The Evangelical Universalist Forum

No End?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Universalists often quote 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

But if Christ’s kingdom has an end, why does Luke 1:32-33 say “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end”?

#2

Hi Mike
If I may try this one:
As I understand it, the Greek word ‘telos’ for ‘end’ can have slightly different meanings (just as in English).
It can mean ‘the ultimate purpose’ or ‘the goal’, ‘the aim’ (as in Corinthians). We might use ‘end’ in this sense when we say ‘the end justifies the means’. In these cases we can see that the ‘end’ never finishes.

However, we also use ‘end’ to mean ‘termination’, finishing point. In Luke, he is using telos in this sense to mean ‘no termination’ ie go on for ever.
Perhaps it is interesting that Luke did not say ‘aionion’ for everlasting (because aionion actually means ‘for an age’ despite what we have been taught), but rather went for ‘no end’.

God bless

#3

Hi Michael,

Just to piggyback onto what Pilgrim shared.

Another meaning of the word “end” is “limit,” and I think that could be what is intended in Luke. There will be no limit to Christ’s kingdom, because we know that He must conquer everything, everyone, everywhere, whether here on earth or in the heavens. No plane of existence will be beyond His rule when all is said and done. It will, literally, have no end, or limit or border.

It’s also possible that the meaning is that Christ’s kingdom will continue even after His kingship ends as described by Paul. I don’t know, really.

In any case, I think it’s clear that whatever the actual meaning in Luke, there is no getting round the clear words of Paul that Jesus will end His own reign at the consummation and subject both Himself and His completed and perfected kingdom back to His Father.

Blessings,

Andy

#4

Thank you.

Do you (or does anyoner here) know if it’s true that the LXX renders EX. 15:18 AS “The Lord reigns unto thr age of the age AND BERYOND”?

“Forever and ever AND BEYOND” maskes no sense, and I’m wondering how similar the Greek phrase the LXX translaters added “AND BEYOND” to here in Ex. 15:18 (according to Jamieson Fawsett and Brown) is to the phrases the KJV translators rendered as “forever and ever.”

Does anyone know?

P.S. If anyone could shed light on the originsl Hebrew phrase (would I would assume is more than the simple “ha olam” if there’s any justification for the LXX translation), I’d be interested in that too.

#5

Greetings …

15:8 και δια πνευματος του θυμου σου διεστη το υδωρ επαγη ωσει τειχος τα υδατα επαγη τα κυματα εν μεσω της θαλασσης

this is the LXX

18 Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.

From Orthodox Jewish bible

 When people heard, they were scared;
    Philistines writhed and trembled;
Yes, even the head men in Edom were shaken,
    and the big bosses in Moab.
Everybody in Canaan
    panicked and fell faint.
Dread and terror
    sent them reeling.
Before your brandished right arm
    they were struck dumb like a stone,
Until your people crossed over and entered, O God,
    until the people you made crossed over and entered.
You brought them and planted them
    on the mountain of your heritage,
The place where you live,
    the place you made,
Your sanctuary, Master,
    that you established with your own hands.
Let God rule
    forever, for eternity!

       Context provided from The Message ...

 18 Yahweh will reign as king forever and ever.   From Lexham translation

יְהוָ֥ה ׀ יִמְלֹ֖ךְ לְעֹלָ֥ם וָעֶֽד׃ From Westminister Leningrad Codex

   I cannot access much other useful information .. but I thought this might help some ...   :wink:  :wink:
#6

Greetings …

[breslov.com/ref/Exodus15.htm](http://www.breslov.com/ref/Exodus15.htm)

  this link will give you Massoretic, Hebrew, Aramaic, JPS, Kaplan

:slight_smile: 

 In this song of Moses and Miriam, the children of Israel celebrate the fact that the Lord has just led them through the Red Sea and has utterly destroyed many of the pursuing Egyptians. They are free. Safely delivered from their bondage, the people break out into a song of praise, accompanied with dancing and the playing of musical instruments. This spontaneous act of worship, and its spirit of thanksgiving, reflects the gratitude of the children of Israel for their safe passage from slavery to freedom.

       “The prophet Miriam.” While known primarily for her role as the sister of Moses and Aaron, Miriam is designated with the title of “prophet” in this song. Miriam is the first woman to be called a prophet, affirming God’s promise that God’s spirit would be poured out on all flesh, male and female (Joel 2:28). God sets all people free.

      from here ... [theafricanamericanlectionary ... sp?LRID=62](http://www.theafricanamericanlectionary.org/PopupLectionaryReading.asp?LRID=62)

    15:18	God will reign forever and ever.

bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?A … CHAPTER=15

      So Rabbi Eliezer interprets the Torah's description of Israel's song to say that they did not merely affirm Moses' song with a refrain, but repeated his words themselves. Each individual Jew internalized Moses' words, so that they became the expression of his own understanding and feelings. The very same words assumed hundreds of thousands of nuances of meaning, as they were absorbed by each of the minds, and articulated by each of the mouths, of the people of Israel.

      18. The Lord will reign to all eternity	 	יח. יְ־הֹוָ־ה יִמְלֹךְ לְעֹלָם וָעֶד:

to all eternity: Heb. לְעֹלָם וָעֶד. [This is] an expression of eternity, and the “vav” in it is part of the root. Therefore, it is punctuated with a “pattach.” But in “and I am He Who knows, and * a witness וָעֵד” (Jer. 29:23), in which the “vav” is a prefix, it is punctuated with a “kamatz.”

          [chabad.org/parshah/torahread ... rashi=true](http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=15562&p=4&showrashi=true)

[18] In the future, when they will be resurrected, Moses and the generation of the Exodus will again sing this song to God: As we have noted, at the Splitting of the Sea, transcendent Divinity was revealed and the limitations of time and space were temporarily suspended. The Song of the Sea therefore became also the Song of the Future. This underscores the timelessness of the Splitting of the Sea, an event that we experience every day as an integral part of our daily exodus from our spiritual Egypts.

We can access this timelessness by rising above our self-orientation and self-awareness, losing ourselves in God. Like God, we then transcend time: past, present, and future converge and we experience the ecstatic, Divine rapture of the Song of the Sea as a contemporary event.

      [chabad.org/parshah/article_c ... sights.htm](http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/826007/jewish/Chassidic-Insights.htm)*
#7

Thank you.

So is there any justification for the translation “unto the age of the age, AND BEYOND” (and is that how the LXX renders it)?

#8

Greetings :smiley:

Actually my initial response  was rofl....  ( please excuse this IF it annoys you )
    Your question is really good challenge for anyone !
  My laughter was concerning the Whole field of justification for a myriad of translations ...

   I prefer to read different resources which are available to me 
     then I attempt to understand the Biblical text within my Theological framework 

   You could also wait until someone else here posts another comment too ...

    I will guess that "and beyond" is simply trying to emphasize the forever and ever 
      as the Amplified bible translation attempts to do ...

OR
The date of the 3rd century BCE, given in the legend, is confirmed (for the Torah translation) by a number of factors, including the Greek being representative of early Koine, citations beginning as early as the 2nd century BCE, and early manuscripts datable to the 2nd century.[13]
After the Torah, other books were translated over the next two to three centuries. It is not altogether clear which was translated when, or where; some may even have been translated twice, into different versions, and then revised.[14] The quality and style of the different translators also varied considerably from book to book, from the literal to paraphrasing to interpretative.
As you notice — from the literal to paraphrasing to interpretative
Thus the original writers might have had some theological view they wished to support or emphasize
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
read more in this article …
What was perhaps most significant for the LXX, as distinct from other Greek versions, was that the LXX began to lose Jewish sanction after differences between it and contemporary Hebrew scriptures were discovered (see above). Even Greek-speaking Jews tended less to the LXX, preferring other Jewish versions in Greek, such as that of the 2nd century Aquila translation, which seemed to be more concordant with contemporary Hebrew texts.[18]

        Thus there is a potential the "beyond" attempted to follow the below quote -----

In the Early Christian Church, the presumed fact was that the Septuagint was translated by Jews before the era of Christ, and that the Septuagint at certain places gives itself more to a christological interpretation than (say, 2nd century) Hebrew texts, was taken as evidence, that “Jews” had changed the Hebrew text in a way that made them less christological. For example Irenaeus concerning Isaiah 7:14: The Septuagint clearly writes of a virgin that shall conceive. While the Hebrew text was, according to Irenaeus, at that time interpreted by Theodotion and Aquila (both proselytes of the Jewish faith) as a young woman that shall conceive. And, according to Irenaeus, the Ebionites used this to claim that Joseph was the (biological) father of Jesus: From Irenaeus’ point of view that was pure heresy, facilitated by (late) anti-Christian alterations of the scripture in Hebrew, as evident by the older, pre-Christian, Septuagint.[32]

     p.s.  myriad of ideas ..  justification ...  
           I hold to a Egalitarian view rather than the traditional Hierarchical view 
         example -- the husband is NOT the boss of the wife in any manner 
             Women can be the head pastor as well..    :laughing: 
           this view is also embedded within my view of the Trinity as well...   <img src="/uploads/default/original/1X/15680453330e74f929b585a237613f0bdf61e069.gif" width="15" height="17" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"/>  <img src="/uploads/default/original/1X/15680453330e74f929b585a237613f0bdf61e069.gif" width="15" height="17" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"/> 
          one of my "justifications" is based upon the reciprocal pronoun ἀλλήλους along with its variations

 

           all the best !
#9

I think the answer is in the context. What ends is that all that is false, as atested to by the fact that Jesus reigns till “all enemies” (all that is false) is restored to true. At that point, there will be no end to the rule of perfection, which is consistent with Jesus’ title as the Prince of Peace.

#10

Perhaps…His reign will end, but his kingdom shall not. Queen Elizabeth might be the current ruler of the United Kingdom, but her predecessors rule have ended, but their kingdom has not ended.

#11

Here is a thought…what if the reign of Christ has ended, already? What if people claiming Christ are false because His reign ended about two millennium ago and they desperately claim Him still has King when that rule has ended but His Kingdom remains under the care of another and I am not saying it is another ‘man’ but exactly what Scripture says now reigns. :wink:

#12

Here’s a thought: wouldn’t it be nice if the trolls and sophists would stay away from serious discussion or at least not pretend to be something they are not?

Just a thought.

#13

I am not a troll, LBY. Look at my posts in this forum 1000+, and then maybe read them some day, you might learn something. If I was a troll, I would have been banned a long time ago.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has katargeō (made obsolete) all dominion, authority and power.

If you are true Christian Universalist, you should already know this:

Ephesians 1:18-22
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

So are you ready for this, the end has already come according to Ephesians because there is no power greater than in Him and He has already made obsolete all dominion, authority and power. How do we know that the end has already come? Because Christ has already given the Kingdom to God the Father now sits on His right hand in submission to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.”Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

I’ll let you stew over you neglect and perhaps you may want to learn, you don’t know everything and not every Christian Universalist believes as you think to be true that is, what* you believe* to be true.

So who is that other but The Father Himself.

#14

Not all trolls are banned. I’ve seen some, especially those who have an agenda they wish to impart and are slick at manipulating conversations, remain on some boards for months. And actually, it was more from the content of other of your posts than those here that prompted my response.

But you know as well as I that I have never made claims that I know everything or that others do or should believe as I do. On the other hand if your, my or anyone else’s theology seems essentially correct and can be supported by reasonable arguments, why would we not want to share it and test it by bouncing it off others? Isn’t this part of the purpose of these boards? Who ever heard of someone who held beliefs he actually didn’t believe were true? Actually I feel safe in stating that almost no other Christian Universalists share my beliefs. My view is both unique and seems to be at enmity on several points with other CUs.

On the other hand, no one–traditionalist or universalist–has ever delivered a well reasoned rebuttal to what I believe, either. Not sure why.

Okay. Consider me to be properly stewing.

#15

I thought I had answered this, Michael, but I can’t find my answer. So here is as close to a word for word translation, as seems possible, of Exodus 15:18.

κυριος-----βασιλευων τον αιωνα και επ----αιωνα και ετι
The Lord reigning-----the age----and upon age—and yet

One might translate it as:

The Lord is reigning for age upon age and yet [more].

or

The Lord is reigning for the [present] age and in [the coming] age, and yet [more ages].

By the way, does the Greek look like Greek characters or gobbeldy-gook?
I’m not sure everyone has the Greek font I used.

#16

Then maybe you should address it in that particular thread and not hijack this one,* or troll elsewhere*. :laughing:

Well, it probably is because when they disagree with you, or say something you find ‘offensive’ you respond like you have been to me, with contempt, ad hominems and the like.

Take care LBY.

#17

:exclamation: LIKE :exclamation:

#18

The Greek looks like Greek (and I thank you.)

#19

I thought part of the reason for God sending us Jesus, his Son who became human, was because in our sinful state we could not stand to view the purity of God the Father. In the OT, God is the Burning Bush, hidden in the Ark, communicates via angels (to Lot) and only Moses goes up the mountain for the Ten Commandments. There are probably more incidents, I need to reread the OT.

When Jesus has completed his salvation of all peoples and destroyed death which entered the world because of sin, people will be able to be in the Presence of God the Father. Therefore, Jesus can turn the Kingdom over to the Father. But by this point, it is probably the differernce that makes no difference as Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are One. By then, we might be able to understand this Mystery. In fact some of us may have been walking with the Father for a while before it is “official”.

I also think words are sometimes awkward tools for describing things that occur either outside of time or in a different type of time than we now understand. I am with C.S. Lewis, we will be going “further up and further in,” and growing in understanding. I don’t think Heaven is static and unchanging.

s

#20

Let’s keep it clean guys. hurling accusations about is not tolerated well here.