Hi Cole, thank you for your thoughts on this. 
Itās struck me the last few days, that the Lake of Fire must be good. Its purpose is for good, so Iām trusting Jesus with this fire. He knows what Heās doing. 
Sherman, your take on this has been very enlightening. Your interpretation makes much more sense than the traditional viewpoint. Much more harmoniousā¦
Hi Catherine!
That sounds like a wonderful choice you have made there.
Davo, according to Greek lexicons, the Greek word āĪ³ĪµĪ½ĪµĪ±ā which is translated as āgenerationā has 3 or 4 different meanings, the primary meaning being "that which as been begotten, people of the same stock of family. So the Jewish people whom Jesus was addressing, would properly be called a āgenerationā.
You seem to have seen the word as ONLY applying to āthe whole multitude of people living at the same time.ā Yes, that is one of the meanings, but only one.
So it is possible that when Jesus said, āThis generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilledā, He may have been referring to the Jewish people. And Jewish people are still with us.
Such a construal is certainly the standard futurist fareā¦ however it lacks coherence, logic or the common sense reading of the text WHEN all other references of the self-same phrase āthis generationā are considered and compared. Example:
Lk 11:30-32 For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Without equivocation Jesusā āindeed a greater than ___ is hereā puts such JUDGEMENT passages fairly and squarely in the HERE and now context of Jesusā THEN present audience; Jesus was NOT speaking over their heads to non-existent addressees. Besides whichā¦ on basis would the likes of āthe Ninevitesā or āthe queen of the Southā have for casting judgement on the likes of āJewish people are still with usā? Such notions simply make a mockery of the texts.
Lk 17:25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Again, it does NOT take rocket science to see the context and meaning of āthis generationā was pointing directly to those to whom Jesus was speaking; it is the most obvious of plain readings of the text WITHOUT need of speculation nor postponement. In a similar light consider likewise Acts 13:46; Mt 21:43.
Lk 11:50-51 ā¦that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.
āAbel to the blood of Zechariahā pretty much identifies Jesusā āthis generationā as the old covenant generation. WHERE would the justice of God lie IF such a malediction STILL applied unilaterally and universally to a single people AFTER the closing of the old covenant age? Such misconstruals have been the bedrock of much 20th century anti-Semitism.
Thank you Paidion, I had intended looking up the meaning of that word.
Davo wrote:
Well, lets try the alternative reading and see:
Lk 11:30-32 For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this Jewish people. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this Jewish people and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here(amongst this Jewish people). The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here(amongst this Jewish people).
- I canāt see it takes any straining whatsoever for this to be an equally valid alternative reading.
The same is true for the other quoted texts.
What I find to be an insurmountable amount of straining is to suggest that ALL of the prophecies in Matt 23/24/25 et al have ALREADY taken place. They most clearly have not:
Mat 24:14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.
-It would be a strain to have to insert āthe then known worldā here.
Mat 24:21 For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
- It would be a strain to suggest that the holocaust was not greater. Far more straight reading of this prophecy would mean that we still await the greater tribulation.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines as far as the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Amen!
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13
Maranatha!
Mat 25:30 And throw the worthless slave out into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Paidion wrote:
So it is possible that when Jesus said, āThis generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilledā, He may have been referring to the Jewish people. And Jewish people are still with us.
Such a construal is certainly the standard futurist fareā¦ however it lacks coherence, logic or the common sense reading of the text WHEN all other references of the self-same phrase āthis generationā are considered and compared. Example:
I agree Matt 24.34 applies to 70AD since Matthew used this same word 5 times earlier to mean the group of folks living at Jesus time. However everything after that in Chap 24 i believe applies to the second coming since the descriptions are the opposite of what happened in 70AD.
Thanks Gabe. It is very challenging to rethink long-held interpretations. Iāve done a little, very little, research into finding any literature that explains what the Jews would have thought was recorded in the ābook of lifeā. Was it āpeopleā or āworksā that is recorded there? The immediate litterary context can be interpreted either way.
To me, the perspective that lines up with the character of God (love, justice, mercy, holiness, etc.) and the greater context of scripture (especially the 1 Cor. 13 passage) is interpreting ātisā as āwhateverā, implying that it is evil works that are cast into the Dead Sea (the lake of the fire and the brimstone) where everything dead in the Jordon River Valley ends up. The Dead Sea is where any trash or dead bodies burned up in Hinnom Valley (Gehennna) end up washing into.
The other perspective, to me, is almost as good though āifā one takes into consideration the fuller picture of what happens with the nations and kings in Revelation. āIFā ātisā was meant by John to reference evil āpeopleā whose ānamesā are not written in the book of life, then one must assume that all the anti-Christ nations and kings would be cast into the Dead Sea, and then journey into the New Jerusalem where the leaves of the trees are for the healing of the nations and the kings bring their wealth to worship God in the city where abide Jesus and the Bride (the church).
I think the āwhateverā interpretation of ātisā is best. All people are judged according to their āworksā. If one interpets this passage as separating the saved from the unsaved, then salvation is based on āworksā, not on the sacrifice of Christ. And thus it is only āgoodā people who will be saved, apparently those whose good works outweigh their bad works. In this scenario where does faith, grace, mercy come in? It doesnāt. And salvation is not based on the grace of God, but on the goodness of your life. And frankly, if thatās the case I donāt know that my name is written in that book.
Considering the literary context and the character of God, the āwhateverā interpretation of things, dead works, being cast into the Dead Sea (lake of fire) is the best. All people are judged according to how they live their lives, how they treat others, what they did with the blessings and opportunities given them, how they overcome the challenges, etc. etc. etc. And that which is evil, doesnāt meet the mark, is cast into the Dead Sea, forever forgotten, nothing but that which is good is left, and all evil is done away with. People are delivered from evil, not locked into evil for eternity. Jesus truly is savior of all and truly conquers all.
Again Pilgrim, the point Iām making is that between the two alternatives your āamongst this Jewish peopleā fits perfectly and logically to the specific people Jesus was addressing, i.e., his audience. āGenerationā ALWAYS references a timeframe, your generation, your parentās generation, their parentās parents etc, etc; itās called audience relevance. āGenerationā is NOT referring to a particular type or āraceā of people thousands of years hence ad infinitum.
It is also worth noting in the context of judgement and the audience to whom Jesus speaks he saysā¦
Mt 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. āAssuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.ā
Jesus is emphaticā¦ some of his then listening audience would witness the parousia BEFORE they died! In line with this consider Jesusā words to the High Priest Mt 26:64. You actually have to deal with this, it cannot be casually swept under the carpet and dismissed. IF the parousia is still yet to happen as you contend then there are āsomeā miraculously OLD people STILL living on this earth TODAY some two + millennia post Jesusā proclamationā¦ really??
The best I can do here to show you how such fulfilment fits in with āthe then known worldā is allow scripture testify unto itselfā¦
Five Greek words show the āGreat Commissionā ā into all the world ā as given by Jesus to his disciples was, according to the Scriptures, fulfilled within Jesusā āthis generationā time-frame AD30-70 and was thus the fulfilling precursor to the AD70 Parousia of Christ.
Oikoumene (ĪæĪ¹ĪŗĪæĻ
Ī¼ĪµĪ½Ī·) ā meaning: the inhabited earth e.g., Lk 2:1ā¦
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world ā oikoumene (ĪæĪ¹ĪŗĪæĻ
Ī¼ĪµĪ½Ī·) as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: āTheir sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world ā oikoumene (ĪæĪ¹ĪŗĪæĻ Ī¼ĪµĪ½Ī·).ā
GÄ (Ī³Ī·) ā meaning: earth or land:
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth ā gÄ (Ī³Ī·), and their words to the ends of the world.
Act 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth ā gÄ (Ī³Ī·).ā
EthnĆ© (ĪµĪøĪ½Ī·) ā from which āethnicā is derived:
Mt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations ā ethnĆ© (ĪµĪøĪ½Ī·), baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spiritā¦
Rom 16:26 ā¦but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations ā ethnĆ© (ĪµĪøĪ½Ī·), according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faithā
Kosmos (ĪŗĪæĻĪ¼ĪæĻ) ā meaning: the aggregate of humanity.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world ā kosmos (ĪŗĪæĻĪ¼ĪæĻ).
Col 1:6 ā¦has come to you, as it has also in all the world ā kosmos (ĪŗĪæĻĪ¼ĪæĻ), and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth.
Ktisei (ĪŗĻĪ¹ĻĪµĪ¹) ā meaning: the human creation:
Mk 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world ā kosmos (ĪŗĪæĻĪ¼ĪæĻ) and preach the gospel to every creature ā ktisei (ĪŗĻĪ¹ĻĪµĪ¹).
Col 1:23 ā¦if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature ā ktisei (ĪŗĻĪ¹ĻĪµĪ¹) under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Now you can ignore the above testimony of scripture, but I see it as absolutely NO āstrain to have to insert āthe then known worldā hereā BECAUSE this is what the inspired texts say.
I think your so-called āstrainā is further unstrung WHEN you consider the passage context, which is self-explanatory, as opposed to just isolating a text and hitching an interpretive assumption to it; consider the followingā¦
Another good verse making the case for what Iām sayingā¦ who exactly are āall the tribes of the landā wailing? ā none other than the tribes of Israel under the final judgement of Ad70. Not only this but the Greek structure of the text best reflected in the KJV actually to bares this outā¦ āand then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heavenā. WHAT was āthe signā that the Son of man was in heaven? ā the prophesied calamities as stated in the previous verse; followed then by the tribes āwailingā at the Coming of the Lord. It ALL fits together!
Hi Davo - thanks for your reply, I donāt have a lot of time at the mo so Iāll probably give a fuller consideration later.
Just at the mo:
Iām not sure what you are saying here and would appreciate some clarification. What I mean is that I agree the English word āgenerationā refers to a time frame, but are you disagreeing with Paidions point that the Greek word can just as easily mean āstock of peopleā (living at any time throughout history)? If so, then I understand your point but I would like to know on what grounds you reject the Greek lexiconās information.
Firstly note the quote is way back in Mt 16 NOT the Matt 23,24,25 discourse. But more importantly I agree that Jesus is emphaticā¦ some of his then listening audience would witness the Son of Man coming in His kingdom BEFORE they died!
But read on. Why stop there? What happens in the NEXT TWO VERSES:
Mat 17:1 And after six days, Jesus took Peter and James, and his brother John, and brought them up into a high mountain privately.
Mat 17:2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothing became white as the light.
I donāt know why some people disassociate Jesusā promise from what happens in the next two verses - they see him coming in His Kingdom.
That would be a very silly and unnecessary interpretation - certainly not mine nor anyone I know who is ānon-preteristā.
Interestingly enough, I had already mentioned that the Jewish perspective of prophecy was not āpreteristā nor āfuturistā etc but was ALL of them because they believed in a repeating pattern of fulfilment of prophecy until the final absolute fulfilment.
Well, a few verses later the text actually emphasises JUST THIS VIEW of prophecy:
Mat 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?
Mat 17:11 And answering, Jesus said to them,** Elijah indeed comes first and shall **restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say to you, Elijah already came, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they desired. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them about John the Baptist.
I must go now but I will have a good read of the rest of your posts asap
God bless
Hi again Davo
Yes, according to the definition you have given here, the Greek means āthe inhabited earthā - that must include Australia and America etc. I agree with what the scripture says here.
Now here, Paul is quoting Psalm 19v4 which says:
Psa 19:4 Their measuring line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world; in them He has set up a dwelling-place for the sun,
Paul (and the Psalmist) is talking about the message of creation NOT the parousia. Surely there can be no doubt about that because, according to the Psalmist who says Psa 19:1 To the chief musician. A Psalm of David. The heavens are recounting the glory of God, and the expanse proclaiming His handiwork. According to David this had alreadyt happened in HIS day WELL before Jesusā incarnation so you cannot use this to support your perspective (can you??).
I agree but I cannot see your point with this scripture reference.
et al
I may be mistaken as to why these support your position but, if I understand you right (please forgive if not) your point is that because not every man, woman and child had heard the gospel and yet St Paul uses the sort of phraseology shown then it is ok to believe that the term āworldā ākosmosā etc was used loosely by St Paul. I agree but I really donāt see how that necessitates preterism.
Why do you say āignore the testimony of scriptureā as if one would have to do that? What we can both be very confident of is that even if the text meant āthe then known worldā, then St Paul was STILL using hyperbola because it is certain that not every man, woman and child had heard the gospel preached even in the then known world. So surely the safest thing is to accept what our lexicons say the Greek means rather than something else. The Greek either means the entire planet or it means āthe inhabited landsā which is not āthe then known worldā (whatever that phrase may mean because it was well known that the earth was a sphere at that time).
Davo replied:
I wish I could follow you here Davo but I cannot understand what you are saying.
Are you saying that the 70AD tribulation was greater than the WW2 holocaust?
When you say
Where have you established this idea that Matthew says the GT takes place in the middle of History? I know that is YOUR position but just stating it as fact does not make it so. I am looking for evidence.
I repeat, is it your belief that the 70AD troubles were greater than the WW2 holocaust?
What is your basis for saying this? The first Temple was destroyed with carnage, the second Temple was likewise and if a third is built I dare say it is likely to be destroyed with even greater carnage (possibly nuclear next time)
But that is NOT what the verse says.
The verse does not say that āhe sign that the son of man was in heaven was/is the calamitiesā as you say,
what the scripture says is:
ātey will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much gloryā
Every translation I have examined says the same thing - that they will SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING.
Are you saying that the people of 70AD saw Jesus coming? How so?
Thank you once again for the replies you have given Davo. I am wondering why you did not reply to the other 3 verses:
Mat 25:30 And throw the worthless slave out into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
The chapter divisions are a much later addition to the text and Jesusā address continues smoothly into Ch25. Do you believe these verses were also fulfilled in 70AD or are they a future event(s)? Do you thing my bolded is not the same āsee him coming in power and great gloryā as in Ch24v30?
Davo, you sound absolutely certain about your belief that āthis generationā needs to refer to the people to whom He was speaking, presumably the Jews of that day, whereas we accursed futurists are out to lunch.
But let me ask you why should the blood of all the prophets from the beginning of the world have been required of of the Jews in THAT generation? Why would it not be required by the Jews of subsequent generations also? What made the Jews of that generation any more guilty of the blood of the prophets prior to their lifetime, than the Jews of subsequent generations, or the Jews of previous generations who were directly responsible for the death of these prophets?
Paidion- good question. I believe the generation Jesus was speaking to was āuniquelyā guilty and suffered Godās judgment (in 70AD), because unlike previous generations that had killed Godās spokespersons/prophets, that generation killed Godās own Son. Jesus demonstrated His Sonship to them by His miracles and what He taught and even Godās power did not move their hearts (sinning against the Holy Spirit??). It makes sense then that that generation Jesus was speaking to, was who Jesus was referring to , when He spoke about the blood of all the prophets etc. 
I guess if Darth Vader must go for a reconciled Anakin to emerge, would not the āold manā, the Vader be destroyed by that process of making all things new? The lake of fire Iād think does destroy the old, just as death itself will be destroyed, having been part of that old order.
If someoneās name is not in the book of life at a particular moment of it being read, is there anything precluding names from being added later? Just because all are predestined to be in it wouldnāt mean that a particular snapshot of it at the passing of one age into the next would be the whole story ā or would it?
If someoneās name is not in the book of life at a particular moment of it being read, is there anything precluding names from being added later? Just because all are predestined to be in it wouldnāt mean that a particular snapshot of it at the passing of one age into the next would be the whole story ā or would it?
The bible does say our name could be blotted out of the book of life (listening Calvinists?) therefore it would seem a name could be blotted in too.
Iām basically affirming your āI agree the English word āgenerationā refers to a time frameā and contending that was likewise how Jesus was using it in-kind with his own period. Iām not arguing against lexical variants, the likes Paidion identifies, but disagreeing with the futurist conclusion he was drawing from that, i.e., āHe may have been referring to the Jewish people. And Jewish people are still with us.ā ā meaning āthis race shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilledā thus pushing said prophecy out into the never, never 2000+ yrs and counting. I think Iāve showed adequately Jesus was speaking directly to biblical Israel there and THEN, i.e., āt/his generationā.
And that means whatā¦?? The context of the passage tells plainly it is a parousaic passage in-kind with what Jesus simply expands on later. 
And Iām not sure why you would disassociate the ONE verse directly preceding (vs27) which again lays the concrete context of the coming judgement and attendant rewardsā¦ āFor the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.ā
The ātransfigurationā of Mt 17:1-2 HAD nothing to do with Christās ārewarding each according to his worksā ā something CLEARLY in league with āthe endā. The ātransfigurationā on the other hand was but a mere 6 days hence with no great persecutions or tribulations predicted or otherwise, and most definitely NO THREATS of imminent deathā¦ that was YET to come starting with Saul. Thus to try and equate the two is more than well and truly forced, IMO.
Well, unless you are going to hold stubbornly onto your (IMO) āvery silly and unnecessary interpretationā ātransfigurationā argument, how then do you deal with āthere are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdomā? It will not go away.
No, not āAustralia and America etcā but āthe inhabited earthā AS THEY KNEW IT. Just like that Lk 2:1 reference indicatedā¦ I was hoping youād read and realised the gist. āAnd it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.ā = Oikoumene (ĪæĪ¹ĪŗĪæĻ Ī¼ĪµĪ½Ī·).
Earlier with regards to Mt 24:14 and the parousia you said: ā-It would be a strain to have to insert āthe then known worldā here.ā I was simply pointing out the biblical fact that the gospel had indeed gone global AS THEY KNEW IT as per and according to ALL those texts I provided, that say it had.
I am post evangelical. Evangelicalism says Christ cannot āreturnā until all people groups etc have been borne witness of the gospelā¦ pantelism agrees with prĆŖterism that the parousia is indeed a past event BECAUSE āall the worldā i.e., the KNOWN world of that day at least according to those texts as given heard the gospel. So THAT was the point of those 5 Greek wordsā¦
Absolutely agree.
I wonāt worry about commenting further on David Chiltonās āParadise Restoredā quote as it said well my thoughts, but hereās the pdf LINK. He wrote this as a firmly entrenched partial prĆŖterist/futurist.
In terms of Jesusā prophetic wordā¦ absolutely NO contest! Jesus was NOT talking about āWW2 holocaustā, he was speaking to the calamity on THEIR immediate horizonā¦ that which was āABOUT TOā take place.
??.. I said: āWHAT was āthe signā that the Son of man was in heaven? ā the prophesied calamities as stated in the previous verse; followed then by the tribes āwailingā at the Coming of the Lord.ā
The previous verse states these concurrent events āImmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.ā By ācalamitiesā I was referring to āthe tribulation of those daysā. That āthese thingsā (Mt 24:33; Lk 21:7, 9, 28, 31. 36) were happening was indicative or āthe signā that the Son of man was in deed in Heaven and ready to come in Judgement.
Jesusā coming was in the same vein as Yahwehās other OT comings, āon the cloudsā. Such judgements were ādays of cloudsā and calamitiesā¦ āFor the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.ā Ezek 30:3 cf Zeph 1:14-18; Isa 19:1; Mt 26:64. Note also the phrase āthe time of the Gentiles.ā
They all saw, even those who pierced him, but only those of āunderstandingā truly perceived and believing Jesusā words got out (Lk 21:21) and were duly āsavedā Mt 24:13.
Lolā¦ so many questions, so little time.
As I understand it they are all one, yet differing aspects of āthe Day of the Lordā. The nations being judged was primarily Israel (Gen 17:4-6, 16; 35:11). Once she was judged and redeemed reconciliation flowed to all beyond.
Pantelism (NOT prĆŖterism) views the CrossāParousia event as establishing the restorative grace of God from time immemorial on into perpetuity āworld without endā.
Hey, never āaccursedāā¦ it just that an historical reading makes the most logical, linguistic and natural of reading of the text, IMO. IOW, IF no other thought/agenda/presupposition is brought to the text no other airy fairy conclusions would be drawnā¦ they his audience would be hearing and come to either accept or reject his words to them ā both had consequences.
Unlike EVERY other generation they actually had āthe Lord of Gloryā, their Messiah. All that their story had been running towards was being fulfilled in THEIR dayā¦ it was THEIR āday of visitationā (Lk 19:41-44) and they were blind to it. Their day or ātimeā of salvation would also be their day or ātimeā of judgement (Acts 2:16-21)ā¦ the accumulative effect of all that had gone before would have its purposed ending.
Now in line with this it was very much the case of āto whom much is given much is requiredā ā they had āthe living oracles of Godā (Acts 7:38; Rom 3:1-2), theirs was āthe adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promisesā (Rom 9:4). Like their forebears they had turned all these into ends in themselves as opposed to being the means to an endā¦ āthe light of the worldā. Jesus and hid firstfruit saints finally changed all that.
The implications of this question really need thinking aboutā¦
Now I know you would in NO WAY impugn the Jewish people of modern times, BUT this is exactly the rationale the Nazis followed as justifying their collective crime of WWII. The reality is, IF Godās RECONCILIATION of humanity means anything then Israelās REDEMPTION must mean the end of āthe curse of the Lawā. That end IMO came in the CrossāParousia event of AD30-70ā¦ 40yrs, a biblical generation, the āthis generationā where the outworking of Godās redemptive purposes finally found their goal.
Even though ALL ISRAEL, the good, the bad and the ugly were redeemed fully out of Egypt (bondage), ONLY those of faith went on into experience the fullness of life in the āLand of Promiseā. Emulating the 40yr pattern of trials and tribulationsā¦ with Christ having redeemed ALL ISRAEL only those of faith went on into LIFE in the ācoming new ageā surviving into the post Ad70 world. Paul could see the coming crisis and wanted as many of his brethren to be āsavedā from it as possible.
Thatās another way of sayingā¦ NT āsalvationā was a whole lot more than just āgetting to heavenā.
Hi Davo
Thank you once again for the time you have taken to reply to my thoughts.
If I consider a wish list then let me say that within that list would be the truth of UR, and the truth of either Preterism or Pantelism.
When I wish for something to be true I try to look long and hard in scripture in order that I might collect enough evidence to push me that way.
I donāt know who (in their right mind) would wish for a great tribulation yet to come, but unfortunately I cannot see the evidence as you see it.
I am glad to say that from scripture I CAN be a very hopeful universalist, and even moreso from logic and examination/experience of the character of God.
I also acknowledge that any eschatological view has some problematic texts. Let me try to list where I am at the moment:
-
Jesus only once uses the phrase āsome standing here who shall not taste deathā¦ā (recorded in Luke 9 and in Matt 16)
Both accounts are immediately followed by the transfiguration. They DID at this point** SEE **Jesus in His Glory as He will be at His second coming and this was all Jesus promised.
I think that either interpretation is very reasonable. I take your point about the preceding verses and I hope you take my point about the following verses. Jesus did not say that they would see the whole array of events surrounding His second coming, but as I say IMO both interpretations are very possible WITHOUT STRAINING. -
Re. āthis generationā: Obviously this is quite a different turn of phrase and I find it noteworthy that Jesus refrained from His previous turn of phrase āsome standing hereā in preference for āthis generationā. Three possible interpretations are:
a) It means the people listening to Jesusā discourse
b) It means the generation He is referring to WITHIN His discourse (ie the āblossoming fig-treeā generation He had alluded to)
c) It means āthis gene-poolā ie the Jewish people at any time in history.
Again, I can understand how an unbiased reader might consider any of those three interpretations to be reasonably possible without straining.
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The greatest tribulation ever:
I have visited a concentration camp. I donāt know if you have. Six million Jews, experimentation on children of the most obscene type etc.
I couldnāt really see an answer to my question as to whether you thought the 70ad trib was worse than the WW2 trib. Perhaps that is my own fault but regardless of that, the only conclusion I can come to is that if 70AD was the event Jesus was referring to, then He was wrong, as history has shown.
4. Jesus clearly said they would see** HIM(Jesus)** coming. They did NOT see Him coming.
I think you have given me plenty of your precious time Davo and there will be no further benefit to either of us in continuing this discussion so I wish you Godās richest blessings and His Peace.
Cheers.