But what would you say if Josephus really did think that (him being a Jew) God was at work? Your point about historiography is suspect and means I am leaving the conversation to those more adept than me. Yo… maybe your (or for that part my) understanding might not be the way it was?
Good luck.
How would J KNOW that, though?
And happily there ARE more adept people than me. Who give reasons for these things. If I had to rely on myself, God help me…
Well, regardless of whether what Josephus wrote be framed as ‘history’ or ‘historiography’ the texts ARE clear… he who wrote such actually DID believe God was actively present in said events.
Well he’s entitled to his interpretation, naturally…
And that’s just it… interpretation OR otherwise Josephus DID attribute the conflagrations of those days TO GOD — whether one agrees or for whatever reason disagrees with Josephus is redundant; which is WHY I brought clarification to Paidion’s errant claim that… “he did not state that this destruction was God’s punishment of the Jews.” Well YES he did, and just to be clear check this…
War of the Jews 6:2:1
And are not both the city, and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans; and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions.”
I’m not arguing anything here.Did God do as Josephus stated? Is that the correct interpretation of the events? How would I know? How did he?
So I take it with a grain of salt…that’s all.
Well Dave… given you’re not arguing anything here and so maybe(??) have no dog in the fight, then possibly you could with your open mind ask yourself… in light of what Jesus warned HIS PEOPLE (Mt24, Mk13, Lk17, 21) would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw such an interpretive realisation that… THIS, i.e., the DoJ was THAT of which Jesus prophesied? — OR, to take a leaf out of a reasonably favoured scholar of yours, aka Tom Wright, the answer would be a resounding YES!!
“One of the main reasons, I suppose, why the obvious way of reading the chapter has been ignored for so long must be the fact that in a good deal of Christian theology the fall of Jerusalem has had no theological significance. This has meant not only that Mark 13 is found puzzling, but also that all the references to the same event elsewhere in the gospels – even where it stares one in the face, as in Luke 13:1-5 – have been read as general warnings of hellfire in an afterlife, rather than the literal and physical divine-judgment-through-Roman-judgment that we have seen to be characteristic of Jesus’ story.” ( Jesus and Victory of God , pp. 343-344. Fortress Press, 1996).
Sounds straightforward enough to me.
I do hold to a future ‘second coming’, however…as does TW.
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With regards to dispensational delusions on Zechariah 14… attached is a PDF which wipes the floor of such notions. It is written by partial prêterist aka futurist Gary DeMar from his book ‘Last Days Madness’ — I can recommend this eye-opening book. Zechariah 14 and The Coming of Christ.pdf (85.7 KB)
I’ve read that book and it made some very good points.
I happen to be listening right now to this: (which is a vindication of the future 2nd coming)
Part of it is & the part is not, I think about verse 35 on is about the second coming.
I don’t think the rebuilding of the temple is necessary for the futurist view. The rebuilding of the temple I believe is from Ezekial 44 (I think) but it was conditional upon the peoples obedience. You can have a millineum and renewed Israel without a rebuilt temple.
That’s such a good clip, and yet he is so close but just falls short IMO. Yes AD70 is the vindication of Jesus and THAT from my perspective IS what the so-called 2nd coming was. NTW is correct about Jesus’ Coming to the Ancient of Days — THAT was kicked off in His Ascension.
What I find really frustrating about Wright is he makes these throw-away comments like he did near the end of this clip that… “Jesus’ Coming is all over the new testament” — BUT never seems to actually identify these specific texts, WHEREAS he clarifies so many texts just assumed to be about a future end of time-space Coming; demonstrating such texts are really pertinent to the AD70 DoJ… of which I agree. Consider the language structure of this…
Mt 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Well what was THE SIGN that the Son of man was “in heaven” i.e., vindicated? — the “coming on the clouds” EVENT of AD70. As NTW himself has pointed out about the “cloud-coming language of Yahweh” etc…
Ezek 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, (AD 70 Judgment) the time of the Gentiles. (Rome, Lk 21:24)
Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds (AD 70 Judgment) and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations. (Rome, Lk 21:24)
Zeph 1:15 That day is a day of wrath (AD 70 Judgment), a day of trouble and distress, a day of devastation and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness. (Rome, Lk 21:24)
Jesus WAS that new Temple… “tear this one down and I’ll rebuild it in 3 days!”
The sooner they rebuild a temple in Jerusalem the better… THEN when NOTHING happens folks will hopefully start to realise the reality, i.e., the lack thereof of dispensational premillennialism.
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I am a gentile, and I didn’t “come in” to the Body of Christ until well after the first century, so how could my ‘coming in’ be a 1st century event?
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” Romans 11:25-26.
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me [Jesus], the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child [i.e, recognize and repent], and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech. 10.
Gentiles are still coming into the Body of Christ until this very day, so we still not at the full number of gentiles to come in; and certainly the en masse repentance of Israel to accept Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah, foretold in Romans 11 and Zechariah 10 above, is likewise yet unfulfilled.
Jerusalem will again be surrounded by hostile armies. As I pointed out earlier,
You say,
Again, we differ on what is figurative, and what is literal. We are indeed the spiritual temple of God, with Christ as the cornerstone, but a physical temple will yet be rebuilt.
As to sacrifices in the OT foreshadowing the sacrifice of Christ, I of course agree. But the sacrifices by the Jews at the Temple during the coming Millennial Age will, like the Lord’s Supper, memorialize the sacrifice of Christ, not take away sins.
It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4.
There are various camps within futurism, with differences about, e.g., when the Antichrist will appear on the world stage, and about the timing of the Rapture/s. (For example, I believe that the Antichrist will apparently rescue the world from impending destruction, and then lead the world into a prolonged era of unprecedented peace and prosperity—an era shockingly punctuated by the first, Pre-Tribulation Rapture.)
But there is agreement that Antichrist will desecrate the the temple:
Daniel 9:26-27
26 … The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed. 27 He [=the prince, Antichrist] will make a firm covenant with many for one week [the 70th week], but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple, until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.
For Antichrist to “put a stop to sacrifice and offering,” there must again be a temple, with sacrifice and offering.
The following warning of Christ—which I believe, in contradiction to the hopes of open theism, will indeed come to pass—reveals details that were clearly not literally fulfilled in the first century AD, in contradiction to preterism:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
…
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then ALL THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH will mourn when they SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.Matthew 24:14-16, 30-31.
Here is yet another news item regarding movement toward the rebuilding of a literal temple in Jerusalem:
JERUSALEM – The re-established Jewish Sanhedrin is pushing the envelope on the rebuilding of the Temple next Monday, the last evening of Hanukkah, by consecrating a stone altar and reading of a declaration to all nations intended as an invitation to participate in receiving its blessings – leading to an effort to replace the United Nations with a new, God-centered organization.
A full-dress re-enactment of the Korban Olah Tamid (the daily offering) will also take place, with Kohanim (Jewish men of the priestly caste descended from Aaron) wearing biblically mandated garb leading the ceremony.
Where the event takes place is not yet known as the city of Jerusalem is dealing with security concerns, as the ceremony could set off Muslim protests or violence if performed in view of the Temple Mount.
Whether the priests will ritually slaughter a lamb or prepared meat be used is still a question, though the Sanhedrin has received the necessary permits from government organizations. In either case, the meat will be roasted on the newly consecrated altar…
Well… contrary to your assertion THIS is what Jesus proclaimed, with Paul likewise proclaiming, seeing and affirming the same…
Act 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.
Rom 16:26 …but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
Col 1:5b-6 …the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth.
Col 1:23 …if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Will your wooden literalism NOW conveniently disappear in a vain attempt to rationalise these texts away that prove your statement above to be inaccurate?
You couldn’t have given a clearer and better example the dispensational modus operandi… newspaper theology!
MY wooden literalism? In the face of verses like these…
Col. 1:5-6 (KJV)
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
…unlike you, I do not believe the gospel is literally already come “in all the world.”
I agree, for example, with New Testament scholar A.T. Robertson (1863-1934) on this point:
In all the world (εν παντ τω κοσμω). A legitimate hyperbole, for the gospel was spreading all over the Roman Empire.
Of course, I do believe that the gospel will be literally preached in the whole world, as prophesied by Jesus (in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24), followed by “the end” coming:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
But this work will be completed by angels (or messengers, which could be glorified humans) from heaven, during the coming eviction of the devil:
Rev. 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people.
I don’t believe every gentile will become part of the limited number of people who will finally comprise the full Body of Christ. Everyone will become a follower of Christ, but there is a fixed number in the “Bride,” and there will be a “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (Rev. 19:9) before the Second Coming of Christ, back to earth with all his saints, on white horses!
Jerusalem will again be trampled (Rev. 11:2). The ending date for the fullness of gentiles coming in, is marked by the (obviously still future) en masse repentance of Israel at the Second Coming of Christ, as discussed above regarding Zechariah 12 and Romans 11.
Again, do you consider the Lord’s Supper a shadow, or a memorial to the reality of what Christ has already done? The temple sacrifices during the coming Millennial Age must therefore be memorial.