Rev 20:14 mentions death and hades being destroyed in the Lake of Fire, along with those whose names are not in the book of life. It seems illogical to assume that death is destroyed but people are not destroyed. The book of life surely means you have been granted ‘life’. The opposite of ‘life’ is destruction: going out of existence/not being alive anymore. IF only there was one more verse that explained that everything thrown into the Lake was renewed and restored e.g death was filled with life- hence ‘no death’ (in other words a third phase of resurrections). By being thrown into the Lake of Fire they take part in the ‘second death’ and so if they are going to be saved, they need to be resurrected again, but a third lot of resurrections isn’t mentioned! It sounds so final for those people thrown in. IF they were going to receive life eventually, why aren’t their names in the Lamb’s book of life? This seems very bleak to me. 
Another interesting point is that the word “name” is not in the Greek text of Rev. 20:15; rather, it is the word “ti’s” which can be translated as “whatever”. In other words, it can be translated so that it is not “people” who are cast into the lake of fire, but works, things done that are not written in the book of life. This mirrors the concept of “death and Hades” (inannimate realities, not people) being cast into the lake of fire. And of course this mirrors Paul’s concept of judgment in 1 Cor. 3: 11-13.
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
So all people are being judged and “whatever” is not written in the book of life is burnt up.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and **whatever **was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
In like manner, 21:8 can be translated as:
"But as for cowardness, faithlessness, impurity, murder, fornication, sorcerery, idolatry, and all falsehood, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
To me this fits much better with the concept of judgment being meant to deliver us from evil, not meant to lock us into evil! I believe judgment is meant to deliver us all from the evil “within ourselves”, not evil “others”!
Even 21:7 can be translated as a reference to Jesus. Instead of it being “conquerers” who inherit all, it is Jesus, the one who conquered “death and hades” who inherits all.
“He who overcomes (Jesus) shall inherit all and I will be his God and he shall be my son!”
Hallelujah! Jesus is Lord and Savior of All!
It is also the case, Sherman, that “τις” could be translated as “whoever”. But I think the best translation is “anyone” as many modern translations render it.
However the bottom line is :
This implies that some of these people (in the second resurrection) WILL be found written in the Book of Life. Otherwise John would have written that all of them would be cast into the Lake of fire.
All of this, it seems will happen AFTER those in the first resurrection are brought back to life. (See verses 4-6)
Well, there will be a second phase, as I pointed out in the post above, and as you seem to point out. And probably the majority in the second resurrection will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But why presume that they will be annihilated there? What would be the purpose of God bringing them back to life—only to annihilate them?
Thus there will be no need of a third phase, for the lost will have been raised in the second resurrection. The prodigal son’s father said, “My son was lost and is found—was dead and is now alive.” The lost in the Lake of Fire can also be found and brought into spiritual life. Consider the following regarding the New Jerusalem, from the next chapter:
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. (Rev 21:22-26)
The gates will not be shut to keep anyone out. But who would there be to keep out anyway, if they are all annihilated in the Lake of Fire?
I suggest that the gates are kept open to welcome those in the Lake of Fire when they repent and submit to the authority of Christ. Then they may enter, for they will have met the requirements in the same way that we all have to meet them.
It doesn’t seem illogical to me. For “death” is not a sentient being as a person is. “Death will be destroyed” means only that there will be no more death. That is, there will be only life. Death is a bad thing. So is hatred and rebellion. Both of these and all other forms of evil will be destroyed in those who go to the Lake of Fire. Just as destruction of death is GOOD, so will destruction of evil be GOOD.
Often man thinks things will be better by destroying his enemy in war. But it doesn’t work. War results only in enormous suffering on both sides.
Our wise God destroys His enemies by bringing them over to His side! What a victory that is! If, in order to eliminate evil from the universe, God had to annihilate His enemies, that would suggest a partial loss in the war against evil. But bringing his enemies into submission demonstrates a COMPLETE victory!
It’s this way even among human wars. Which would be a greater victory for the winning army—to annihilate the enemy by destroying every individual with a huge nuclear bomb? Or by bringing all the people in the enemy country under the authority of the victorious country?
I don’t think you caught my point. Tis is a pronoun and can reference people or things. If it is good works that are recorded in the book of life, then anything that is not “good” will be thrown into the lake of fire and burned up. All people shall be judged and all works that are not written in the book of life shall be burned up. It is a vision of what Paul speaks of in 1 Cor. 3. Thus I think that “whatever” is the best translation in 20:15.
Unfortunately most, if not all, English translations it as if God is separating out the saved from the unsaved, those whose “names” are written in the book of live vs. those whose “names” are not written in the book of life. Some translations even add the word “names” to the passage. I don’t see God separating out the saved from the unsaved, but all are judged and the works (wood, hay, and stubble) that is not lasting, written in the book of life, shall be burned up in the lake of fire.
Sherman, thank you for your very interesting reply. 
I looked at Rev 20:15, in the lexicon, and it can mean ‘anything’- but…if you compare that verse with Daniel 12:1, which uses similar wording, it is clear it is persons being referred to. See also Psalm 69:28. Rev 20:12 says book***s*** were opened, and so it seems to be the case that some of the books record works whereas the book of life is the book that determines if you suffer the second death. Also, Jesus talks about the goats going off into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels, which is the Lake of Fire. Your point about Rev 21:8 makes much sense and would have allayed much of my fears, if it didn’t mention ‘persons’ elsewhere, as I have just highlighted.
Paidion- thank you for your replies. You say there is no need for a ‘third phase’ of resurrections, but the Lake of Fire is the second death, so those who are going to be thrown into it or as John puts it those who the second death has ‘power over’, are going to die again and so will need to be brought back to life again. The Apostle John explains that those in Christ (His bride) will take part in the first resurrection, and the second death (lake of fire) has no power over them: Rev 20:6. The rest of the dead are resurrected later and as you say Paidion, the wording implies that some of these ones are found in the book of life. Maybe these are the ones who are outside the City and given the chance to repent and go through the gates etc. Daniel 12:2 seems to support this idea. 
Rev 20:14 mentions death and hades being destroyed in the Lake of Fire, along with those whose names are not in the book of life. It seems illogical to assume that death is destroyed but people are not destroyed. The book of life surely means you have been granted ‘life’. The opposite of ‘life’ is destruction: going out of existence/not being alive anymore
But Catherine if death is destroyed , which BTW is specifically stated then if there is no more death , why should folks be killed in the LOF. Remember there is no more death and folks go into the LOF after death is destroyed therefore they seem to go in for a different reason. Then we finally come to Rev 22.17 where whosoever is invited to drink from the water of life.
What if the basic assumptions about the ‘life’ you mention are wrong? IF they are then or your further extrapolations drawn from such might also be questionable. ??
Hi Steve-good point. This is what I’m trying to determine. 
Why is the LofF called ‘the second death’?
Hi Davo. Yes. That’s true. Even though I don’t understand these things and there may be much truth in your position, (which would clear up a lot of this stuff), I am comforted by these things:
‘sinners’ are clearly still present outside the New Jerusalem ( this is after the New Heavens and New earth).
The gates of the City are always open.
The invitation to come and drink must be aimed at these ‘sinners’ so Jesus’ invitation is ongoing.
Jesus is making all things new.
If Jesus can rehabilitate the hardest sinners- He will most certainly do so and hence I remain a hopeful URist. 
Hi Catherine…
Yes, as opposed to a post mortem scenario “the new creation” in view tells me this was all about covenant exchange… that which was becoming obsolete, growing old and ready to pass away Heb 8:13; 2Cor 3:11 (7-10); 1Jn 2:8].
This is the only feasible rationale for “sinners” still being present in the new creation. And IF this be the case then all those other presuppositions start to fall one by one… and then the real problems begin with the realisation of other options arising that run counter to accepted orthodoxy. 
Hi Steve-good point. This is what I’m trying to determine. Why is the LofF called ‘the second death’?
Possibly because the first death which is physical death was already destroyed. I think the linkage to hades indicates that when death and HADES are together destroyed , then there is no more physical death. So the lake of fire is the second death in that it destroys our sin nature or our spiritual death which is the second kind of death. That clears the pathway for Rev 22.17
What is significant to note though is that Dan.12.1 specifically has the word “people” ( Hebrew - am) in it, and Rev.20:15 does Not have the word people in it. And Ps.69.28, blotted out of the book of the living, is talking about death, not the 2nd death, but a person physically dying.
Also note that everyone is judged according to what is written in the “books”, and everything that is not written in the “book of life” is cast into the the lake of fire (possibly/likely the Dead Sea). In other words, our whole life shall be judged, and only the things/works that bring life will remain; everything else will be disposed of, done away with. Judgment is not based on what Jesus did, God’s grace, love, and forgiveness; it is not based on our faith in God, but on how we actually live. “If” the passage was talking about separating the saved from the unsaved, then it seems to me it would not be based on “works”.
Also note that the Mt.25 passage would have better been translated the shepherd separating the “kids, baby goats, eriphos” from the “flock, probaton”. It is not a separation of “kind” but a separation of “maturity”. And again, this passage is based on “works”, specifically how socially mature a person is and whether or not they take care of the needs of others. And the work translated “punishment”, kolasis, would be better translated as “chastizement”, punishment with a positive purpose, punishment meant to bring about a positive change in the ones being punished. The purpose of punishment rooted in the righteous love of God is deliverance from evil, not to lock one into evil.
The concept of Hell has so long been read, even interpreted “into” these passages that it is very difficult to understand them differently. It’s as if people read these passages through red-tinted glasses. If there was a Hell, it sure seems to me that it would have been specifically and repeatedly named and warned of; but it isn’t. Not once is “Hell” even named in scripture as a warning for man. The only word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture that conveys a similar meaning as our English word “Hell” is the Greek word “Tartarus”, the hellish realm of Hades in Greek mythology. And Tartarus is only used once in scripture, in 1 Peter, which states that the angels that sinned are “held in Tartarus” until judgment or in judgment. “IF” these “angels that sinned” are the demonic forces that plague humanity today, then their “Tartarus” is our “Present Evil Age” (Gal.1.4).
But, I’m getting off topic, sorry. The more I ponder Rev. 20, the more it seems to me that it is a picture of God triumphing over and bringing an end to all evil, to murder, fornication, idolatry, etc., of Him through judgment purifying us, delivering us from evil, setting us free to participate in the kingdom of God. Sin that I’ve committed, bondages that I’ve been under shall be burnt up and I’ll be delivered, freed to worship God with all my being. Hallelujah!
Through this “second death” we die to ourselves and are freed to live for God!
That’s a very interesting way to look at it, Steve. I’ll have to ponder that – thanks!
At present, my “answer” to this would be that we have to define death. Paidion’s definition is that when a person dies, he ceases to exist until he is resurrected (hopefully I’m accurate in this). As I think about this topic (pretty much ever since I first read what he had to say, but I’ve read other authors on this as well who agree with him), I am growing more and more to feel that this is mistaken. Not because of anything Don has said, but because of my own ruminations on it.
Jesus said of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, “He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live unto Him.” I’m sure Don’s aware of this and has a good answer for it. For me though, this and other passages and concepts seem to say to me that when we die physically, our spirits do go, consciously and immediately, to be with the Lord.
That’s not to say there is no resurrection of the flesh. I firmly believe that Jesus was raised bodily and that we all will also be bodily raised – as a seed (our present flesh) planted in the ground grows into a plant which IS the seed, but then again, is NOT the seed. Just as an example, how much does an oak tree resemble an acorn? Yet the oak tree is, in a very real sense, IN the acorn until that seed falls into the ground and dies. Even so, our earthly bodies have one “presence” and our heavenly bodies have another “presence.” I say “presence” because while the word is “glory,” our present understanding of the meaning of that word is probably somewhat different from what it meant in the Greek. I won’t try to prove that here, but rather just give an example. An apple tree as it goes through the seasons of the year; winter with its intricately sculptural branches, spring with the mass of exultant, fragrant blossoms, summer as its pregnant “belly” enlarges with a myriad of ripening fruit hidden by its protective foliage, fall with its bounty of crisp, tart/sweet fruit; through these manifestations expresses fully who/what it is. This is its glory. So our earthly bodies express our earthly “glory,” whether that glory be good or bad (or a combination more likely), and our heavenly bodies have a different, higher glory. BUT they are both bodies, and to be fully what we are, we need them.
That said, I believe that scripture does lean toward a consciousness for humans after death and prior to the resurrection. That’s where I am now, and it’s certainly not saying I’ll never be persuaded to change my mind on the topic. BUT it’s very important in this question because it affects the biblical definition of “death.”
Writing this, I begin to wonder . . . is it possible that death and the grave are thrown into the LoF in the persons of those whose names aren’t found written in the BoL? I think Steve may have hinted at this. I have never swum in a lake that I couldn’t walk or climb out of. There doubtless are some, but the ability to get out of the lake at its shore is pretty much a “norm” for lakes. It might be interesting to study that word “Lake” or whatever it is . . . okay, here it is in Strongs:
Here is “sea” in Thayer’s (which had a slightly longer definition, but essentially the same as Strongs:
G251 (mentioned at the end of this def) means “salt.” I don’t know how significant this is. Paidion would better be able to enlarge on this than I would, or [tag]JasonPratt[/tag]. For most of us, the idea of a salt-water body includes massiveness. Most salt-water bodies are vast, or are connected to vast bodies of salt-water. I don’t know how large the Dead Sea is, and one of our members has a compelling theory that the Dead Sea IS the model for the LoF, and connects this to the genuine or supposed healing properties of that body of water.
It does seem to me though, that IF you take the definition of death not as being non-existent, but rather as being in some way separate (or seemingly separate from the individual’s pov) from God, then the second death in the LoF would mean that the person not found written in the BoL is no more non-existent than s/he was after the first death – but rather lacking the genuine and eternal life that IS knowing God. I don’t know that we are alive in any spiritual sense except to the extent that we are alive in Him. In that way, grace is in process of conquering sin. The seed of life has been sewn in those who believe.
In those who do not believe, perhaps it has been sown but has thus far failed to germinate. Since they have already gone through judgment at the throne of Christ, I suppose it’s reasonable to suppose that that seed has been sown. I don’t know whether it has much significance to the Middle Eastern apocalypse of John, but here in the west-midwest, there are pine trees that will not germinate unless their seeds have gone through a fire. We’ve prevented fires for so long that some of the trees in the foothills-plains of western South Dakota were dying and not regenerating from their seeds. Unless they went through a fire, they could not be released from their dormant state. I’m a big believer in what GMac calls the “book of nature.” I have no idea whether middle eastern people of the first century would have known this, or whether they’d even have trees with this need in that region, but I have to think that a seed that can’t germinate until it has gone through the fire is an amazing picture.
For those of us who believe, death to this world is death to the flesh. We encounter that (or its beginning) when we first believe. We pre-figure it in baptism. As we lean on the “everlasting arms” of grace rather than trusting to our own righteousness, we incrementally experience it in this life. When our bodies die, we shed those primal instinctual desires that often lead us to sin. Experiencing this death, or at least beginning to experience it in this life is a great blessing. (Blessed are they which have not seen and yet believe.) We are blessed; we do not bless ourselves, but God has blessed us to believe in this life. We’re a step ahead and thus are responsible to rescue those who still do not see – whether we do that in this life or the one to come.
I see the Spirit and the Bride calling out, “COME” as a hint at that ministry of reconciliation which continues (I believe) into the age(s) yet to come. That Lake of Fire (so experienced by the still-rebellious) to us may be a Sea of Crystal, delicate and delightful to traverse. Will it be our high privilege and heavenly joy to rescue the dying and to lead the perishing through it, to the Water of Life of which all who still thirst may drink? I hesitate to claim for ourselves such a great and wonderful honor, but scripture does seem to me to point in this direction.
What a joy it would be to be counted amongst those prepared and equipped and ready to be sent out to rescue our beloved brothers and sisters, fathers, mothers & children who are still stumbling toward destruction, and lead them to the fountain of the Water of Life (whom I believe to be Jesus Himself). Does the ministry of reconciliation extend beyond the grave? I believe it does, as the Spirit and the Bride continue to say, “Come!”
In the Garden, the day he ate the fruit, Adam died. The Adam that walked with God was dead and in his place was an impostor Adam. The original Adam could not be found. He was lost. The impostor Adam preferred to hide from God and live as a prisoner in a nonexistent world, in his mind of illusions and lies.
The lost Adam was excluded from the Tree of Life by fire lest he eat and live forever in his sad state.
We are born in Adam’s image, every one of us lost. We are beset and imprisoned by the nature of our impostor.
Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. Jesus came to set the captives free.
The way back to the Tree of Life passes through fire where the impostor and his illusions die. The first death produced the impostor, the second death removes the impostor and reveals the true child whose name is, and has been written in the Book of Life since before time.
“If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
In terms of biblical parlance, in Israel’s old covenant story “death” equates to EXILE. The “first” (though unstated) death was Adam’s/Israel’s EXILE from God’s presence, i.e., the Garden or the Land.
Redemption was the restoration of covenant relationship i.e., “resurrection”. Such corporate or national resurrection was promised in Israel’s story through the prophets in texts like Ezek 37:1-14; Hos 6:1-2, again this was in terms of covenant renewal, as per Jer 31:31-34; Ezek 36:26-27.
The new covenant in Christ WAS Israel’s covenant renewal (resurrection). So, in the corporate sense there was NO RESURRECTION left apart from “in Christ”. Thus any EXILE relative to this WAS the “second” death with no covenantal resurrection beyond it… this WAS likewise called ‘the lake of fire’ – none other than the Roman-Jewish wars of AD66-70; the culmination of which being Jerusalem’s fiery end, the conflagration where the Temple became a ‘lake of fire’ where every vestige of their old covenant world (Temple, temple worship, priesthood, sacrifices, etc, etc) ALL came crashing down.
Left in its historical and biblical setting and NOT dragged beyond it, Israel’s “second death/lake of fire” makes sense being understood as the extinguishments of old covenant life as they applied there and then. What people mostly seem to have trouble with is, this view robs US of our “my fears” (your words) in being connected somehow (post mortem) with it… I should actually think this a good thing. 
I need not provide an answer since the story in Matthew 22 explains:
23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question,
24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up children for his brother.’
25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother.
26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh.
27 After them all, the woman died.
28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”
29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
In case someone does not see the explanation in this passage, I ask you to consider:
- Jesus was addressing the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection from the dead.
- Jesus stated that what He was about to say concerned the resurrection from the dead (vs 31).
- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead. If Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and if there were no resurrection, He would be the God of the dead rather than of the living. But since they will be raised to life, He is the God of the living.
- Jesus’ answer silenced the Sadducees (vs 34)
Incidentally, once when I was visiting a Roman Catholic priest, he was explaining the importance of praying to Mary and the saints. I asked him whether he prayed to his dead parents, or at least talked to them. He replied with the words, “Of course I do! God is not God of the dead, but of the living!”
There is a reason that God forbade attempting to communicate with the dead (recorded in the Old Testament). Here is what I think. First of all, it is impossible to communicate with them since they are dead. But if we believe that we can, then there will always be a demon or two who will impersonate the dead person, and therefore influence us. I can offer two true stories as examples of demonic impersonation of the dead. If anyone is interested, I will share these stories. (I think I have shared them previously on some other thread).
There is a reason that God forbade attempting to communicate with the dead (recorded in the Old Testament). Here is what I think. First of all, it is impossible to communicate with them since they are dead.
I think something changed after Christ was resurrected concerning this issue. In 2 Cor 12.3 Paul talks about a particular condition which only had two possibilities, being in the body or being out of the body. So dwelling in our physical body was not the only condition that could exist.
“And i know such a man whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows, how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words.”
Hi guys. Great replies.
[tag]davo[/tag]- you said: ‘‘This is the only feasible rationale for “sinners” still being present in the new creation.’’ For me there is another feasible rationale and that is the reconciliation of the whole of creation which is still ongoing.
[tag]steve7150[/tag] Good points about the second death. Thank you.
[tag]Sherman[/tag]- great points again. I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say: ‘The purpose of punishment rooted in the righteous love of God is deliverance from evil, not to lock one into evil.’’
I’ve been doing really well the last few months in terms of focusing on God’s goodness and His ability to save/rehabilitate the ‘lost’. For some reason, my thinking slot back into it’s old way, the other day, and I felt discouraged and doubted UR, but I’ve soon got back on track with all your help.
[tag]Cindy Skillman[/tag]- A great reply Cindy. I too used to believe like Paidion that the dead are no longer alive/conscious, but recently I’ve come to think that maybe they were (assuming that people may be resurrected to be with Christ since His return to heaven??) alive in spirit form. Two things make me think this could be the case: the account of Samuel being brought up by the medium. My Bible reading was that very story today. It struck me how Samuel is not lying when talking to Saul. He moans that he has been brought up. It seems God either allowed Samuel to be resurrected or his spirit to be brought to them. I am in no doubt this is the real Samuel and not a lying spirit. Also the story of the richman and Lazarus has always struck me as evidence for post mortem consciousness. I just can’t see how Jesus would tell a story about something that wasn’t true. Of course their comfort and discomfort are exaggerated for the sake of the point Jesus is making, but I can’t get my head around Jesus using something that wasn’t true to teach a lesson. I may be wrong. I don’t really fuss over it. Whether we are resurrected immediately or later won’t seem any different to us I don’t suppose. It will only seem like a second I’m sure. I love your points about the LofF and the privilege of being part of those who help the lost to be brought home. Beautiful points to consider.
I shall reply to the other posts later.