Although Paul tells us that the first fruits are saved by the Spirit and faith he doesn’t tell us how the second fruits will be saved. We do get a clue however in Luke 3:15-17:
As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ, John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
According to this passage it’s the unquenchable fire that Jesus baptizes in. This is the Lake Of Fire And Sulfur. In the Bible God can and does use fire not only to punish and correct but to purify. As we have seen from the Lexicon the word usage and meanings in “The Lake Of Fire” make that likely. The Bible elsewhere states that God is the savior of all people. Especially of them that believe. So, some are saved by grace through faith in this lifetime others by fire without faith in the next. They are baptized in fire as they die to self and resurrected to new life. Just as believers are crucified with Christ, die to self as they are baptized and risen to new life. What happens at the cross happens in the lake of fire - judgment, destruction, and resurrection. We see this in passages that speak of the restoration of creation through fire as the fire purges and creates a new heavens and earth. This is how all will be reconciled to God. Faith is for this age not the next. The goats undergo the corrective purification of Christ in the lake of fire in the next. When we all embrace Christ in the next life the faith of the elect will pass away.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”(Heb.11:1).
“For we walk by faith, not by sight” (2 Cor. 5:7).
Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? - Romans 8:24
“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known”. (1 Cor. 13:12)
The objects of faith and hope will be fulfilled and perfectly realized in heaven, but love will last forever. In heaven there will be nothing but perfect expression of love towards God and each other. As the Catholic Study Bible states in it’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 13:13-
The translation is misleading because it fails to render the Greek adverb nuni (now). Paul is not saying that all three virtues are eternal, but instead he ties them to the present age. Faith and hope will pass away when we see the Lord in heaven and possess the eternal happiness we yearned for in this life. But “love” never ends (13:8). Rather than passing away, love reaches perfection in the everlasting embrace of the Trinity that awaits the saints beyond this life. (IGNATIUS Catholic Study Bible footnote)
You can quote all the universalists you like Origen and regardless of whether one treats the Luke 16 passage as either literal or figurative, Jesus Himself puts the sword THROUGH your purgatorial universalism (PU) — THAT was my original and main point to which you can do no better than defer to other people’s efforts that appeal more to conjecture than Jesus’ actual words.
As for that whole story… it’s a parable tapping into the general genre of Greek thought of the day; and thus Jesus making good with it to make his own point.
The quotes I gave you show why you can kiss that notion goodbye. You’ve provided nothing from Jesus refuting post-mortem corrective chastening. BTW this thread thoroughly destroyed the Ultra Universalist position from both Scripture & reason:
…and Jesus recounts… “And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’”
Lk.16:26a, CLV, And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established,
It does not say this chasm will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Neither does it explain what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over. Or deny that if they repented they could then end their torments.
Easy to say, but without any evidence or rational argument to support your statement it is quite hollow. Anyone can claim anything, but that doesn’t make it true.
Nowhere does Luke 16 say the rich man in Hades is not being corrected or incapable of being purified while there. Why is he receiving the Word of the Lord correcting him if there is no intent to correct & save him. Furthermore Luke 16 doesn’t mention the lake of fire or deny purification or correction there either. So your bald objection to purgatorial universalism is dismissed.
Repeatedly ignoring all the quotes I gave you while continually reiterating your position may serve to hypnotize & brainwash yourself & your disciples, but it doesn’t convince the objective intelligent observer & doesn’t address the quoted objections to your position:
Umm look above Origen… the text DOES EXPLAIN what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over, i.e., a great gulf fixed — well that is what Jesus reported; thus contrary to your claim your words are not harmonious at all… you are confused!
More to the truth… NOWHERE does the text say the rich man was being “corrected” — in fact the opposite is true as Jesus’ retelling of the tale shows the occupant is in agony, not repenting, but realising he is STUCK in his predicament. What a shame Jesus didn’t have Abraham tell the rich man to repent — nope and nada, your invented PU doctrine doesn’t appear anywhere in the text, at all.
Better question again would be, which verse/s in Luke 16 has… “the Word of the Lord correcting him”???
Lol you’re dreaming. Luke 16 also doesn’t mention anyone playing cards either… next you’ll be claiming they were. Your PU is a joke.
Hades has a fixed gulf but Hades isn’t the lake of fire. Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. There is no fixed gulf in the lake of fire. The gates of the city remain open forever. In the Bible the gates are closed for the protection of intruders. The fact that they remain open shows there’s not need for protection. Once the penalty for sin has been paid (death both body and soul) then there’s resurrection. We see this as the kings and nations are entering into the city after they have been killed under the wrath of the lamb. Christ’s suffering and death was substitutionary. He paid the penalty for sin.
The penalty for sin can’t be eternal suffering for Christ didn’t suffer forever
The penalty for sin can’t be eternal death for Christ was resurrected
I would say that what happens to those in the “Lake of Fire” is that they are destroyed (body and soul) and then resurrected. As a human, Christ died both body and soul paying the penalty for sin and then resurrected. Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. Moreover, the word for punishment in Isaiah is Musar. This is the punishment that is said to fall on the substitute Christ. The word Musar means:
Nowhere in the Bible is the Lake of fire and sulfur called Gehenna. Gehenna was a trash dump outside the earthly Jerusalem. The New Creation is heavenly. The lake of fire is outside the new Jerusalem. Nowhere in the Bible is the lake of fire called Gehenna. The Lake of fire is a completely different context. And as the words for lake fire sulfur in the lexical word studies I gave state we should call it the lake of purification and baptism.
Where in the Bible is the lake of fire called Gehenna? Nowhere. Gehenna was outside the earthly Jerusalem. The new heavenly Jerusalem is a completely different context. Hence the words LAKE FIRE SULFUR. As I showed from the Lexical word studies this is baptism and purification.
Yes, purgatorial universalism is nonsense. Davo has already, no, Christ himself has already stuck a sword through the heart of that drivel, you dimwits!
So while we might agree that Jesus did redeem Creation at the cross by his blood, we should also agree that there is no further unfolding of redemption foretold, no remaining prophecies to yet be fulfilled.
After all, Jesus has already returned! And that thousand years of a “Millennial” Age? Well, that already happened a long time ago, and lasted for like forty years, not a thousand.
We need to quit resisting the truth of full preterism with our jaded literalism, and to just start enjoying our beautiful, perfect, pain-free, death-free, devil-free New Heavens and New Earth, NOW.
Evangelical Universalists Unite: Let’s let go of childish things and move on to recognize what the texts are actually crying out to tell us (in the original Aramaic, anyway): there is no devil, or demons, or Hades, or Antichrist or future Second Coming, or remedial age-during lake of fire. Been there, done that. Poof. Gone.
Again, don’t set yourself up for disappointment. This is all there is. This is as good as it’s gonna get. This is the whole enchilada. Don’t be foolishly hoping that Jesus is “coming back” to straighten anything out—
—because hey, Christ is obviously already here, all in all, reigning in his glory; and we are NOW living in his perfect paradise…you bunch of ingrates! (“Serving you since 70 AD,” ever since bipolar Jesus returned to fry those baby chicks who refused to come under his wings, those Christ-rejecting Jews…and their law, thank you very much.)
My intended point was that the text doesn’t “explain what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over” the gulf. Neither does it explain what the gulf is or represents. Nor state that it will be in place forever. Or how long, or under what conditions, it is a barrier. It tells us that people are not able to cross over. Is that inability wholly on man’s side, or is Love Omnipotent also unable to bring them across? There are many examples in Scripture of humans being unable to do something, yet with God’s ability they are able to do that thing which the humans are unable to do. So if the inability of Lk.16:26 refers to mere human inability, it doesn’t deny them crossing that gulf with Divine assistance. As in, for example, if certain conditions are met, e.g. the repentance of those in “torments”, who are receiving words of truth from the other side correcting them.
Scripture speaks of those who are incurable. Yet later it says they are cured (Jer.30:12,17). So why assume that a gulf that humans are unable to cross in their own ability cannot be crossed with the assistance of Love Omnipotent?
Likewise, in regards to the salvation of another rich man, Jesus says with man this is impossible (Mt.19:26; Mk.10:27; Lk.18:37). Yet with God it is possible, for with God all is possible.
Paul says he would “no more” see the face of certain brethren (Acts 20:25). Does that mean they will never see Paul again for eternity, even in the afterlife? If that is not an absolute statement, why should the statement in Luke 16:26 be absolute?
Acts 4:20 “For we are not able to stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” Were Peter & John literally absolutely “not able” to “stop speaking”? Were they puppets that had no choice in the matter?
Lk.16:26 says they are not able to cross the gulf. Does that mean forever, even with God’s help, or only in their own ability they are not able to do so? Similarly, Luke 1:22 says Zechariah was not able to speak. Does that mean forever, even with God’s help, he was unable, or only in his own ability he was unable? It is the same basic Greek word, Strongs #1410, in both cases:
“to be able, have power, whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom;…” https://biblehub.com/greek/1410.htm
James 3:8 says no human is able to subdue the tongue. Does that include Christ & those filled with the Holy Spirit also? Or does the inability there have limitations? How about in Lk.16:26 where the same Greek word for “able” occurs? Does the inability there also have limitations?
In 2 Cor.13:8 the same Greek word appears again where Paul says “For we have no ability against the truth, but for the truth.” Were those Paul speaks of, therefore, perfect & absolutely “unable” to sin or fall away from the faith? Was that an absolute statement? Or did it have limitations? Compare Luke 16:26 where the same Greek word occurs.
Mk.5:3 “who had the dwelling in the tombs. And no longer was anyone able to bind him, not even with chains”. Was even God Omnipotent not “able” to bind this man? Is the statement absolute? Or does it have limitations?
Rev.13:8a “I know your deeds. Behold, I have set before you a door having been opened, which no one is able to shut it”. No one is “able”? Not even God?
Rev.5:3 “But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it.” No one “in heaven” was “able”? Not even God?
Lk.13:11 “And behold, a woman having a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and she was bent over and not able to lift herself up to the full.” Was she eternally not “able”, even if Jesus’ healed her? Compare Lk.16:26 where the same Greek word for “able” occurs.
Other examples of the Greek word for “able” could be added, but those should suffice to make my point.
It is Greek word, Strongs #1410:
“to be able, have power, whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom;…” https://biblehub.com/greek/1410.htm
If the inability of the rich man to cross the barrier is related to God’s “permission” not being granted because of his unrepentant condition, then once that condition is removed by his repentance then there would be nothing to keep him from crossing the barrier. He would then have “permission” to cross over.
How would you know that he was “not repenting”? Can you see inside his heart? No, you cannot. So you cannot know that he was “not repenting”.
During his life, it is revealed in the account, he didn’t have compassion on the suffering Lazarus. Post-mortem he was experiencing sufferings himself through which he was experiencing what Lazarus experienced, i.e. “torments”, “pain”. If there was no corrective purpose to this, then Love Omnipotent would be a sadist. So it is corrective, which is the rule in Scripture with all of God’s punishment & words of truth to the unrepentant. The rich man is also receiving such words of truth in Lk.16:19-31. If not for his correction, what would be the purpose of such words? Sadism?
Truly he was “stuck”, as you say, in a place or state of “torments”. Yet for how long & under what conditions is not stated. Though the very fact of him being corrected implies a salvific purpose to it all.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.
“They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing – which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they’ve been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages.” https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12
The rich man’s need for repentance is implied by the words spoken to him in the account. Luke 16:27-28 may indicate the rich man’s concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades receiving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.
Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,…
"Son
Lit., child.
“…Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33).”
The point is davo has stated Lk.16:26 refutes purgatorial universalism (PUR). PUR involves purification in the lake of fire (LOF), yet Lk.16:26 makes no reference to the LOF, so how can Lk.16:26 refute PUR? Lk.16:26 doesn’t even deny purification in Hades & davo never explained why he thinks it does but just made that bald unsupported claim.
As to your allegation that “argument from silence” is a “logical fallacy”, the following is from christianforums.com, with Der Alter’s comment & my reply:
[QUOTE=“Der Alter, post: 72876052, member: 11484”]
“if God was a believer in endless punishment…If Jude believed in endless punishment,…” logical fallacy. Argument from silence also trying to second guess God and Jude what they would have said under certain circumstances.[/QUOTE]
“In sum, the argument from silence, like all historical arguments, is always conjectural. But it is not, as some claim, a fallacy. It is the correct default inference from silence. That inference can be strengthened by relevant evidence of a positive kind, or by the continued silence of further evidence.” https://www.umass.edu/wsp/history/outline/silence.html
"Howell and Prevenier state that arguments from silence face the difficulty that a historian can not just assume that an author would have recorded the fact in question; for if the fact did not seem important enough to an author it would have been excluded. http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/argumentum_ex_silentio
Clearly the above statement re “arguments from silence” does not apply to my argument. For it is clear that if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments He would have thought it “important enough” to include many times as a warning in the 27 books of the inspired NT Scriptures. That He did not do so proves that He rejected such a view. And the proof that He didn’t include it is that the words (& expressions) which would have expressed it unambiguously were not used of eschatological punishment.
In this case it is a powerful argument: the superior words to express endlessness - IOW not the aion & aionion that Love Omnipotent usually employs - are never used by Him of eschatological punishment.
Further re “arguments from silence”: “David Henige states that, although risky, such arguments can at times shed light on historical events.[5]” There are “Convincing applications” of the “arguments from silence”: http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/argumentum_ex_silentio
Furthermore, my argument has provided “evidence of absence”:
Where’s your “proof” of that? Are the “torments” of people in the lake of fire (LOF) for the purpose of (1) “to end the old covenant” (2) Love Omnipotent’s sadistic delights or (3) correction? The answer to this multiple choice question seems quite obvious to me.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)
you are a laugh!
