The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Not in the book of life leads to the Lake of Fire.

  1. Jesus only once uses the phrase ‘some standing here who shall not taste death…’ (recorded in Luke 9 and in Matt 16)
    Both accounts are immediately followed by the transfiguration. They DID at this point SEE Jesus in His Glory as He will be at His second coming and this was all Jesus promised.
    I think that either interpretation is very reasonable.

The problem is it’s followed to soon by the transfigeration, i believe 6 days which makes Jesus statement problematic. I think it’s his ascension as described by Dan 7.13.

**In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt 3:1,2 ESV)

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt 4:17 ESV)**

Both John the Baptizer and Jesus proclaimed the same message. The verb translated “is at hand” is a perfect active indicative, and would better be translated “has drawn near”. A kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. At this point, Jesus had not yet called his disciples to follow Him. He began to do so in the very next verse. Once He had called his disciples, wasn’t the Kingdom of Heaven, or the Kingdom of God?

Then we have the following sentence in Luke:

But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:27 ESV)

And then in chapter 17:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (Luke 17:20,21 ESV)

So at this point, the Kingdom of God had arrived. For there in the midst of the Pharisees stood King Jesus and his subjects (his disciples).

I am struggling to understand all this. I would like to say that not only some, but all of the disciples saw the Kingdom of God, for together with Jesus they FORMED the Kingdom of God as indicated by Jesus in the Luke 17 passage above. But then Jesus was alone with his disciples in the Luke 9 passage. Why was that not the Kingdom of God at that point? Does anyone have any suggestions to help me to understand?

The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (Luke 17:20,21 ESV)

Here in luke 17 it seems that the kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed but in Luke 9 Jesus refers to seeing the kingdom of God therefore it may be a different manifestation of the kingdom of God later on.

Paidion. Good question. I’ve been wondering this too… :confused:

Hi Paidion…

As I understand it… “the kingdom of God” aka “kingdom of heaven” (one and the same Mt 19:23-24) being “near” or “at hand” was Jesus’ way of proclaiming to Israel her year or time of liberty under “the reign of God” is here i.e., the RETURN of Yahweh to Zion… this was another way of saying “your exile (covenant death) is over”. This was Israel’s GOSPEL, “the good news” (εὐαγγέλιον euangélion), elsewhere described in terms of “the consolation of Israel” (Lk 2:25, 38; 23:51; 24:21; Mk 15:43; Acts 1:6; Ezek 37:11-12) – restoration/redemption/resurrection etc…

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who proclaims peace, who brings glad tidings of good things, who proclaims salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns!” cf Isa 61:1-3; Lk 4:18-19

IOW… the kingdom or reign of God was now presentin the midst of you” in Jesus… and to as many as grasped this (him) reality to them was conferred “authority” in said kingdom/reign (Jn 1:12; Lk 12:32, 22:29; Mt 21:43)

Now when Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation” he meant “the kingdom of God is not of this world” in terms of a geo-political reign; whereas that is exactly what the Israelites were waiting for, a Messiah to rout the enemy, in this case Rome… this is why “they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king”, Jesus however flees from this, Jn 6:15.

Now with regards to Lk 9:27 Mark expands with more clarity on this saying…

Mk 9:1 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.” [NKJV] marginal note reads: having come.

What needs to be pointed out here is that Mark sees some of the disciples living to see Christ’s return and kingdom coming by using the perfect participle while Matthew sees it in the future. In other words Mark is saying that some of the disciples would live to be able to look back on this event knowing that the coming of the Lord and His kingdom had already come:

Mk 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."
[NASB]

Mk 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.
[ESV]

Mk 9:1 Verily, say unto you–There, are, certain of those here standing, who shall in nowise taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God, already come in power. [ROTHERHAM]

Mk 9:1 And he said to them, `Verily I say to you, That there are certain of those standing here, who may not taste of death till they see the reign of God having come in power.
[YOUNG’S LITERAL TRANSLATION]

Mk 9:1 Then he added, "Believe me, there are some of you standing here who will know nothing of death until you have seen the kingdom of God already come in power!"
[J.B. PHILLIPS]

Mk 9:1 And he said to them, Truly I say to you that there are men standing here who shall not taste death till they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.
[LAMSA’S PESHITTA]

Mk 9:1 He went on to say, "In solemn truth I tell you that some of those who are standing here will certainly not taste death till they have seen the Kingdom of God already come in power.
[R.F. WEYMOUTH]

R.F. WEYMOUTH, footnote:

Already come] Or ‘already arrived;’ the perfect participle. The imperfect act ‘coming’ is mentioned in Matt. xvi. 28, the completed act of ‘having come’ is mentioned here.

In power] Some suppose that the reference is to a spiritual and judicial Coming of Christ at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., just within the lifetime of His earthly contemporaries.

All good. :mrgreen:

Thank you, Davo! I have agreed for some time with all that you wrote above about the Kingdom of God (aka the Kingdom of Heaven).
My problem was with Mark 9:1, which seemed to indicate (according to the translations I had been reading) that the coming of Kingdom of God was yet future to the disciples. I had not noticed the Greek verb ἐληλυθιαν in particular, and thus had not noticed that it was a perfect participle. This puts a whole different meaning to the sentence, namely that there were some standing there who would not die until they perceived or understood that the Kingdom of God had already come! My thanks again, Davo!

I am still puzzled, however. Wasn’t it the case that the only ones standing there were his disciples? Did this mean that some of them did not understand that the Kingdom had come? Indeed, did they not understand that they themselves were part of the Kingdom, since they were the disciples or the subjects of King Jesus?

And why did He say there are SOME standing here who will not die until they understand that the Kingdom of God has come with power?
Why did He not say there are NONE standing here who will not die until they understand the Kingdom of God has come with power?
Did most of them die without this understanding?

Hi Paidion… in a real sense “the coming” spoken of was indeed future to them… primarily or ultimately in terms of the Ad70 parousia as it was “with power”. The “with power” fits best with the Ad70 scenario as opposed for example, the outpouring of Pentecost, simply because the previous verse (8:38) clearly puts it in the parousaic context of the glory of the Father and the attendant angels etc.

But you are right, there was also the factor of the burgeoning revelation of the reality of the kingdom’s presence then and there… I tend to see this in terms of what some call the “already not yet” – again something my position holds to as being relative to the Ad30-70 40yr overlapping or transitional period of old to new covenants.

No… 8:34 indicates “the people” being present, as well as “the disciples”.

This is likely because Jesus knew SOME would indeed pay with their lives in martyrdom… following their Lord as they did (Mt 10:38-39) before the coming parousia. Jesus’ “whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” was a generic statement and ONLY poses a problem when forced into a wooden literalism. SOME did in fact die for the cause but were to be summarily rewarded in kind in the parousia.

That Jesus said as he did makes it fairly obvious that “death” and particular in terms of the disciples “martyrdom” (Mk 10:38-39), was more the likely scenario… just not for all – hence also the rumour about John (Jn 21:20-23), which Patmos “might” suggest was indeed the case.