The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My Top Six Scriptures That Show Jesus Will Save All People


#41

My question would be these things that influence these people are externally applied and thus I’d say forced. For the well being of His creation but to say it “influences” is putting it mildly. If an atheist doesn’t wanna go through judgement or “aionis kolasis” and it’s against their initial will then in no way can we say its not forced.

I always love your posts. And me and you are in agreement on many things. But free will to me doesn’t make sense. And saying God will put any sense of external pressure, to get them to accept against their initial supposed free will not to, is the definition of force.

I guess what I’m saying is you can’t say they make a free will decision, a decision made without external influence, if then we go on to say an external influence is applied which eventually bends their will against their initial will.

Either they make the choice freely without external coercion or they dont. Judgement is upon every man despite their will.

I for one am glad He forces this external influence for the eventual benefit of His creation.

I love you though buddy. I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on this but I’m sure we will strengthen and sharpen our particular metal against one another.


#42

If a man chooses to draw a picture, without external pressure to do so, then the choice could be said to be one freely made.

If however a man is corced by an external force, say a gun, to draw a picture it can’t be said to be a choice freely made.

Thus is judgement and aionian kolasis. Its an external force. A good one, with good purpose, But an external force coercing one’s will either way.

If something external influences ones opinion it cant be said that it was made freely of ones own volition.


#43

I don’t mind the word will. God gives us wills, He hardens whom He hardens and has mercy upon whom He has mercy. He makes from the clay a vessel of honor and from the same clay a vessel of dishonor.

My quarrel is with the word “free” will. We are hardly free in any sense. From Adams sin, from Christ attonement,God’s will to reconcile all things and judgement and chastisement.

Also free will asserts we choose God or choose to have faith. None choose God, none seek Him. But it is Him who chooses us and gives us faith.


#44

Think of Paul who hated Christians yet when he saw the risen Christ, how long did it take to change his life paradigm , about 30 SECONDS! So would you say Paul was a strong willed person and if so, how long would it take for the average person?


#45

Would that thinking apply to a human father who attempts to get his son to change his behaviour? Does he do away with his son’s ability to choose by his methods of influencing his son? Do these methods constitute “force”?


#46

I would say, in the form of chastisement, yes it would be external force. Unless its a “hey son will you do better” without coercion of threat or punishment if they dont than it cannot be said to be of ones own “free” will as there is an external factor influencing his decision against his will to not have that external factor applied. Not that it is necessarily bad, but it is force none-the-less. If a choice is made because external factors or pressure is influencing the decision then it is hardly "free"will or unrestrained which is in the definition of the idea of free will.

If the child says “i do not want to be reprimanded”, and is still chastised, then by the very act of chastisement against there will is an act against there “free” will.

Not to blow it out of proportion but none would hardly say a man with a gun to his head is making a choice of his own free will. Mainly because an external force is being applied to influence his decision.

Thus is adams sin and Gods judgement. External forces that influence our being, apart from our will to be a part of it or not.

The very idea of judgement and chastisement, having no say in wether we want to be a part of it at all or not, is the very definition of external influence and force. And so it cannot be said that it is not forced upon the unwilling (take for instance an atheist).

I posted these verses on the faith/works debate topic but figured Id share here to lend scriptural credibility to my argument for any who may not be over there as well.

"But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’“Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?…”

“for to vanity was the creation MADE SUBJECT – NOT OF ITS OWN WILL, but BECAUSE of HIM who DID SUBJECT it – in hope,”

“for GOD did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.”

“‘HE hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;’”

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Those are definitely limits set by God, and obviously limits mans will so that it cannot be said to be “free” to go against what He has subjected man to.

Also side note, i have two accounts now. one for my phone :stuck_out_tongue:


#47

The way I see it

We are born with adams condemnation via our pre-determined propensity to sin, we dont chose wether we are born, we dont choose where or to whom we are born, we dont chose what our genetic makeup foretells about our future health, we dont choose God, we dont choose to have faith or not, we do not choose Christ, we do not choose righteousness, we dont choose if or how or when we die, we do not choose wether to be judged or not, etc etc etc.

All these external factors hardly give the idea of “free” will. Much less where it really matters (salvation), our “freedom” is so limited, if there be any left at all, it can hardly be expressed as “free”.

I guess what Im really saying is, unless a man can avoid being judged all together, than it is an imposition. Whether you define it as “influence” or “force” it would be against their will to enforce it either way and an external factor influencing their decision which goes against the definition of “free” will. A good imposition, but an imposition none-the-less. It coerces the persons will, albeit for his good, but is coercion none-the-less.

and this doesnt even take into account verses like God blinding the pharisee and israel, binding all in vanity not willingly, etc etc etc. Theres many of those that, at the very core, leave no room for the individual to decide freely but is purposed directly by God and limiting their ability to act freely.

In fact even given the benefit of the doubt, the very idea that Gods patience will outlast mans stubbornness, also goes against the notion of free will. As there is another external factor, mans fatigue, that will influence his decision.

I rest knowing I am but clay and God is the potter (romans 9:21). He is sovereign above all creation. Purposing good and evil for His reasoning alone (isaiah 45:7). And that, ultimately, His will in the fullness of time is good for the whole of mankind.


#48

Even though it is “in the form of chastisement,” it is not force in the sense that the free will of the child is negated. He may still choose to follow his own inclinations anyway.


#49

It is though Paidion. If His will is to not be judged, and the child is judged and reprimanded against his will not to be, you cannot say that it isnt an imposition of his will.

Im not defining force as wether a mans will plays a part or not. Im defining force as an external application to influence mans decision. Given the benefit of the doubt man has “free” will in the first place.

If an atheist doesnt wanna be judged, chastised, and influenced by such but it happens against that will then it IS an external force and an imposition of his will.

It just simply CANT go both ways. Either they have free will to avoid judgement and chastisement or they dont.

Is this imposition for their good? Yes. but just because its for their good doesnt make it any less of an imposition.


#50

https://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

I think this would be a good read. It debunks the whole idea of “free” will.

If we cant choose God, If we cant choose Christ, If we cant choose to live ultimately sinless, If we cant choose to be away from adams condemnation, if we cant choose faith but it is given, if we cant choose to be away from judgement, if we cant choose not to die in sin, etc etc etc then MANS WILL IS NOT FREE.

Also, when I use caps its for emphasis. Im not yelling :stuck_out_tongue:


#51

The question/problem of free will has been argued throughout history, books have been written for and against, right up to present day. We can take our stand wherever we ‘will’ - but the ‘problem’ will always be a problem…


#52

In the scriptures, at least to me, it makes it clear that there is limitation of our will. That being what God subjects us too. Whether it be unbelief or faith etc. So, if we are to go by scripture, there is at the VERY least a good amount of predetermined external variables. And thus, I am to logically conclude myself, if man have any will apart from God subjecting Him to that will then it can hardly be said to be “free”.

On a side note your response reminded me of this video. I posted it in another conversation between me and Paidion. But anytime me and him have discourse about this subject, which might I say I do enjoy even though we disagree, It brings up this video in my head. Its only three minutes and a good watch if I do say so myself.


#53

whoops thats the directors commentary.

Heres the full one


#54

Yes, I’ve seen the vid as well.
I’m not making an argument for/against - I am pointing out the simple fact that equally intelligent, God-loving men and women have disagreed over this, both thinking their views are ‘scriptural’ - for a very long time.
As an issue, the best I can say for it is - have fun with, at least, and let’s not once again replay the somewhat ill-tempered battles of the past. $.02


#55

I should have worded the “debunks free will” part better. I should have put it in the context of it refutes “free moral agency” which is what that article delves into. But if on a micro scale if our agency is restrained then it would follow that on a macro scale of will there would also be restraints and thus couldnt be truly free.

And I agree! I dont wanna come of as to question Paidions loyalty or love for God. I can see it in his posts. And he is indeed quite intelligent. Im never trying to attack someones character but mainly address their reasoning and provide a rebuttal in defense of my conflicting views. I realized that, sense this is a sensitive topic, my refutations could be seen as brash or insulting. Which is why I tried to preemptively address the tone of my “argument” as friendly debate, lest it come off as less than friendly.

I love and always enjoy civil discussion. And I have no question as to whether Paidion is smart or loves God as much as I do. I know he does.


#56

either way if I ever came off as combative or insulting to anyone here I apologize and whole heartedly want everyone to know that was and never is my intention.


#57

I wasn’t criticizing - you’ve been fair and open and friendly, imo, and that’s a good thing! Thanks!


#58

In Joshua 24:15, it seems that God said:
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Hmmm… was God mistaken in believing the Israelites had the ability to choose?
That’s what “free will” is—the ability to choose.


#59

That article I posted actually went into depth about that verse. Much less this is before the “mystery” was revealed unto Paul that God is working ALL things, even disobedience, in accord with His will.

Ive tried to answer your responses the best I can. But could you do me a favor and respond to the verses I provided above showing the opposite and how you would interpret free will into it? As I am genuinely curious how free will can be interpreted into the passaged where God is subjecting creation. One of them even states we are subjected to vanity NOT willingly. And if there be any external force that limits our will then it cannot be said to be truly free.


#60

Also , though it may have been on a different post or maybe i didnt, that I stated that I believe that God is playing a role among His creation and condescending down to them for His purposes.