The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?


#181

I don’t know that there remains a literal refuge tip smoldering in the Valley of Hinnom beyond Jerusalem’s walls… somehow doubt it, but no… Jesus’ ‘ gehenna ’ was an object lesson — putting in figurative language that which was real to them, showing that if they didn’t pull their heads in ( with regards to Rome ) they would become in-kind the same, i.e., a smoldering heap of refuge full of worms, gnashing of teeth in out darkness — the rubble and ruin of exclusion, etc.

John Loftus in his book “Why I Became An Atheist” talks of Gehenna:

By contrast , hell (Greek: Gehenna) is a valley outside Jerusalem where the rubbish was burned. I actually visited this place in 1988 and rubbish was still burned there. page 448

Gehenna is a real place outside Jerusalem and is still there. This is a completely different context than the figurative new Jerusalem and figurative lake of fire.

Those who rejected Christ did so in ignorance ( Lk 23:23; 1Cor 2:8; 1Tim 1:13 ) and although most paying the temporal price and consequence ( note: not temporary ) of AD70 did so as part of those who were temporarily hardened, i.e., Paul’s “ in part ” ( Rom 11:7, 25 ) — thus having “ their part in ” the lake of fire ( Rev 21:8 ).

The ignorance here isn’t the kind you are trying to refer to. They had rejected the infinite God-man. This is a sin like no other seeing who God is. All other sins are finite but this is the eternal sin done out a hardened heart towards God.

**Ephesians 4:18~~They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.


#182

Most “figures” are based on “real things” — the figure simply carries an applied meaning USUALLY implied by that very thing… in this case, Jerusalem was to become like the burning heap just outside its walls.


#183

[Origen: "There is a Greek word for “kingdom” & a separate Greek word for “reign”. If God meant “reign” why would He say “kingdom”?

But Jesus spoke Aramaic and in Aramaic the word for “kingdom” (malcut) also means “realm.”


#184

I disagree.
Yes, the “old” covenant did come down out of heaven from God as you say. However, it was NOT the Levitical/ Jewish law. It was what we refer to as the “new” covenant. As 1 Cor. 10:2-4 says, " All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST."

Yes, there is a continuing presence of false teachers, false religions, false gods, sin, etc. etc. and judgments(reaping what we sow) STILL occur as a result.


#185

Of course…


#186

But we also have TRUE teachers…like the visionaries seeing the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)


#187

Davo,

I’m not convinced that the lake of fire is Gehenna. I also see a distinction between ALL HUMANITY and those outside the gates of the new heavens and earth.

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Those outside the gates are zombies because they have committed the eternal sin by rejecting Christ with hardened hearts. Post 70 A.D. all are justified and reconciled to God (God is the savior of all. Especially them that believe) But those outside the gates of the new Jerusalem aren’t part of that. The kingdom in now but it’s also in the afterlife.


#188

Randy, please don’t tell anyone who stumbles upon this site that you have all truth. :laughing:

BTW Merry Christmas Randy, hope that the holiday season see’s you well.:grinning:


#189

No, I don’t Chad. Just the “truth” regarding zombies. And I wish you - and everyone here - a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Perhaps I can combine Christmas greetings and zombies - in one song! :slight_smile::


#190

I’m interested in what @davo has to say on this.


#191

Yes, of course I disagree with you.

What you say doesn’t even match up with the realities of history. Did everyone continue to follow Jesus’ teachings after 70 AD? NO. In fact, many returned to the same old ways.

The temple/priesthood/ sacrifices/service did not disappear as you claim here. They came back into power in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, following the same pattern as that of the Jews.
Building costly temples(cathedrals) to themselves.
Clothing themselves in fancy robes, “taking the best seats in the house”.
Proclaiming their word to be the infallible truth, and anyone who dared to disagree was a heretic sentenced to death.
Declaring food laws.
Paying priests for the pardon of sins.
The list goes on.

These are the very things that Jesus spoke against.


#192

That’s ok I am… but it’s fine we can hold different views on this.

I do too… there is however no more “those outside the gates” as THAT applied to unbelieving Israel of the transitional period — THAT’S predominately what the Book of Revelation is about… the era of covenantal change and in particular the close of that epoch.

You may want to take that view up further with Randy as it’s nowhere near what I advocate and way more in line with his beliefs.

Again these were they who suffered either death or deportation (2Thess1:9) because they clung to the OC mode of existence — a goodly portion of these being believers who fell away to perdition (2Thess 2:3; Heb 10:39; 2Pet 2:20; Jude 1:12) and were as good as twice dead (second death).


#193

Some believe the bible and walk in faith… others trust in their own sight.

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read Josephus’… I’m inclined to trust his history more than your opinion.


#194

And what is your interpretation of this verse, LLC? (i.e. NKJV Mathew 16)

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [a]prevail against it.

Whether we agree with the Roman Catholic position (i.e. Peter as the rock)…or the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant position (Peter’s faith as a rock).

Christ did intend to build a church. So, LLC. Do you agree with this? And if so, what should the church teach…outside of the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)?


#195

How can you be sure of that?


#196

Because it refers to a long past event, situation and scenario, i.e., the AD30—70 change of covenants with particular reference to the latter portion thereof; at least that’s the pantelist position. I have answered this more extensively HERE.


#197

Sorry Davo, but it’s a fact that the Jewish faith STILL exists today.

HF, As Matt. 7:24 says “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.”
Matt. 7:27 “And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.”

There was no change in covenants. As Genesis 17:7 says, “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT to be God to you and your descendants after you.” The “new” covenant was given to Abraham. Many in AD30-70 just saw the falseness in the covenant they were following.


#198

Biblical Judaism as practiced in the 1st century in Temple worship and sacrifice is loooong dead and gone — FACT! Their house (temple) was left desolate… don’t trust Jesus? then read Josephus!

WRONG!!

Jer 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read the Prophets and Apostles… I’m inclined to trust their prophesied and recorded history more than your opinion.

Chapter and verse might be interesting??


#199

Just read this book on the exegetical defense of purgatory. Many scriptures seem to teach it. It’s one possible interpretation anyway. I’m forced to it though because of all the diversity we find in the world today and because of the fact that I think only Satan and his angels can commit the eternal sin and those judged in 70 A.D. who existed at the time of Christ. They, Satan and his angels are punished forever and ever. While sinners today go to eternal destruction they don’t stay there. The author shows the lake of fire and purgatory are in the same location. “Under the earth”. Every knee will bow in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

Those at the time of Christ along with Satan and his angels committed the eternal sin ~~ The crucifixion of Christ.


#200

Of course, it’s also good to know…what

has to say: