The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My Top Six Scriptures That Show Jesus Will Save All People


Ill look into them. But what is bugging me a bit is that, while Im being responded to, Ive hardly had any response in refutation to the verses Ive posted. As well as, yesterday, feeling a little belittled by some even though I admit that may not have been their intentions.

I keep getting asked questions Im supposed to respond to, and have many times, yet this hasnt been reciprocated back to me by answering my very simple questions.

I mean to me this question is very simply answered and yet, though people are responding they wont answer it;

"Does God subject creation to vanity? Does He harden hearts? Does He blind people? Does He consign people to disobedience? Does He make the clay? Does He counsel all things according to His will?

Yes or no?"


Does God have free will?

Well… God created man in His own image (Genesis 1:27).

If God has free will, wouldn’t it follow, then, that man also has free will?


Non-sequitor fallacy. Thats like saying because God is sinless then we are sinless.


Yes. Yet none of that necessarily rules out libertarian free will.


I wish paidion would stop dodging ATR’s questions about verses that seem to teach determinism.


If we are consigned to disobedience I dont see how that would fit beside we have free will to be obedient without God producing obedience and righteousness within us through His actions.

How can something be free while also being subjected to something that limits it?

But I thank you for at least answering. Genuinely.


p.s. If He blinds someone I dont see how they can will themselves to see.

If He hardens ones heart I dont see how they can will themselves a heart of flesh.


Subjecting a bird to clipped wings then telling it that it has the freedom to fly seems an illogical contradiction to me.


Do you refer to Rom.11:32?

Have you read any pro free will commentaries on the subject?


Ive also asked, in light of o.t. and n.t. verses speaking of the potter and the clay, can clay do ANYTHING except sit on the table apart from the potters hand?


No, it’s not like that at all. For man WAS sinless in the beginning, just as he had free will in the beginning. Man BECAME sinful because he CHOSE to disobey God. That happened AFTER he was created, through his own choice, and so the sinful nature was passed on to his descendants.


I wish ATR would stop dodging the answers about verses that seem to teach determinism are RELATIVE TO Israel’s redemption.


It is a non-sequitor fallacy. Saying “because God has free will then we have free will” is just as much the same as saying “Becuase God can create the universe so can we” or “because God is omnipotent so are we”

If God sent Christ as a response, instead of destining the fall so that Christ could be glorified, then Christ was plan B and plan A was hoping man would be obedient.


Clay can’t do anything, but we can do things apart from our Creator. If we couldn’t then none of us would sin, doing wrong, hurtful things to others. Or do you think it’s God’s will that some people torture or kill other people.


First of all that was never proposed to me in the form of a question anywhere. Secondly I have tried my best to answer all questions from my understanding where as mine were completely ignored or side-skirted.


Isaiah 45:7 “I create light and darkness good and evil”

" Hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?"


The “evil” to which Isaiah refers is not moral evil, but floods, earthquakes, etc.


The word there is ra which is evil. It does not say “natural evil” in that verse.

Also, and I know you dont attribute the slaughter of the cannanites commanded by God to God, but His will WAS for them to slaughter the cannanites.

God is the author of law, and therefor anything He purposes is lawful and thus not sin.


" Hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?"

And what of this verse. It clearly states we are but clay, and God is the potter. Purposing some for good (honor) and some for bad (dishonor).


“if god has free will we have free will”

non-sequitor fallacy

“well what about theologians disagreeing with you”

appeal to authority fallacy

“or do you think its Gods will that some people torture or kill other people”

appeal to emotion fallacy.

Im not in the business for apologizing for God creating and purposing evil. Im in the business in understanding and having faith that God does this for a purpose unbeknownst to us.