The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My personal escape from hell

I wanted to put into writing my own journey out of hell. That is to say my journey out of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. In a way it is a journey out of a personal hell because this doctrine did in fact torment me for a long time. As a non denominational pastor of 30 years with a full gospel Assembly of God back ground, I was reaching a place of intense inward struggle with all that I knew about Gods grace and love and acceptance, and then having to believe an alarm goes off and He transforms into a merciless judge who hates anyone who for a plethora of reasons did not come into Christ in their short span on earth.

I fought this for a long time. Of course hell is forever. Its right there in the bible.
The only problem was that this created an ever increasing spiritual dissonance inside of me of which the effect on my life and spirituality and view of the world I did not fully comprehend.
Could believing in eternal conscience torment make a person more judgmental, less merciful, more prone to anxiety and depression and even make carnal thoughts and temptations harder to resist? Could this undermine the gift of grace a person was promised in Christ and keep them from living in the peace and joy and love that is supposed to accompany those born again?
I would have never guessed that could be the case. The fact is I struggled in all those things for so long. I knew the standards I was to live by but I just assumed the devil was really concentrating on me because Im a leader and we get more enemy fire.
But when I finally opened my heart and began to read the volumes of online study available from the well researched and well reasoned proponents of Universal Reconciliation, It was like a desert was being filled with streams of living water down inside of me. I began to experience the grace powered life like never before.

As I look back I realize that my spirit never really bore witness with the doctrine of eternal hell. The truth is I could muster the confession if asked directly, but I never really preached it. Not out of a deliberate refusal or a fear of man. I have preached many things people did not want to hear about Gods Word on all manner of human sins. I want to be a faithful messenger even if it leads to some people walking away because of unbelief. I don’t scratch ears. But descriptions of a hell of eternal punishment were not flowing from my inner man onto the page like so many other things from Gods Word. Maybe thats because thats never been what the Spirit was saying to the world. In fact I found myself wishing that hell might just be a temporary situation for sinners even before I was enlightened in the truths of Evangelical Universalism. That must have been God preparing my heart for a personal reformation.

Yet I was very vigilant about my doctrine. I had seen others go off onto extra biblical tangents and lead people astray. I saw the legalist and the mystics of the early church corrected and rebuked by the Apostles in the epistles and how they passionately defended the flock from the false teachers.

I saw how famous pastors were leaving sound doctrine and claiming all will go to heaven and there was no hell and that all religions lead to God and that all lifestyles are OK as long as we have love. Maybe its wrong of me to say this, but I don’t have a good feeling about Rob Bell or William Paul Young. I don’t think they want to lead people to repentance. I think they are trying to make repentance irrelevant. I don’t like the tricks they play with the bible. I heard Rob bell say in a video that God sent Jonah to bless Nineveh but Jonah refused to go. That made me angry because he deliberately exploited the ignorance of the general public and distorted the mission of Jonah which was to say “40 more days and Nineveh shall perish!”

In judging peoples sincerity I have always found that you can identify an ulterior motive by looking for contradictions in their actions and words. I have seen many try to exploit or undermine others over the years through feigned love or spirituality. But I was able to see early on before others that they were up to something because their actions betrayed their words in irreconcilable ways that identified their true agenda.
The doctrine of eternal conscious torment, built on certain wordings in the New Testament, just did not agree with the rest of the picture the bible was painting about God. There was a fundamental contradiction that for me betrayed a flaw, but not in Gods Word or plan. It betrayed a flaw in the nameless, faceless, unaccountable people who the worlds understanding of God has been handed to as gatekeepers. These are the translators of the original manuscripts.

In considering how the bible reveals God i see two modes. Statements and stories. The thing about a statement is that every single word in a short statement about God has the power to misinform us if chosen or translated wrongly. Whereas in story mode, certain words can tolerate variation or even a little inaccuracy, yet you still come out with a clear accurate picture of what happened and what the story reveals about God.
As I look at all the stories about Gods dealing with people, I see an unrelenting determination for love and mercy and restoration to win out in the end. Mercy triumphs over judgement! James 2:13
Yet some New Testament statements about Gods dealings with man at the end of the age seem to conflict with these stories. This of course is not a bible error. As many have so skillfully illustrated there are some serious translation issues and Gnostic pollution in the formation of our traditional doctrines.
I would close this post by sayin I am experiencing a renaissance of joy in my life as I study the words of the wonderful people on this forum and other Evangelical Universalists across the web. I feel a brand new passion for the lost in my personal ministry, a renewed thirst for prayer and I cant wait to engage the world on a whole new basis of spiritual motivation which is flowing from a more perfect way.

Please know that I realize I dont have every position perfectly organized in this belief and I may say things that you could correct in some way. But this is not an argument, its my testimony and I hope its appreciated as such.

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Thank you, Mark, for your testimony. I have previously written my own story and intend to expand upon it in the near future.

Norm

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Thank you for your testimony, Mark. May the Lord continue to use you very greatly. (My background is similarly non-denominational and charismatic.)

I am not an apologist for the theology of William Paul Young; in fact, as a “convinced” universalist, I disagree with his uncertainty over whether or not everyone will eventually repent and come out of the lake of fire (i.e., his “hopeful” universalism).

But I very highly recommend his movie, The Shack. While it may not be the best-made, or most entertaining movie I have ever seen, I think it may well be the most important movie I have ever seen. And as to your assertion that Young does not lead people to repentance, I think people who view that film are led to change their minds (repent) about many lies concerning the true nature of God.

Again, thank you.

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Thank you for that transparency. Its awesome that you share that because just today I began feeling led by the Lord to think about the unhealthy compartmentalization ECT doctrine forces our minds to create. I think that there are some real psychological maladies being created by this doctrine that have created some serious dysfunction in the modern church.

I write a lot and save everything in my computer. I was looking at some of my communications earlier today and came across a letter I wrote in 2004. I had totally forgotten writing it.

Frankly, I was surprised to read that I had entertained thoughts about ECT 14 years ago and had expressed them in writing to my pastor at the time. I did not receive a response. Following is an extract from the letter:

As you know, I was in my early twenties when I embraced Reformed doctrine. There is none more zealous than a convert, and I have no problem with 99.9% of what the Doctrinal Standards state, and what our church requires us to believe, especially if we hold office. I have no difficulty with accepting a limited atonement, for example, although I prefer the term “accomplished redemption” to describe the same truth. What I am struggling with is the teaching in all three of our confessions that the “unjust”, the “wicked”, the “unbelievers” who do not repent will spend eternity enduring endless torment and torture of mind and body in a place called hell.

In Article 37 of the Belgic Confession it would almost appear that unbelievers, the “evil ones” will “be made immortal …” for the express purpose of being “tormented in the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”. The same teaching, expressed in slightly different words, can be found in Q&A 44, 52, 84 of the Catechism, and elsewhere in the Belgic Confession and in the Five Points of the Canon.

It is not that I believe in universal redemption – I’ve already confirmed my belief in a limited redemption. I preached a sermon recently about the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. I believe that if we are not saved by grace we remain under condemnation and the penalty remains the same as it was for Adam – banishment from the presence of God. That’s what John 3: 16 – 18 teaches me, at least. That is what I preach.

I believe that Christ died so that we can have what we call “eternal life”. We sample it here and now, but only after we are “raised incorruptible” will we fully experience it and that will be for all of eternity. I hope to improve my golf game in the first 1000 years or so.

For unbelievers to experience torment of mind, spirit and body in hell they will have to be alive. And it will be for eternity, according to the confessions. So does that mean they, too, will have “eternal life”, although it will be a life not worth living?

***, I struggle with the concept that a just, loving God would raise a person from the grave, make them immortal, then torture him, her, a child even, for time and for eternity. I know all the stock answers to that. I know I have only a very limited understanding of spiritual matters, that God’s thoughts are higher than mine, His ways are not my ways, etc. etc. and that sometimes we just have to accept what we have been taught even though it runs counter to our (hopefully) Spirit-controlled conscience. But it remains a problem. I try to take my commitments seriously and will not sign something, or say that I subscribe to something (the Church Order for example) if by doing so I will compromise my integrity.

There, you have it. I’ve laid open my soul to you. (Why am I being reminded of Charles Templeton?). Don’t worry, Templeton threw out everything he had ever believed. I’m only questioning the doctrine about eternal, everlasting physical and spiritual torture.

Today, of course, I still can’t be an office-bearer in the church of which I am a member.

I will be writing much more on all this in the next and subsequent posts.

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I certainly agree. When I was convinced of ECT, I could not think of anything else. The concept is overwhelming, breeds fear, draws lines between people, drives some to legalism and some to despair - but its biggest evil is casting shade on the character of God.
For those that still believe in it, I don’t know how they can bear it - how they can think about neighbors and family and their city, filled with people destined (literally) for hell.

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Dave, in an upcoming post I will comment on how it is that most Christians can live with the doctrine of ECT. I know, you can’t wait, but I have to eat sometimes, lol. :hamburger:

Norm

We live with it because we have faith in God. We haven’t blasphemed His holiness by hardening our hearts against Him because of His wrath. I have this up already but I will share it here. As long as God has morally sufficient and justifiable reasons for hell then it’s not unjust for it to exist. He does nothing wrong in allowing it. Those in the state of hell would have their hearts separated from all mercy as Christ says depart from me. As a result their hearts harden. They would loathe God and His children. They don’t want Him. If they don’t want to love God they don’t have to. But God is never obligated to give someone who hates Him and His children and don’t want to have anything to do with Him the gift of grace. The longer one is in hell the more wicked they become and the more just the punishment would be. What God is mainly doing by keeping evil God haters out of the new creation is protecting His holy children from the contamination and harm of evil. Even those in hell would be protected from harm. God is love and love protects. Justice is to protect and serve. Therefore, the kind of torment is the kind that would be calibrated just right to restrain the wicked from harming each other in hell. God therefore has morally sufficient and justifiable reasons for hell. In all likelihood there are infinitely many more reasons seeing that God is infinite in wisdom in knowledge and logical explanations are infinite in number. I trust God’s love and infinite wisdom and knowledge to run things.

MUCH BETTER, however, is to have every right to destroy someone, but RATHER to love that one and bring him back to joy. That’s the God the scriptures present. That’s the only One to bring heart-peace.

Dave:

Cole:

Dave,

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all…

Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, His authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of His goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.

If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in His providence, of Godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness so ever He bestowed, His goodness would not be so much prized and admired…

So, evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which He made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of His love. And if the knowledge of Him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect. - Jonathan Edwards

The happiness here isn’t cruel and sadistic. As Edwards and Aquinas have stated: It’s not the suffering of those in hell in and of itself that the saints delight in but the glories of God’s love and justice. Aquinas and Edwards never taught a sadistic delight in the sufferings of those in hell. The saints delight in the suffering of those in hell only in the sense that the glory of God will appear in it. The saints will feel the intense glory of God as he shows His tender love for them by bringing His justice down on evil God haters.

No. I hope everyone is saved although I don’t think everyone will be.

Im sorry but the catagorization of all lost people as “god haters” belies a highly uninformed framework regarding the vast variety of unsaved people. The fact that you need to pidgeon hole all lost people as god haters speaks of the kind of compartmentalization that is required to cope with the intense cognitive dissonance created by the conflicting views of both God as love and God as torturer. Demonization of others makes it much easier to resolve all these conflicts but at what cost to our own heart?

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When Christ says depart from me they are separated from all mercy. As a result their heart hardens. All those in hell will hate God. You already do because of His wrath.

Psalms 86:13
For great is thy mercy towards me, thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

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Ok thanks. whaddaya think about ps 86:13?

I think its a prophecy of those who will be finally released.

Mark: I really appreciate your testimony. It relates closely to my own struggle and search for truth, except that, in my 78th year, it took considerably longer for me to question what I had believed as gospel for so long. I have noted, however, in an earlier post on this topic, that I had already started to question belief in ECT back in 2004.

I have researched quite extensively what ECT pastors and scholars have written about the future density of infants. There appears to be no consensus. Hyper-Calvinists state that all non-elect infants will suffer damnation in hell for eternity. Others, less strict adherents of Reformed doctrines and also from other belief systems, claim that children only become at risk of hellfire after they have attained “the age of accountability”, whenever that is. But none of them is able, or willing, to define what that age might be. Interestingly, I have heard reports of fathers snatching their newborns from the birthing bed and taking them to a minister (Reformed, of course) to be baptized. I would presume, without much hope, that they include the mentally-disabled within the same list of exclusions as infants.

Some might be interested in the following compilation of some of the views an this subject:

Bishop St. Fulgentius, 4th century
Be assured, and doubt not, that not only men who have attained the use of their reason, but also little children who have begun to live in their mothers’ womb and there died, or who, having been just born, have passed away from the world without the sacrament of holy baptism, administered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, must be punished by the eternal torture of undying fire; for although they have committed no sin by their own will, they have nevertheless drawn with them the condemnation of original sin, by their carnal conception and nativity." (sec. 70.)

Limbo
Sometime in the 1200s, the concept of limbo slowly evolved. I read so many sources and found that this one did a good job of summarizing the complexities. Basically, limbo is a place which is described as a state (and place) of natural happiness which means less happiness than supernatural happiness. Note that baptism is the key to salvation in this line of thinking.
In the 12th century, Peter Abelard (1079–1142) said that these infants suffered no material torment or positive punishment, just the pain of loss at being denied the beatific vision. Others held that unbaptized infants suffered no pain at all: unaware of being deprived of the beatific vision, they enjoyed a state of natural, not supernatural happiness. This theory was associated with but independent of the term “Limbo of Infants”, which was forged about the year 1300.
If heaven is a state of supernatural happiness and union with God, and hell is understood as a state of torture and separation from God then, in this view, the Limbo of Infants, although technically part of hell (the outermost part, “limbo” meaning “outer edge” or “hem”) is seen as a sort of intermediate state.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) described the Limbo of Infants as an eternal state of natural joy, untempered by any sense of loss at how much greater their joy might have been had they been baptized. He argued that this was a reward of natural happiness for natural virtue; a reward of supernatural happiness for merely natural virtue would be inappropriate since, due to original sin, unbaptized children lack the necessary supernatural grace. In regards to baptism of desire, Aquinas stated that only adults were capable of this, and this view seemed to be accepted by the Council of Florence, which quotes Aquinas in its Eleventh Session concerning baptism of infants.
The natural happiness possessed in this place would consist in the perception of God mediated through creatures. As stated in the International Theological Commission’s document on the question:
Because children below the age of reason did not commit actual sin, theologians came to the common view that these unbaptized children feel no pain at all or even that they enjoy a full, though only natural, happiness through their mediated union with God in all natural goods (Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus).
This belief in limbo was not an ex cathedra position. In other words, Catholics were not required to believe it. Many did not and, instead, believed that infants went straight to heaven.
The Post Reformation view
Neither the Eastern Orthodox church nor the Protestant church believes in the doctrine of Limbo. In an article by Al Mohler, we see that many theologians (Calvinist and not) believed in the salvation of infants.
John Newton, the great minister who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace was certain of this truth. He wrote to close friends who had lost a young child: “I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace.
The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield held the same position.
One of the most eloquent and powerful expressions of this understanding of infant salvation came from the heart of Charles Spurgeon. Preaching to his own congregation, Spurgeon consoled grieving parents: “Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days.”(7) Spurgeon turned this conviction into an evangelistic call. “Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there, too? He continued: “Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise.
In fact, it appears that Spurgeon got a bit bent out of shape when accused of believing that infants who die go to hell: It has been wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists, that we believe that some little children perish. Those who make the accusation know that their charge is false. I cannot even dare to hope, though I would wish to do so, that they ignorantly misrepresent us. They wickedly repeat what has been denied a thousand times, what they know is not true…. I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect.
John Calvin believed that some infants who died would be saved and others would not. However, I want to make a caveat. There are some who claim he said he believed all infants are saved.
“But how, they ask, are infants regenerated, when not possessing a knowledge of either good or evil? We answer, that the work of God, though beyond the reach of our capacity, is not therefore null. Moreover, infants who are to be saved (and that some are saved at this age is certain) must, without question, be previously regenerated by the Lord. For if they bring innate corruption with them from their mother’s womb, they must be purified before they can be admitted into the kingdom of God, into which shall not enter anything that defileth (Rev. 21:27). If they are born sinners, as David and Paul affirm, they must either remain unaccepted and hated by God, or be justified. (Inst. Book 4, Sec. 17)
Here is a general overview on other historical figures.
It is interesting to discover that the Church has not been of one mind on this issue. In fact, the early and medieval Church was anything but united. Some Church Fathers remained silent on the issue. Ambrose said unbaptized infants were not admitted to heaven but have immunity from the pains of hell. Augustine basically affirmed the damnation of all unbaptized infants but taught they would receive the mildest punishment of all. Gregory of Nyssa offered that infants who die immediately mature and are given the opportunity to trust Christ. Calvin affirmed the certain election of some infants to salvation and was open to the possibility that all infants who die are saved. He said, “Christ receives not only those who, moved by holy desire and faith, freely approach unto Him, but those who are not yet of age to know how much they need His grace.” Zwingli, B.B. Warfield and Charles Hodge all taught that God saves all who die in infancy.
Martin Luther: Some are condemned?
Now this one I had to back into. My guess is that he believed that baptized infants would be saved and unbaptized infants might not.
Curiously, Warfield focuses his sights on Zwingli (who, by the way, held all infants who die in infancy are elect) and completely ignores John Calvin. In fact, Calvin’s view is buried in a footnote in another essay! Why? Luther all but questioned whether Zwingli was saved over the universalism he held on Infant Salvation.
Another source notes
In 1518, Warfield still held that the infant is regenerated and saved through the merit of the faith of its sponsors; in 1520 (De Captiv. Baby. Eccl.) he abandons this view and holds that in Baptism infants themselves believe.
Another source remarks that he gave infants a Christian burial so he probably believed they went to heaven.
John Wesley: Some are condemned?
He had to deal with the issue of original sin. In a letter he indicates that, “Therefore no infant ever was or ever will be ‘sent to hell for the guilt of Adam’s sin,’ seeing it is canceled by the righteousness of Christ as soon as they are sent into the world.” (29W), 6:239-240.
Jonathan Edwards: They burn eternally.
This is by far the most troubling statement of belief; (Comment by Invernessian – you don’t say?)
It is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"
1619 Canons of Dort and 1649 Westminster Confession of Faith
The Reformed view, which has been strongly based on the Fallenness of mankind & the rejection of some neutral state has moderated over the years but originally held that the children of the Elect (Christians) automatically go to heaven.

Since we are to judge of the will of God from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature, but in virtue of the covenant of grace, in which they, together with the parents, are comprehended, godly parents have no reason to doubt of the election and salvation of their children, whom it pleases God to call out of this life in their infancy. (1619 Canons of Dort 1:17)

Or from later, the Westminster Confession of Faith 1646,

Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So, also, are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. (WCF 10:3)

The overall sentiment by the Reformers is that while the infants of non-believers MAY go to hell, the children believers do automatically go to heaven.


Part 3
What do Reformed leaders, some of whom are Baptists, believe today?
Al Mohler and Danny Akin, ,John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and John MacArthur, all believe that infants who die go to heaven. They each have their reasons why they believe this. (Some believe that all infants who die are elect, for example).
However, just because they believe it, does not mean that others in their camp also believe it. In fact, a fairly common view amongst some conservative Calvinists is the salvation of some infants is dependent on one of the following two reasons.

  1. Infants are divided into elect and not elect. The elect ones are saved.
  2. Infants born into elect families are saved.

A statement from the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) on the matter.
The Westminster Confession of Faith uses very precise and carefully chosen language on this matter: “Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word” (10.3).
The Confession entertains the idea that at least some infants who die in infancy and some others “who are incapable of being outwardly called” are among the elect. Note our Lord’s words to His disciples in Luke 18:15,16 (the word for babies in v.15 indicates nursing babes, infants): He says that “such as these possess the kingdom of God”).
However, the Confession does not say that all such infants, etc., are saved. What it does say is that the Holy Spirit can regenerate such who are elect by means of His sovereign choosing. Surely John the Baptizer presents an instance of infant regeneration (in the womb), Luke 1:39-44.
Division in the SBC continues.
A post asserts that the salvation of all infants who die
has basically become the dominant view of the Church in the 20th century.
So, isn’t the debate pretty much over?
From that same Between the Times article we read:
Yet, a popular evangelical theologian chided Billy Graham when at the Oklahoma City memorial service he said, “Someday there will be a glorious reunion with those who have died and gone to heaven before us, and that includes all those innocent children that are lost. They’re not lost from God because any child that young is automatically in heaven and in God’s arms.” The theologian scolded Dr. Graham for offering what he called “. . . a new gospel: justification by youth alone.”
I do not know which theologian made this remark, but one thing is certain. There is a divisive fight over Calvinism which is ongoing in the Southern Baptist Convention. There is a great deal of mistrust on both sides of the aisle. When there is controversy and mistrust, both sides must jump through hoops for the sake of peace and unity. That certainly does not appear to be the case in this instance.
Gerald Harris decided to write the committee members to ask who did not affirm that infants who die go to heaven. He did not receive responses from all of the members.
Some did not respond and one would have to conclude that they did not receive my emails, they simply chose not to respond, or they were hesitant to acknowledge personally that they affirm that certain infants who die are not among the elect and will suffer judgment in hell.

Furthermore, Peter Lumpkins reports that Harris cited committee member Eric Hankins, indicating Hankins suggested the wording of the section Harris cited and questioned had been crafted to “accommodate some members of the advisory team who were not comfortable with the assertion that all who are morally incapable who die go to heaven.” Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary School of Theology dean and professor, David Allen, reportedly concurred with Hankins’ statement.

At this point, Lumpkin queries whether Tom Ascol and Mark Dever may be two committee members who disagree with the salvation of all infants.

The Pulpit and Pen adds to the bonfire
Instead of saying “Come and let us learn to trust each other”,
" JD Hall starts name calling. When names start flowing, you know that the battle has moved outside of the Bible and we are now playing the old Pharisee “sons of dogs” game. He accuses those who disagree of being “Semi-Pelagian” which in Calvinistaville means you are going to hell in a handbasket. Somewhere, in the middle of the name calling, he rises to the defense of Ascol and Dever. Well, Dever, anyway. Ascol is still “forthcoming.” Why not call him and ask? Oh, that’s right. Ascol doesn’t need to answer such questions (how dare he!)
It appears that Lumpkins has again suffered from foot-in-mouth disease, as it was pointed out in the comments section following the post, Mark Dever has explicitly confessed belief that infants are heaven-bound. In the meantime, a search for an Ascol quotation declaring the damnation of babies is still forthcoming.

Now, on to the next subject,

Norm

What are your thoughts?