The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My Top Six Scriptures That Show Jesus Will Save All People


#102

As far as you “choosing” to have faith…

I think that source both covers that we CANT “choose” God or faith on our own “free” will AND that our will is severely limited and our natural state,unless God GIVES faith, is to be apart from God in our minds, works, and relationship with Him. Surely all of those plain verses cant mean exactly the opposite, free will to do right or save ourselves, from which they state so emphatically against.

Notice how it uses scripture only. Not a theologian, or some commentary from the publisher, but scripture alone to prove its points.

And THAT is what makes Gods UNCONDITIONAL grace, salvation of all, and GIVING anyone faith such a miraculous gift to mankind. We can not in ANY way save ourselves. Not by actions or willing. But by Him who is showing mercy. Romans 9:16

We cannot act righteously or come to God without Him divinely intervening and pulling us out of our default and set state of being fallen.


#103

And if I seem flustered well its because I am. Ive been told basically that I have “limited thinking” which to me came off as a passive aggressive way to say “you just arent smart enough” and have basically been told “you just dont read enough to understand” when I doubt the sources I posted were/are/or will be read at all.Seeing as how the first one addressed some of the very rebuttals Ive come across in this thread in which I posted it AFTER it was posted. And if you didnt mean it that way and Im just reading into things too much than thats my fault. But it definitely came off that way to me.

So if im coming off brash I apologize because I am quite frustrated and feel a bit insulted even if that wasnt your intentions. So ill just be getting off for the night.


#104

So… given the term “freewill” causes you no-end of consternation and frustration WHAT term would you like to use that describes man’s ability to fully choose in given areas of life — albeit sometimes within certain constraints or parameters? What term works for you that expresses and acknowledges THIS reality?


#105

The fact is we cant choose righteousness or God if you go by what scripture says on the matter. So what good is this “free” will in a discussion about spiritual matters based on scripture?

You mean the parameters of being utterly fallen and enslaved to sin apart from divine intervention to give you faith?

what reality? The one where you have no free will in spiritual matters?

As I would assume Im guessing you didnt even look at this source but you should. Because the reality you are proposing simply isnt reality.

it will use scripture alone to show what reality is and why Gods grace and salvation of all is a miracle and not some act on our part by some supposed “free” will.


#106

Anyways Im off for the night. Ive had enough patronization for one day. Done being told Im not smart enough, dont read enough, dont listen to enough of the right theologians, and dont live in reality because I take scripture over all of the above.


#107

Ok, see you tomorrow.
Argument is not patronizing in its intent.
Playing the “I know scripture” card and implying the rest do not, is maybe not helpful.

We are all, as far as I know, happy to have you here. Don’t take offense - we’ve all had to sit in the hot (at least warm) seat on more than one occasion.


#108

Discourse wasnt the patronizing part. Its what was being said in light of the discussion.

Im not saying Im the only one who knows scripture. However it does seem that Im the only one taking some statements literally instead of trying interpret them in a way that supports “free” will idea that we “choose faith” and “choose right action”.

I mean I dont understand how someone can see a verse like “God subjects creation/person(s) to X” and says “ah yeah creation/person(s) had a choice in X”. It makes NO sense.


#109

Good morning.
Well, obviously if there is no choice to be made, noone can choose it. I don’t think anyone is saying - I may be wrong about this - but noone is saying that we are free to choose the impossible. That’s an oxymoron, or some such logical contradiction.
I do think the free-willers believe that IF there is a choice to be made, one can make that choice.
It’s so hard to wade through the maze of issues involved. I will stick with my “FWED” and let the rest of you pursue this. I’m old and feeble.
It’s GOOD that you stick to your principles, ATR. People will question them of course.


#110

First we would have to define what is impossible to the natural man. That would be willing up our own faith and righteousness by scripture standards taken literally.


#111

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I willed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.” (Mt.23:37)

Here Jesus wills to gather, but men resist His will. Is that free will?


#112

“no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;”

Faith is given not willed up inside a person. That was before Pauls revelation that God is working ALL things, disobedience unbelief etc, to His will.

Ive said before that any verse supposing free will is in the context of God playing a role, and condescending down to humans, to fullfill His purposes.

Just like universal reconciliation can make sense of judgement and destruction text but not vice verse, so can the Sovereignty of God make sense of “free will” verses but not vice versa.


#113

In my opinion if people REALLY think God didnt know where adam was in the garden, instead of God playing a role, then they arent seeing God as God. Being all powerful, all knowing, and subjector of all things working all things in accord with HIS will.


#114

Paul states that His freedom (from sin) only began when he was GIVEN faith. Apart from divine intervention, that of Grace bestowing faith, the only freedom we have is to be a slave to sin and to die to it and remain dead in our trespasses.


#115

If these verses clearly show that there is no free will as you believe, then why didn’t the early Christians,were were familiar with these verse, see them as you do? Here are their arguments IN FAVOUR of free will:

100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

[About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]

130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God…And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice…If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

150-190 AD : Athenagoras
“men…have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)…”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him…And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman…they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

155-225 AD : Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )

185-254 AD : Origen
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

185-254 AD : Origen
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

347-407 AD : John Chrysostom
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost…it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help…It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

120-180 AD: Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

(died 180 AD):Melito
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

163-182 AD:Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

130-200 AD:Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

150-200 AD:Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

155-225: Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)


#116

I mean no disrespect but, ive adressed the “free will” verses many time and so do my sources that arent read. So im not gonna read a wall of text when the favor is obviously not being reciprocated by hearing me out, reading what I write, or the sources I post. I keep repeating the same answers that arent being heard. So i dont know how responding, in the same manner I have consistently replied, will make any difference by repeating it again in response to the theologians remarks.

Also Im not big on theologians. I can care less about what they wanna say or how they interpret scripture to fit their theosophical bias. Theology is wrought with the traditions of men trying to make scripture fit what they want to believe.Some going as far as to mistranslate scripture to support their theology. Thats indeed where the theology of eternal hell even came from. When there is clear statements provided in scripture that contradict theologians advocating “free will” Ill stick to scripture as opposed to what men believe or say.

For the third time, though I doubt itll be read, these verses show how SEVERELY LIMITED our “free will” is in spiritual matters.

It doesnt commentate on it. It lets scripture alone speak for itself.

I dont care if I can supposedly choose cinnamon toast crunch or cheerios. I wanna know how will applies to spiritual matters based off scripture alone. And from scripture, when taken at face value without injecting our own theologies into it, show that we have no “free” will in spiritual matters but are subject to the will of God.


#117

Your “freedom”, apart from divine intervention, is to continue falling,being enslaved and dying to sin.

Thats why faith, grace, salvation, and the reconciliation of all things IS OF GOD ALONE and a kind miracle given to mankind.


#118

“Free” will exalts humans over Gods will. Essentially making them out to be their own gods. Which was the second lie told to eve. “You shall not surely die but become Gods”


#119

Does God subject creation to vanity? Does He harden hearts? Does He blind people? Does He consign people to disobedience? Does He make the clay? Does He counsel all things according to His will?

Yes or no?

If yes then GOD is in control not us.

If no then I really dont see the point of continuing the conversation when Ive provided scripture clearly stating that He does.


#120

Ive given scripture and logic to show you how limited, if any , our will is apart from God.

I cant validate my point with anything but scripture and logic. If that isnt sufficient then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


#121

ATR, if you’re looking for responses to many of your comments, they were already addressed in two very long discussions on freewill vs determinism not long ago:

There’s also many hundreds of online discussions, websites & books re the same debate.