The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Not in the book of life leads to the Lake of Fire.

:unamused: Be fair now. What people mostly have trouble with, is that the theory doesn’t cover as much of the data as the post-mortem interpretation. There wasn’t a general resurrection in 70CE and death and hades definitely weren’t sent into exile or burned up in a Temple fire, nor many other prophecies about and ‘around’ the final judgment fulfilled. Not all people were salted by the unquenchable fire of Jerusalem burning, leading to peace with one another, and it caused (and still causes) a LOT of little children to stumble, not the final sheep to be found and brought back (yet). More than the unmerciful were thrown to the tormentors, and their torment was not something that God would put to an end once they learned to pay the mercy they themselves owed. Nor (to say the least) was Jerusalem saved at the last moment by Jesus / YHWH returning to put down the assaulting armies in any way form or fashion (much less in a quite overtly militant way).

It’s literally like someone in 40CE arguing that since Sodom was already destroyed, and Jerusalem itself previously, the people who expect Jerusalem to be overthrown by fire and armies again sometime in the generation after Jesus are mostly refusing to be robbed of their (implictly only irrational) fears. Partial fulfillments point ahead to full fulfillments later. No one denies Jesus was predicting the fall of Jerusalem. But He (and others He inspired) were predicting a lot more than that, too.

I would go so far to say that if I came to believe the eschaton prophecies only referred to the fall of Jerusalem, then I might have to reject Biblical testimony to universal salvation, or at best think the scriptural witness, including Jesus by report, was being actually schizophrenic in their (and His) testimony about that.

Re temporarily not existing after death – I’m okay with the idea of tunneling forward to the resurrection, so to speak, since that keeps actual continuity of existence, even though to the people living meanwhile the ones who have died aren’t there anymore.

However, I’m not sure even that concept wouldn’t require abandoning Christ’s evangelism of hades, “today you will be with Me in paradise”, and the restoration of anyone to life (by Jesus or a prophet/apostle) before their resurrection.

The Transfiguration would work okay I guess, with Moses and Elijah back-projecting ‘after’ their resurrection, so to speak. Maybe pre-res raisings would work if the spirits tunneled forward to that point (called there by God of course) instead of to one of the actual Res events (yet). There may be similar ‘quantum’ workarounds for the other points.

I’m not at all a fan of consigning the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to total fictionality: I do recognize there are parabolic details to it – but even where fictional the other parables are set in ‘real’ if sometimes implausible settings. The sheep and the goats aren’t literally sheep and goats either, but the judgment is real – even if the judgment only referred to the fall of Jerusalem! (Though it doesn’t, or there wouldn’t be a reference to the baby goats being sent into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Nor did Jesus arrive to judge His flock including accepting people who are surprised to learn they’ve been serving Him faithfully and are now being accepted into eonian life and other rewards prepared for them.)

Re the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire – sure, I think it’s pretty clearly a type or ‘living metaphor’ for it, so to speak. But not the other way around, and not fully so either. The basin before the sacrificial throne in the Temple is, too, and not exhaustively so either (though importantly so). Ditto Sodom (in some very limited ways) and the fall of Jerusalem (in very limited ditto) and any burning garbage dumping in Ge-hinnom. Even if the area around Edom, or the whole earth itself, became a molten wasteland (temporarily, as prophesied in various places), I’d still only regard those as quite limited living metaphors for the LoF.

I think it’s much better, on a full accounting of the data, to regard the LoF (and related Gehenna language involving eonian unquenchable fire) as the Holy Spirit in one or more related modes of operation. We all get to be salted/baptized by the Son in the Spirit-even-fire, which is the best of things and leads to us being at peace with one another when we accept the salting in our hearts/selves. To the extent that we insist on clinging to the thorns and thistles in our souls, or to the stubble with which we’ve built on Christ (Who is the only Logos/foundation upon which anyone can build anything, even rebels against God), we’re going to naturally suffer as a result, but only to that proportion, no further (though by the same token it could be very extreme, and/or last into the eons, even the eons of the eons) and not permanently – because God is going to succeed sooner or later not only in getting us clean of our sins but in leading us to reject our sins, slake our thirst, wash ourselves clean, and so obtain permission to enter into the healing and life of God’s own life shared with us.

This by the way is another reason why I’m against the notion of reducing Gehenna/LoF and related language to only meaning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Roman armies back in 70. In my reckoning it would be no less than explaining that something apparently related intimately to God Most High Himself is only the tragic suffering and murder of a city long ago which we should put behind us.

Like that street preacher who got unjustly sentenced to crucifixion outside Jerusalem back in, what was it, 30 or 33, something like that? That’s over and done with now, we’re past it, no reason to expect anything more there. Did he prophecy the destruction of Jerusalem? No reason to pay any more attention to that; people who cling to what he said on the matter are only in love with their own irrational fears. Some people even cling so hard as to think he rose from the grave, ha! – or was divine somehow, even God Most High somehow! Okay, he also predicted he himself would die on a cross, though with what he was saying about the destruction of the Temple that was hardly a big prediction, but no reason to expect anything more from what he said now: he died on the cross and that’s over. Hey, didn’t he even compare himself to the Temple?! Some of his disciples even teach he meant that the Temple being torn down referred to his own death! So really, once he died, he fulfilled all the prophecies he gave about the destruction of the Temple, the end. Any more details which don’t fit that can and should be explained away; there are probably creative ways to do so, if we put our minds to it. Wait, didn’t he also say something about his death being the ultimate sacrifice for sin somehow? Well, there’s another reason not to expect God to destroy Jerusalem – if that guy was telling the truth, there is no reason for us to expect God to ever be wrathy about sin again for any reason in any way.

Anyway, it all ends with his death. Nothing beyond that. Resurrection, salvation from sin? That’s just poetic language about people sharing meals commonly with one another while they’re still alive. There are superstitious and irrationally emotional people who believe more than that, but isn’t it better (and certainly less personally bothersome, to many other people anyway) to just explain away anything that might look like evidence otherwise?

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I don’t like it when liberal sceptics try to go that route, and I like it less when actually religious Christians (like NT Wright) try to go that route. I don’t accept his historical preterist arguments for much the same kind of reasons he himself doesn’t accept John Dominic Crossan’s ideas of what Christianity ‘really’ and ‘only’ should mean.

Rationally, I don’t think you can draw from that statement of Paul’s the conclusion that “dwelling in our physical body is not the only condition that could exist.” All Paul said was that HE DIDN’T KNOW whether such a man was in the body or out of the body. For all we know, he might have been referring to a belief in his day that one could move out of his body. Even in our day people are said to have “out-of-body experiences.” But does that mean that in having these experiences they had actually gone out of their physical body? I don’t think so. A Christian friend of mine said that in the past when she took LSD, she sometimes rose above her body and looked down upon it.

Davidbo- Thank you for your reply. :slight_smile: I don’t think of Adam as an ‘imposter’ after he sinned. He was what he was: a human who exercised his will to do what he wanted to do. The rest of what you say makes sense. :wink:

Paidion- thank you for your reply. :slight_smile: What do you make of Samuel being ‘brought up’? :wink:

Jason- Great reply. Thank you. :smiley: You addressed some points I was struggling with. I was thinking along your lines, but you worded it much better than I could. :wink:

I think something changed after Christ was resurrected concerning this issue. In 2 Cor 12.3 Paul talks about a particular condition which only had two possibilities, being in the body or being out of the body. So dwelling in our physical body was not the only condition that could exist.

“And i know such a man whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows, how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words.”

Rationally, I don’t think you can draw from that statement of Paul’s the conclusion that “dwelling in our physical body is not the only condition that could exist.” All Paul said was that HE DIDN’T KNOW whether such a man was in the body or out of the body. For all we know, he might have been referring to a belief in his day that one could move out of his body. Even in our day people are said to have “out-of-body experiences.” But does that mean that in having these experiences they had actually gone out of their physical body? I don’t think so. A Christian friend of mine said that in the past when she took LSD, she sometimes rose above her body and looked down upon it.

Yes Paul said he didn’t know but he referenced the two possibilities either in or out of the body. I don’t think he would casually make such a reference to be out of the body if it was not possible. But he made other similar sounding statements elsewhere,
“For i am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to DEPART and be with Christ which is far better. Nevertheless to REMAIN in the flesh is more needful for you.” Phil 1.23 - 24

Here we have a similar statement either remaining in the flesh or departing to be with Christ. What would actually depart? I think his Spirit Man or inner man.

(my bold).
I remember a Jew explaining to me how their view of prophecy was repeated partial fulfilment until the full, absolute fulfilment occurs. not things repeating in a circle more like a spiral.

[size=150]Brilliant post in its entirety Jason - good to have you back posting![/size]

To depart and be with Christ is what will happen to all of us in the resurrection. Paul looked forward to the resurrection. It was his great hope, the only hope for the future. He said, in effect, that if there is no resurrection, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry while we live, for there will be nothing else.

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
(1 Cor 15:52)

Because there is such a deep desire in people to possess an immortal soul or spirit, they even misquote Paul. I’m sure you’ve heard people say that Paul wrote, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” But he didn’t write that at all. He wrote, “It is better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.” If you believe you have an immortal soul, the latter reading won’t make any difference. But I believe it makes all the difference. I understand Paul to say that it is better to be absent from this present mortal body and to be present with the Lord in our future immortal bodies. In the context, he says that if this earthly “tabernacle” (body) is destroyed, we have a house (body) eternal in the heavens. That body eternal in the heavens is the resurrection body. Paul never teaches that we depart this life as disembodied souls or spirits.

The concept of an immortal souls has come into Christendom from Greek philosophers, such as Plato. He also taught transmigration of souls into other bodies. You would be born as a person if you lived a good life, but as an animal if not.

Paul never teaches that we depart this life as disembodied souls or spirits.

I have to disagree, i think he does exactly that. When Paul talks about our resurrected bodies he is crystal clear about it but in these other cases his descriptions are something like, one moment i’m here in the flesh and the next moment i’m with Christ.

However this has nothing to do with an immortal soul, only God can grant immortality as you know.

First notice that when Saul became afraid of the Philistines, he inquired of Yahweh, but Yahweh wouldn’t answer him, and so Saul consulted the medium of Endor. According to the OT, God had commanded his people not to consult mediums or attempt to communicate with the dead. So Saul had disobeyed in this respect. To this day, mediums are consulted in order to communicate with the dead, but it is not the dead they bring up; they have contacted demons who impersonate the dead.

When my maternal grandfather was in his teens, he and a friend went to a medium just for fun. The friend asked to speak to his dead mother. He was astounded when an apparition appeared which looked and talked exactly as his mother. He asked it questions and it answered as only his mother could. Then my grandfather asked to talk to HIS mother. The same thing. An apparition appeared that looked and talked exactly like his mother. The only problem was, my grandfather’s mother had not yet died!

My sister-in-law’s friend (we’ll call her Sarah) was visiting Sarah’s friend (we’ll call her Anne). They were alone in the house for Anne’s parents had gone out. Now Anne’s mother frequently used the ouiji board in order to get directions in her life. So Anne suggested they try asking the ouji board questions, just for fun. Then to their amazement the spirit behind the ouiji board began to answer the question by moving the pointer to the letters. It claimed to be the spirit of a dead person who had lived several centuries ago. It gave its name. They looked it up in a history book, and they found the man’s name! (Although it was written with a modern spelling). The “man” said he had been imprisoned. They asked him why. Then the ouiji board began to bounce all over (which the girls interpreted as anger). Then the spirit asked the girls a question, “Is there still a God?”
No human being would ask this question. A human being might ask, “Is there a God?” but NEVER “Is there still a God?” However, a demon, who was once an angel and had experienced God, but had fallen away and followed Satan, might well ask such a question. For he had never experienced God since his fall, and perhaps wondered whether God still exists.

This is exactly what I believe to be the case with “Samuel” being brought back. I believe it was an evil spirit impersonating Sameul. I know the text calls the spirit “Samuel”, but that in no way proves that it was Samuel. I also heard someone say that Samuel, while he was alive, told Saul that he would never speak to him again, or that Saul would never see his face again. But I have been unable to find that.

Going to heaven at death has nothing to do with an immortal soul? What is it that goes to heaven then? If you never die, but simply “step through a door” into the next life, then your soul never dies. It has to be immortal, doesn’t it?

Going to heaven at death has nothing to do with an immortal soul? What is it that goes to heaven then? If you never die, but simply “step through a door” into the next life, then your soul never dies. It has to be immortal, doesn’t it?

All we know is that only God grants immortality and it appears to be granted at the time of the resurrection. If our human spirit or soul does go to be with the Lord at the moment of death there is no mention that it is immortal at that point anymore then the flesh is immortal.

Paidion- good points. :wink: When I read the account of ‘Samuel’ being brought up, it sure doesn’t sound at all like it’s a lying spirit. I’m not sure, so I suppose this is one of those areas where I remain open minded. :slight_smile:

:unamused: Be fair now Jason
 such dismissive prattle says more about your own skewed understanding of fulfillment than what I’ve been sharing.

Since you acknowledge by his very words “Jesus was predicting the fall of Jerusalem” why try and reinvent the prophetic wheel by introducing a partial/full divide that does not exist. If Jesus was plain and clear enough to the degree that “no one denies” this, why again fabricate stories (predictions) other than what Jesus’ audience (“this generation”) would understand, i.e., there was divine judgement coming and Jesus was saying “get ready” (repent etc).

Not only that
 IF in your own words “Jesus was predicting the fall of Jerusalem” then your convenient caveat “Partial fulfillments point ahead to full fulfillments later” only leaves the door open for ALL manner of useless speculation BECAUSE
 how many times is the prophetic word (partially) fulfilled BEFORE it is (actually) fulfilled? – the evidence is in that it’s been open-slather for all manner of weirdness.

Yeah
 on what basis??

Israel’s redemption WAS the catalyst to mankind’s reconciliation (Rom 11:12, 15). Jesus came as Israel’s messiah (Mt 1:21), and through faithful obedience was subsequently appointed the world’s Lord (Act 2:36), being declared “the Son of God with power” (Rom 1:4). This all occurred “at the end/s of the ages” within THEIR timeframe NOT ours


1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them (OC) as examples, and they were written for our (NC) admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

In terms of God being at peace with His creation “humanity” NOW lives beyond their “end/s of the ages”, i.e., the world lives in the benefits of what they wrought ON BEHALF OF all. That is the pattern of the ELECT aka “the firstfruits”
 to minister God’s blessing on behalf of the rest, in that, the first fruits sanctified the WHOLE


Jer 2:3a Israel was holy to the LORD, the firstfruits of his harvest.

Again this better reflects your own lack of appreciation for what that all signified. The Cross—Parousia event was the book-ends of God’s one-time history defining redemptive event where He established forever His grace toward mankind. Our message today then becomes “come into all that God has done for you”. The LoF is not about post-mortem fire insurance; it was part of the prophetic historic record of God brining to an end “their world” in which they were trusting (Jn 5:45) and finally through the Cross-Parousia event establishing grace to all.

Interesting points Davo. The partial preterist position would seem to agree with much of what you say, and they reject all the ‘end time madness’ stuff. Their position seems to have the best of your position and that of futurists. They would say that the work of Jesus’ reconciliation is still ongoing and will have a final ‘consummation’: when God is all in all. That can’t be said yet, as evil still reigns in God’s creation. God’s will is not done on earth as in heaven. The earth is not full of the knowledge of God as the seas are full of water. I can see the points Jason is making, but I can also see the points you are making
 :confused:

As I said in my earlier post, Jason has not ‘reinvented’ anything. What Jason is applying is traditional Jewish perspective to prophecy rather than false Western ideas.
The following says it clearly:

This is precisely what a messianic Jew taught me many years ago and it makes complete sense of the Biblical prophecies.

Link:
inplainsite.org/html/old_tes 
 phecy.html

They would say that the work of Jesus’ reconciliation is still ongoing and will have a final ‘consummation’: when God is all in all. That can’t be said yet, as evil still reigns in God’s creation. God’s will is not done on earth as in heaven. The earth is not full of the knowledge of God as the seas are full of water. I can see the points Jason is making, but I can also see the points you are making


Yes the Full Preterist position is lacking many fulfillments and it puts the cart before the horse. The cart is 70AD and now let’s stuff everything into the cart no matter what.

I like how you put that. :wink:

Just had a quick look Pilgrim. Looks interesting. Will check it out. :wink:

Partial prĂȘterism certainly is the safe middle ground to take and most if not all full prĂȘterists have come to that position via the “partial” route
 it’s only natural. The inevitable problem with the partial position comes down to following through the logical consequences of the prĂȘterist rationale; this however for some becomes just a bridge too far. I understand that fully as I contemplated that leap for a long time before consistency got the better and won me over in the end. One difficulty with the “full” position is it means a significant paradigm change that upsets more than a few sacred cows.

The real issue I then encountered was seeing the “inclusive” ends inherent within the full prĂȘterist position
 hence my embrace of pantelism.

As per any degree of futurism that is exactly what they say. My position on reconciliation which is more than prĂȘteristic views that hope as an established reality now, period, with no out there in the never-never yet to happen fulfillment. “Hope deferred” the bible says “makes the heart sick” and too much of the church life has been sickened by postponement eschatology and soteriology, and the wider world IMO has been left the worse off for it.

Hmm, “reigns” says who? Evil is the evidential outflow of bad people “actions” and only remains a problem to the degree good people do nothing about such wrongs. This Christianised ‘yin yang’ notion that there is some equal polar opposite “force” forever frustrating the workings of God is total poison.

Again, how do you know? Someone else will contend “all things work together for good
” – that’s got to at least include that which we interpret as being less than good
 as I understand it God’s “will” shall always be done in the earth.

This thought needs to be viewed in the context of the promised Messiah and his ministry on behalf of Israel and then to those beyond. This is primarily a word to Israel concerning her redemption future
 something attained in Christ. Again the “earth” in view was in fact “the Land”.
Also don’t forget prophetic language can be rich with colour and hyperbole, the likes of “The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den” being a good case in point; being hamstrung by crass literalism totally misses the message.

Between the two I’m sure there’s hope. :wink:

Davo- I am sure you are right, that ‘between the two there is hope’. :wink:

Hi Catherine!

I haven’t given this much thought before but I think I agree with your OP at the moment. The Bible speaks of those who were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world and also people who’s names are not written in the book of life. Your point is made stronger for me when you mention that the “Lake of Fire” as being the second death. It does make sense that those who are in the “holding tank” before they are resurrected experience death of body and soul in the second death. Good post! It has given me something to think about. :smiley: