The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Opinions on this article please?

Everyone please come back

Bret your input is vital here – more than mine -and that’s a very lucid post you’ve made. And all of the parallels between people coming out as Gay (and begin rejected for it) and coming out as UR (and being rejected for it) are quite startling; they’ve certainly made me sit up.

I reckon most of us here have been victims of shunning and rejection in our life – and some of his has been done in the name of God who is all compassionate. When I was a fundamentalist I was victimised for being epileptic – and how archaic is that? So victimisation is not purely a Gay issue.

Sometimes I may seem a bit detached – but I’m really not so (just a bit of a man with a flat nose – always bumping into lampposts walking along the road reading books).

What I meant by ‘they don’t know what they are doing’ is not that that they aren’t smooth operators, politicos, mystifiers, and trouble causers – they are all of these things –it’s that they mistakenly identify God with a God of power who finds meaning in death rather than life (and I think at least the mistake is sincere). And I wonder what the best way to challenge this is – slowly, patiently (we’re all in this together).

I could stop the intellectual posts if you want; ad wold be graciously happy to. My view – since I popped in on this one (quite late) is that the thread is too important for that and too rich in important issues and if the conversation doesn’t have a shape and isn’t restimulated it will dry up quite quickly. But I don’t always find this thread comfortable – trying to even handed and trying not to show emotions the I sometimes do feel strongly (because the last thread had a lot of emotion of a different sort and you can’t fight fire with fire in my experience – and that’s always a worry to me).

But I can go back to the Quakers thread now if that’s cool – and that is cool by me. I reckon you can all discuss the relevant Biblical passages purely using Benny’s blog on ‘Accepting Evangelicals’ – which is very good stuff.
Blessings

Dick

PROF!!!

No one wants YOU to go anywhere, do NOT stop your postings… they are what is keeping this dialogue going. I don’t believe its your posts that people aren’t speaking up, I think it’s your observation that it IS a touchy and emotion filled subject, thus it can be very, very difficult for people to speak up. Maybe their ideas are different than ours and that’s ok. I don’t want anyone to condone “my lifestyle” (YUCK to that word!! LOL)… that isn’t the point. If they are uncomfortable with it, so be it. Each of us has a God given brain to use and should be able to speak up with out being lambasted by another. I have, more times than I’d like to think about, done just that to other people and have chased them away. Never intentional, but I have done just that. So I’m not very good at this topic either. I guess WE all are trying to find our way TOGETHER, speak from our hearts, and let the Holy Spirit into our conversations so that we CAN be a blessing to each other. I’m hoping that is the point of even having this entire forum!!!

At any rate, don’t stop Prof, if for only me, I like the “heavy duty” stuff you put up here. And if it ends up being just you and I and we have lurkers, so what? Maybe, God willing, we can ALL continue to learn and grow in Him!! So stay put Prof!! We need you here!! As my dear departed Dad used to say, “I have spoken!”

Love and blessings,
Bret

And Prof, I’m sorry you find this thread uncomfortable…like you can’t show your REAL emotions. That makes me sad. I’m afraid, very afraid, I have personally chased one or two off by my own comments. So the emotion that charges this topic are the differences in opinions… BUT it’s how we deal with those differences that IS REALLY important!!! That IS the key here. I do humbly apologize for chasing away folks, you know who you are and I wish I would NOT have done and said a few things. I am truly sorry. Sometimes, my fingers get in gear before my brain has sorted my ideas properly, for that, I AM truly sorry. I ask your forgiveness?

We need you Prof!

Love,
Bret

Bret you are so likeable – and there’s nothing to forgive :smiley: .

I hope I do express my true emotions – in an English sort of way :unamused: :laughing: :laughing:

But seriously – you should see some of my moments of inglorious glory on other threads here when I’ve turned into a passion flower!!! And the blind fury of the mob is emotion too.

It’s a pleasure to participate in this thread. The discomfort comes from an awareness of the need to keep it safe and relatively free of bigotry, while being even handed, and hoping that if someone with a very different point of view here did a post we wouldn’t all turn on them as ‘counter-scapegoating scapegoaters’ (as it were -which can happen; and it would mean that we’d all be in hock with a religion centred on fear and death :cry: , if only temporarily).

Perhaps I’m a worrier – but its best to let head speak to heart (‘forewarned is forearmed’ as they say)

It’s only two days that we had the last spate of wide contributions – but I too reckon it’s time for some more :sunglasses:

You keep posting Bret – and just check out what I mean if I seem to slip. It will normally be a case of me just being a clumsy cerebral clot :blush: .

Blessings friend

Dick

Just to make you titter (I hope) Here is what Deborah Ross, a secular journalist writing in the Independent on Sunday makes of the whole furor over gay partnerships (and is very relevant to Bret’s recent post):

**If you ask me, I hate to say I told you so – much as it always gives me satisfaction – but haven’t I said all along that if same-sex marriages were ever legalised, the moral universe would implode, the world as we know it would end, and we’d all be tipped into hell and oblivion for all eternity? Didn’t I? And hasn’t this proved to be so? Hasn’t it?

In fact, moments after Stig Elling married his partner Steen Andersen in a Copenhagen church last Saturday under new Danish laws allowing such a ceremony, didn’t the citizens of Copenhagen hear a low rumbling sound, followed by a terrifying ripping as Church ruptured from State, “traditional family values” were torn asunder, frogs rained down, locusts swarmed, loins were smited, and satanic, skeletal creatures, with teeth like jagged shards of glass, tore humans limb from limb before feasting greedily on their organs?

“I knew what this was from the instant I first heard the low rumbling and a traditional family value, whipped up by the wind, struck me viciously in the side of the face,” said one citizen. “I thought: Cheers, Stig and Steen. You just couldn’t carry on living together, could you? You had to stand up and insist on being treated equally before God and the law, and now I’m about to get my heart ripped out, and feasted upon? Great. Thanks a lot. You’ve blown it for all of us.”
And wasn’t this all as predicted in Deuteronomy? As in: “And the Lord sayeth if man marryeth man and receiveth equal rights to one day looketh at that man over breakfast and realiseth they have nothing left to sayeth to each other, the Lord’s wrath will be fearsome?”

The Danish Prime Minister, Helle Thorning-Schmidt, appealed for calm and attempted to appease God – “Oh, Lord, why didn’t we listen? Oh, Lord, forgive Stig and Steen, who could have just lived together, the big sillies!” – but it was too late. The earth cleaved and mountains tumbled into the sea as the citizens were flung into a bottomless pit of darkness for all eternity, and all of Denmark was engulfed by fire and brimstone and a tempest of those traditional family values, which can slice an ear off, if you are not careful.

Alas, Denmark is now no more; just a gap in the North Sea where it used to be, with only the occasional surface bubbling to show where it once was, and only continued sales of The Killing box set and Lego, as long as stocks last, to prove it ever even existed. And some people say allowing gay marriages won’t make a blind bit of a difference; that pleading “Christian values” and “family values” is only a smokescreen for homophobia. Honestly, what a joke.**

OK this bristles with satirical sarcasm – but we Universalist Christians have a case to answer. Is our God like the one that Deborah Ross portrays – is that really how we think about our loving God? Or is she describing the God of the scapegoaters that we are meant to be leaving behind?

Blessings

Dick

Dick,

A truly wonderful, blessed (and certainly in no way boring) and loving summary in appreciation of the our dear C of E.

Thank you!

Michael in Barcelona

Wow Prof - satire at it’s best!!! I DID have to laugh out loud because that is exactly what I have been taught all my life. So here comes the serious side of Bret. Just a FYI, my Stephen and I have been together longer than his parents were and definitely longer than my parents were. Seems both of our parents had NO problem dissolving what didn’t work for them anymore, However, it IS us gays who will be the root of ruining marriages all over the world. My parents did a fine job of ruining their own WITHOUT my help one bit. So the arguement that “we” will ruin marriages as we know them makes me wonder HOW and WHY??? Seems folks have enough of their OWN issues in their OWN marriages, but again we HAVE to have someone to blame… so if us gays want to get into a committed relationship and have the opportunity to get divorced, why shouldn’t we be allowed that same misery and insanity that some 50% of heterosexuals suffer from? Don’t misunderstand here, I know so MANY, MANY people who ARE very happily married, however, they too, are the ones that say to Steph’s and my face, “we don’t understand how YOUR (Bret and Steph) marriage would affect ours in anyway, shape or form?” It seems to me (and this is ONLY my humble opinion) those who ARE happily married, secure in their relationships and their own sexual identity have NO problems with Steph and I having even a civil union. And IF Steph and I have “the power” to destroy someone else’s happiness in their marriage, it seems THEY have the problem. We’ve spent thousands of dollars to cover our backsides… create Trusts, Wills, Durable power of attorney both medical and financial, just to protect what little we have put together in the past 19 years. And living in the MOST backwards state in the Union, Arizona, I don’t doubt, we will be the first state to lock folks like me and Steph up in a huge fenced in area waiting for us to die off!! Now there is some emotion for YOU Prof!!! Don’t laugh, there actually is a minister on TV that just two weeks ago (I believe he is in one of the Carolina’s) that wants to do JUST THAT… lock us all up in a 100 square mile “cage” so that we can’t reproduce (what a joke, we can’t anyway,), besides it WAS straight parents that gave birth to us anyway, and he wants us to just die off therefore ALL the problems of the world would die off with us!!! He IS preaching this live on TV!! I won’t repeat what Sass called him, but it was pretty funny and mighty accurate. I’ll let her explain for herself as that was written to me in a private message and those are sacred in my book. Truth is Prof, IF I do not find the humor in all of this, I’d just lay down and die. How’s that for a stereo type of mela-drama??? In all seriousness, I do have to find the humor in it. The irony is one of our more famous TV evangelist who was out paying for sex with a male escort all the while on TV telling the world what horrible people we are and how IF we don’t repent, hell is going to get us. I truly feel for this human being. And that is exactly what he is, human. He doesn’t even understand himself what is going on inside of him, I really feel for him. Actually, my heart breaks for him, it really does Prof. He must be suffering something fierce Prof. My heart aches for him AND his family. I’m on a tangent here, sorry. I just happen to find the irony of your article too funny and the irony of my parents didn’t stay married as long as Steph and I have been together. Everyone’s marriage is their OWN responsibility… and they have to face thier challenges, but to say that Steph and I together is going to destroy the sanctity of marriage… blah, no comment.

You do good Prof… like I said, even if it’s just you and me, we’ll do it together. Or if the admins/mods find it’s just us, they’ll probably ask us to take it to private messages. And that’s fine too. You do make me laugh Prof!! And I don’t know if I would even notice if you were being a “clod.” I think that’s what you referred yourself to…?? Edited: Sorry it was “clot” that you called yourself, never heard that term before, but I had heard of “clod.” My “smilies” and stuff isn’t working… :frowning: and I don’t know how to fix it??? It says they are ON, but IF I click on one it erases all that I’ve written, maybe that’s a sign from God that I shouldn’t be writing, or maybe that I just shouldn’t be using “smilies.”

Just know that you ARE loved AND appreciated, (by many here)
Bret

P.S Edited now the 2nd time… the smilies seem to be working and I didn’t even push the button, I just made a sad face with a colon and a parenthesies… heck I CANNOT spell!!! I’m messed up!!! LOL

Hey guys, I’m still here, just following along. :slight_smile:

Bret, you certainly haven’t scared me off. :slight_smile:

And Prof, you’re doing good bro. :slight_smile:

I’ll try to chime in when I can and when I feel like I have something more to say, but just know that I’m still listening in. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you both :slight_smile:

  • Matt

Hey guys

I’m here too! Like Matt, I’m just following along, enjoying the ride. :smiley:

Bret – it sounds like your Carolina preacher would have fitted in very nicely at the trial of Oscar Wilde, who as I’m sure you know was imprisoned for the ‘crime’ of what was then known as sodomy. Apparently the judge at Wilde’s trial said in his summing up:

“People who can do these things must be dead to all sense of shame… It is the worst case I have ever tried … I shall, under such circumstances, be expected to pass the severest sentence that the law allows. In my judgment it is totally inadequate for such a case as this. The sentence of the Court is that … you be imprisoned and kept to hard labour for two years.”

Pat Robertson would have been proud! :smiling_imp:

But seriously, this does actually go to show that despite some of the things we have discussed on this thread, we really have made a lot of great progress in recent years. I mean, homosexuality was illegal in Britain until 1967 – and had been for the previous 400 years, thanks to that well-known champion of human rights and religious freedom, King Henry VIII, under whose reign being gay became a crime punishable by hanging. Cheers Henry.

But it is a fact that equal rights for LGBT people have come on in leaps and bounds in recent years. Don’t get me wrong, there’s still a long way to go, especially in the Church. But refreshingly, recent polls suggest that a sizeable majority of Christians in the UK – something like 70% - actually support gay marriage.

So it’s not all bad news. :smiley:

And randomly, something else which has just occurred to me is the relationship between David and Jonathan in the Bible. David was grief-stricken when Jonathan pegged out, as is recorded in 1 Samuel 1:25-26:

“How the mighty have fallen in battle!
Jonathan lies slain on your heights.
I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother;
you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful,
more wonderful than that of women.”

Did the two of them have a gay relationship, I wonder? What do you think Prof? (You know you’re stuck with that moniker now, don’t you Dick? :laughing: )

Peace and love to all

Johnny

I’m still here. I do think it’s important to lay out the Biblical case. I personally have never done an exhaustive bible study on it and leaned toward the “Bible condemns it” view. I DO think that at least in a SUPERFICIAL WAY, it does condemn it. It didn’t matter if I agreed personally, that’s what the bible taught, that’s that. I didn’t really believe that meant “I” should condemn it though. I had considered the “progressive revelation” view as mentioned and having known gay people, and how complex the issue was, I felt that it wasn’t something I knew enough about to say for certain either way. Regardless, the way I TREAT people was never a question, so in my mind, it didn’t matter.

Anyway, the article Dick posted and e-mailed me, did for the first time make me see the possibility that the “Bible condems it” view may not be as nailed down as I thought. And whatever the truth is…It’s what I want. Hope I am making sense…I’m in a hurry, playing trivia with me mates at the pub tonight!

Sass

Hi Bret –

(‘Cot’ and ‘clod’ are the same ). I’ve got a number of people to get back to here. But first I’d just like to share some thoughts about what I’d say to the TV evangelists you’ve cited in your posts.

Cause and effect

The idea that the Twin Towers was a punishment on America for tolerating gay people is obviously absurd. This means that God was using the suicide bombers as a tool for his vengeance – and that’s a funny sort of God as far as I can see.

If God was anywhere on 9/11 he was in the courage of the rescue and medical services, and the love and heroism shown by the doomed, and he was grieving too with the bereaved. I also think God was there in other ways – for example in the gentle protection provided by Jews and Catholics who made a ring of care around the central mosque in New York on the Friday of that week as a gesture of protection to innocent Muslims at Friday prayers from potential scapegoating. That’s the sort of God who Jesus was showing us when replying to questions about the Galileans whose blood Pilate ‘mingled with their sacrifices’ (a point that James Alison with passionate clarity in the full essay).

This way of looking at disaster is not new. In the Second World War Martyn Lord Jones, a sectarian Calvinist, saw the German bombs raining on England as god’s retribution; others later on saw the bombs that rained upon Dresden as god’s just vengeance and the bombs that obliterated Nagasaki and Hiroshima too. ‘So whose side was God on?’ is the question any reasonable person would want to ask. Well , in my view, God is on everyone’s side and grieves when we go to war – and God is on the side of the innocent victims of war. But God is not in our bombs –and even bombs dropped to end a worse evil (if we think this is possible) are not God’s bombs – they are simply the lesser of two evils. Any other meaning given to bombs – including the bombs of suicide bombers - is blasphemy against the God of life in the name of a god of death,

Likewise the stuff about gays begin responsible for Hurricane Katrina or the Californian earthquakes is absurd – it’s a massive misunderstanding of cause and effect. Both events other causes – completely natural ones which, while not preventable, we can be sensible and make plans to lessen their impact.

Again any notion of disease being a scourge from God does not stack up in my view. In the middle of the nineteenth century – for example – evangelicals in the UK Parliament prescribed national days of fasting and humiliation to ward off a cholera epidemic. The problem was solved by proper sanitation and sewerage systems rather than this. AIDS seemed to almost be welcomed by the fundamentalist firebrands. But AIDS had a purely natural cause, and is treatable now, if not curable. What do the fundamentalists think about science and medicine? Were the people who did the research into AIDS blasphemers against God’s vengeful purposes? If so, why didn’t God smite them to? Indeed, do these people think that the whole enterprise of scientific research is ‘satanic’ in preventing opportunities for God to vent his wrath. And is God really like this? If he is we need to go back to a very basic subsistence society without medicine or technology to live closer to his will/whim. Or we need to start believing in a God who does not envy us for emerging from archaic and childish fears.

The linking of natural disasters, and social breakdown with God’s vengeance has gone on throughout history. For example, the witch hunts in early modern Europe saw women – ‘insatiable in their lusts like hyenas’ as the witch hunting manual describes them– as the cause of crop failure and famine etc; and they killed them in large numbers especially most stricken by famine and war. All the evidence suggest that a lot of the ‘witches ‘were put no trial because neighbours were selling old scores about land disputes, family feuds etc. The whole dynamic of the witch trials was scapegoating – false accusation in times of scarcity, war, and pestilence leading to ‘human sacrifice’ aided and abetted by the mob. And the witches, like Jews, like heretics, like gay people today –were always described in terms of a contagion that needed to be contained and eliminated. And the ‘contagious’ groups are always slandered for being insatiable in their lusts.

The Bible is a text in travail – of course we can cite texts that support the idea of God being behind death dealing and therefore seeing death dealing as the work of God in His righteousness and holiness. But is this the picture that emerges slowly and painfully in the great Prophets and lucidly in the words and deeds of Jesus? I think not – and TV evangelists making false correlations abut gay people and disasters should think again about what the fullness of the Gospel of Christ is. They only make the Gospel a laughing stock (see Deborah Ross’s article above - I can well understand why she wrote as she did). And we note that the main text for God’ vengeance being visited on gay people – Sodom and Gomorrah – is actually about the abuse of hospitality if you read the story properly, and if you look at how it is interpreted elsewhere in the Bible – including the sayings of Jesus – and by the majority of the Church Fathers (including our man Origen, as I found out yesterday)

The Carolina Evangelist

As far as the TV evangelist from Carolina is concerned – I think it’s obviously the same God he and I are talking about in some sense because a God who tolerates riff raff scum like me must also be the God who tolerates riff raff scum like him.
I’d say that this man is obviously contributing to great distress by his pronouncements to a friend of mine who is gay and lives in the same Sate as he holds his wrathful court in. My friends life is difficult enough anyway because of civil law arrangements in the same Sate and casual prejudice – so I don’t look upon this man as a pal of mine.

I’d also say that IMHO any person can have ‘exciting’ beliefs about what God will do in the future – since none of us know the final outcome of God’s judgements anyway. But we must love our enemies – and I will try to e loving to him (at least as a theoretical exercise). Yes in the USA, a free country, anyone is entitled to express their views/opinions about God’ character. However, when someone starts shooting their mouth off about public policy initiatives on the basis of purely theoretical beliefs, I think the First amendment should be invoked against them.

Talking about constructing camps to quarantine gay people is, to say the least, in poor taste, and, to say the most, an incitement to hatred and violence. It is too reminiscent of concentration camps to be comfortable – and I note that many thousands of homosexuals perished in Hitler’s camps alongside the Jews. So I’m not going to be swayed by suggestions that this preacher is a fellow Christian so I should be gentle with him – he actually speaks up for the Satanic lie.

I daresay our preacher is hot on ‘family values’ I note that these have often been made into an excuse for cruelty and state idolatry – Augustus did it in Rome, as Hitler did in Germany. The family is wonderful gift of God and should be celebrated and encouraged and supported; but there are several sayings of Jesus that suggest that we should not see it as our absolute and only moral reference point – for all good things can be spoiled. Is it right to marginalise all people who are not productive in the biological order – single people (like me!!!), barren women and impotent men, people with mental health and physical disabilities, gay people? I don’ think this is the real message of Christianity somehow.

I daresay our preacher will also say that homosexuality is unnatural. Well the scientific evidence that is emerging goes against this view. Perhaps he might also say that it is against decent civil order. Well the widespread existence of stable gay relationships gives the lie to this (and many heterosexuals have very unstable relationships and do things that go against ‘decent civil order’).

Blessings

Dick

If I’ve made any unintentional points of annoyance above - forgive me and ask for clarification.

Hey Prof!!!

Well, I’m so glad you ARE still around on this topic!!! You’ve made my day! And no, you have not annoyed or said anything offensive at all… I’m answering you because you addressed this last post to me. You may have offended someone who does NOT believe such as you and I. I feel that would be their responsibility to speak up and express themselves AND to tell us why. I’m with you on something you said in another of your posts and that is that WE don’t want to scapegoat others for their differing beliefs. That is NOT the point. I come back to, it’s HOW we deal with each other… with respect, common courtesy, and Christ-like love. If we can’t agree than at least we should be able to agree to disagree politely and with mutual respect. I will guard other people’s privilage to speak up even if they do disagree, but to have insults hurled through cyber-space at each other is unacceptable in my book. I pray that I do NOT go there, EVER. I do not want to marginalize someone else because their point of view is different than mine.

And all that you said about natural disaster’s, etc., makes perfect sense to me. I’ve not had it put so precisely before however. Listen Prof, after one has lived as long as I have being gay, one becomes used to it or almost desensitized to it. Not quite though. It would hurt way worse if someone on this board was saying things like the minister in the Carolina’s. TV evangelists do what they do, say what they say, and I think the best solution for ME is to just plain pray FOR them. Nothing specific, but just that they would have love, joy, peace, and harmony with their Creator. That they would be blessed. That is the ONLY way I have found for MYSELF to avoid resentments. And for me, resentments are a huge factor in keeping ME away from God/Christ and living the life that I want to live. My Dad used to refer to that type of living (letting someone else control my thoughts and actions) as, “giving them FREE rent in my head!” I can actually get myself so worked up that I no longer “act,” I REACT!!! And that’s not pretty. I’ve done that here a time or two and I can honestly say I’m ashamed of my words or the fact that I “reacted” insteaded of acted. So we will have to let the ministers, the TV evangelists, the people with differing opinions all be who they are and basically pray for them. Isn’t that what Jesus did when He said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do?” In a nutshell, I’m just saying I’d rather live in forgiveness than in resentment. I’m much happier and I’m more enjoyable to be around. That isn’t to say that “our” way of thinking is correct and that someone else’s is not… I’m not saying I need to forgive them for thinking differently, it’s the abusive stuff I’m referring to… does that make sense??? I hope so because I’m NOT saying that how you and I believe is the ONLY way to think and believe and that others who think differently are wrong, they just have a different view point is all. And God IS with them as much as He is with us. So I hope I clarified myself a bit here. I don’t want to come off as having THE answer, I do NOT. I just want to be able to live in peace and harmony with each other, differencs and all.

Thank you once again for YOUR insight… you the man Prof!!

Love,
Bret

Bless you Bret

that’s all very fine :smiley:

love

Dick

I’ll work forward now with the other posts –

Hi Michael –

I’m so glad you liked my appreciation o f the C of E (I presume you mean the one at the bottom of the first page of this thread) and it was really kind of you to show your appreciation. My appreciation was more heartfelt because of my divided loyalties between the C of E and the Quakers I guess (something that I at least can reconcile).
I know Erasmus, the Dutch Christian Humanist, was enormously influential on the spirit of the Church of England, as he was in sense the spiritual father of the Anabaptist Spiritual movement from which the Quakers emerged. I am reminded that once Luther declared to him –‘ you and your peace and love theology – you don’t care for the truth’. But Erasmus did care for the truth and replied – ‘what happens to truth when men are embroiled in wars of religion’ and also wrote
How can you say ‘our Father’ if you plunge steel into the guts of your brother? Christ compared himself to a hen; Christians behave like hawks. Christ was a shepherd of ship; Christians tear each other like Wolves…
(Erasmus: Complaint of Peace)

And I think we need more of Christ the hen and less of the hawk in debates about gay relationships. (Mind you ersamus di have a wicked sense of hunmour for highlithintg absurdit adn supersutious error, but he laughed rather than advocating violence)

Very good to meet you Michael :smiley:

Hi Matt –
I always know you are reading even when you are not posting and always think of you when writing :smiley: . Your input is vital here – with a great post to your name and just knowing you are there. I think Bret and I can rest merry that the conversation is never just between he and I – and threads go through seasons of interest if they are long running.

Hi Johnny –

I’m gonna have to have a think and do a separate ‘Prof Post’ on the issues you’ve raised :unamused: :ugeek: . Give me a day or so. :smiley:

Hi Sass –

Hope you had a wonderful time (and have you ever tried English beer – this is becoming a running joke between Andy and myself!). You want the Bible to allow you to affirm gay relationships because you know and love gay people – you’ve already reached out to ‘the stranger’. People quoted the Bible against Jesus when he reached out to strangers on the margins of society – so you are in the very best of company in my view. :smiley:

Love and blessings to all

Dick

LOL that quote of David’s really does sound “suspect” (as people termed this sort of thing a few years back), though it’s also possible he was saying they were always (again as the saying goes, i am not trying to be offensive) “bro’s before ho’s” :laughing:
but this makes me think of what someone at the meetup you unfortunately missed said about how some ancient warriors used to think of sex with women as mere procreation that one had to do before getting back to “proper sex with men”
i am just mentioning this to be light hearted about it all, but i think the fact that many ancient cultures evidently thought along these lines (or at least some dominant cultures), and again it makes me wonder why, in light of that, it was not ever unambiguously condemned, if God was so upset about it. it’s possible the Apostles didn’t like it, but it’s also possible they had “bigger fish to fry”, like social injustice, the poor and spreading the Gospel.
funny that we go from that low-key response in the Bible and leap to the current rabid response by many evangelicals, the Catholics (not all, but the current pope appears fairly anti-gay), and even our otherwise wonderful C of E, as if suddenly this “moral issue” is the BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE EVER FACED!!!
hmm, something wrong there.

dunno if i’m saying anything i haven’t said before, but am just mainly wanting to say i am also enjoying the ride. looking forward to the Prof unpacking some of the New Testament verses.

also i am loving the stuff about scape goating religious practice. this really seems to me to be the crux of pagan belief…one must appease the forces that be by offering this scapegoat, which embodies everything “we” are not.
God through Christ seems to demonstrate a totally different approach…He goes hunting for that reject, that lost lamb, and He brings it home, and He cares for it, and He throws a party saying “LOOK!!! i have found my lost lamb! rejoice with me, for it was dead and is alive again.” for He is the good shepherd, and each sheep in His flock is precious, even if it’s the black sheep, or a spotted sheep or a gay sheep. heck, He even loves this headbanging sheep who is currently typing this rambling bit of text.

Thank you Dick! Yes you are right on my reference, and tonight I have been reading this second page. I am truly overwhelmed by the love and generosity that vibrates through the whole page.

Blessings!

Michael in Barcelona

What Michael in Barcelona said!!! :wink: I agree whole-heartedly AND this time around, thank God, it has taken on a whole NEW tone… one of love and grace… just sayin’ I’m REAL grateful!!

Hello all,

I’ve been absent from the forum for a bit now, and popped in yesterday to look around. I found myself fascinated with this thread, and am so incredibly impressed with the tone and level of intelligence and honesty with which this topic is being discussed.

I have a couple of quick points I’d like to comment upon:

1.) Bret’s mention of some people’s use of the phrase, “wanting to stay in your sin.” My experience has been that this response seems to be a default position used when someone really doesn’t want to take a diligent look and discussion into deeper meanings of scripture, and even more so, a deeper look into themselves. I’ve heard that phrase from people in the church in which I was raised used regarding alcohol (the more conservative faction of that church has a long history of being involved in the temperance movement in the US, and tends to regard any amount of drinking as sinful.) As Johnny noted, it is actually all about them and their internal dissonances, and it’s used when one considers someone to be doing something that infringes upon the purity/contamination boundary.

2.) The Three-Fifths Compromise. On its face, it is certainly abominable to devalue any human in such a way. In actuality, it was a tool being used against slavery. The abolitionist states wanted to lessen the number of representatives sent by slave-holding states to Congress. The slave states wanted all their slaves to be counted fully, which would have increased their voting power immensely (but with representation only for slave-holders, and not the slaves), and made any sort of legislation against slavery impossible. The two sides agreed upon this compromise offered by the abolitionists, without which the Constitution could not have been ratified, and slavery in the US may well have lasted much longer.

It’s very heartening to see the members here putting Christ’s words, “Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice” into action in this discussion. I’ve been re-thinking all of my beliefs through the lens of that phrase lately. Learning about “mercy, not sacrifice” can be a painful journey into some scary places in one’s heart, and in the collective heart of congregations.

Blessings to you all, and thank you for such an enlightening and compassionate discussion on this topic.

Eric’s very appropriate reference to our God being a God desiring mercy and not sacrifice :smiley: is a really good cue to plonk something else about Girard here (It’s some notes I name a few years back, a lot of which are based on articles by Mark Stein). This is the gospel for non-scapegoaters – and I hope some will find it stimulating and see its relevance to the topic.

(I want to post it in memory of Alan Turing. I see from Google that it is the 100th anniversary of his birth today. He was the brilliant mathematician who cracked the Enigma code used by the Nazis during the war. Without his efforts Britain would almost certainly have lost the Battle of Britain – and Churchill acknowledged that no single person had made a greater contribution to the war effort than Alan Turing. Turing was also gay. Soon after the war there was a burglary at this house, and he had to tell the police that his gay lover was in bed with him when this took place. He then faced a choice of imprisonment or chemical castration. He chose the latter and the process seems to have contributed to his suicide).

**An understanding of the relationship between the Bible and the myths found throughout the cultures of the world is central to Girard’s thinking. Thinkers from the pagan philosophers who debated with Christian apologists in the 2nd century, to Joseph Campbell in the 20th have pointed out that the kernel of the Christian story - the sacrificial victim who is revealed as being divine - is also found extensively in the myths of other religions. Therefore, they have argued that the Christian story, far from being unique, is no more than the re-telling of an archetypal myth. Indeed, this view has been influential in strands of Liberal Christianity.

Girard’s extensive research in comparative mythology, literature and anthropology has led him to a very different conclusion. For him, the story of the divine sacrifice is none other than the disguised story of the murder of the scapegoat – the original founding act of human communities that is ’the thing hidden since the foundation of the world’. Girard argues that whereas in the myths of the world the story is told from the point of view of the lynch mob concealing the sordid truth of the murder of the innocent victim, in the Bible the same story is told from the perspective of the victim. Thus the mechanisms of human violence that generate the lynching are unmasked and ‘demythologised’

To illustrate Girard’s point I’m going to tell you a story (nicked from Mark Heim)- .

*Christ – the sacred lamb sent by God – visited a great city in the form of a swarthy stranger from a distant province, in order to call back those who had fallen into ignorance. He did many acts of power and the people worshipped him and made him their king. He taught them how he would become God’s son.

However, in those days there was turmoil in the city, each house was set against another; and so Christ prepared his final wonder.

One day he called to him Mary, his mother and his dearest disciple. He went with her into the temple and ate bread in the holy of holies that no person is to touch. Then he lay with his mother near the altar throughout the night. The earth shook, many in the city were stricken with a deadly disease, and the people were afraid.

In the morning the people came to the temple seeking to know what evil had been done to bring these troubles upon them. They found nothing but the smallest mustard seed carrying the entirety of divinity within it. All the people were greatly distressed at this and were seized with trance-like awe. With one spirit, they rushed to form a great procession and carried the seed to a stony hill outside the walls of the city. Each person, without exception, threw stones in to cover it.

Miraculously the seed immediately grew up into a great tree, and Christ himself was the fruit of that tree. All who ate of this fruit discovered the joy of eternal life. The people returned to the city rejoicing; and health and peace ruled again in those walls. And they worshiped at Christ’s tree of life in every generation.*

This story has all of the features of a myth of the sacrificial victim. We note that Christ is a stranger and therefore bears one of the archetypal marks of a potential victim. There is an unresolved crisis of rivalry in the City – and conflict and crisis are always the context for sacrifice in myth. Christ commits heinous acts of sacrilege in the Temple and this results in a plague (the implication being that he is guilty as the source of pollution and the cause of the crisis – as in the mob’s view he is). His expulsion and death at the hands of the mob is not referred to explicitly. Rather, it is covered up in the sanitised euphemism of the crowd’s procession with the seed and their ritual placing of the stones over the seed. This use of euphemism is another hallmark of myth and is not entirely propaganda – once they return to normal life, the individuals who form the crowd feel genuinely disconnected from the violence they have done in a unified frenzy. It is as if a wrathful god has visited them while they were in a trance. This ‘misrecognition’ results in misrepresentation. Peace returns after Christ is killed; and, paradoxically, the source of pollution becomes a source of blessing and Christ becomes a divinity. This all accords with universal pattern of narrative myth but it is unnecessary for me to point out to you that is not what we find in the Bible.

‘What myths hide, the Bible reveals’ and Girard points out that the vindication of the victims of the scapegoating is there in the Hebrew Bible from the start. Abel’s murder cries out to heaven. Joseph is cast out by his envious brothers – but is vindicated by God (and events). Crowds also unite against the victim in the servant songs of Second Isaiah, as they do against Jeremiah, Job and the narrators of the penitential psalms. However, in none of these instances is there any attempt at a ‘cover-up’. The story is told from the point of view of the victims who are vindicated by Yahweh. Indeed the murder of the very first victim - Abel – whose murder is the thing hidden since the foundation of the world – cries out for vindication.

Of course, the voice of the victim is not the only voice in the Hebrew Bible – we also have the ideology of the Hebrew sacrificial cult, which Girard would admit does contain mythological elements. As he says, ‘the Bible is a text in travail’ In Hebraic sacrifice, an animal was substituted for the human victim. However, if the ritual went wrong the priest could become the victim as happens, for example, to Aaron’s sons in Leviticus. This is portrayed as an instance of the descent of ‘the wrath of God’. However, it is not difficult to discern that what is actually being related is an event in which rivalry in the community becomes so intense that the sacrifice of an animal is not effective and there is a frenzied reversion to human sacrifice as a safety valve for human wrath. Indeed, Girard argues that the bible is a text in travail in which t

The later prophets repudiate the notion of redemptive sacrifice completely, telling the people of Israel that Yahweh despise the stench of their burnt offerings and requires works of justice and mercy of them instead. However, Girard argues that even in the most progressive texts of the Old Testament such as the fourth Servant Song in Second Isaiah there is ambiguity. Sometimes the crowd is presented as the sole instigator of the persecution but sometimes Yahweh is also implicated.

It is in the New Testament that Girard sees the complete unmasking of the scapegoating mechanism, and an accounting for ‘the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world’ (Luke 11:50-51). Now it is Christ who is the innocent victim against whom the mob unanimously unites. However, his vindication is complete through his resurrection; and it is through this resurrection that those who joined in with the lynch mob (Peter through his denials and Paul through being the instigator of persecution) are able to see the truth without myth/satanic lies, and live according to the order of life rather than the order of death.

The Gospels also unmask the anatomy of human destructiveness that makes scapegoating necessary. The Greek word Skandalon occurs many times in the New Testament, especially in Matthew’s Gospel. It has a richer and more nuanced meaning than the English word ‘scandal’ and is best translated as ‘stumbling-block’ rather than ‘moral offence’. It implies an addictive process of overwhelming compulsion. The unavoidable obstacle’ both attracts and repels each time we stumble against it (and each time we do this we suffer progressive psychic damage). For Girard this term encapsulates what happens during the process of rivalry; it speaks of the core of our human problems – of our ‘anthropology’.

When two people desire the same thing they become each other’s ‘stumbling blocks’. As rivalry escalates, the contested object of desire becomes forgotten and the antagonists become fascinated with each other instead. The more they block each other’s desire, the more they imitate each other. In effect, they become each other’s ‘Doubles’ as mutual fascination gives way to envy, indignation, and hatred and – in the end – to annihilating violence (hence the repeated motif of warring twins in world mythology and to a certain extent in the early books of the Bible). However, the more they become ‘the same’ in their actions, the less they can see the violence in themselves. Each only sees the violence in the other.

On a number of occasions in the Gospels, Jesus warns the disciples with great severity and in quite shocking language against the dangers of scandals. A pivotal example comes in Matthew’s Gospel when Jesus first predicts his violent death at the hands of the worldly powers (Matthew 16: 21-23), and Peter protests that this must not happen. This suggests that Peter believes his Master should be capable of beating these worldly powers at their own game on their own terms (a temptation that Jesus has already struggled against and rejected in the wilderness). Jesus rebukes him harshly with ‘Get behind me Satan; you are a skandalon to me.

Girard’s interpretation of this is that instead of imitating Jesus, Peter is expecting Jesus to imitate him. If Jesus succumbs to this temptation, it will probably initiate a cycle of infighting in which he and Peter become rivals for the leadership of a politicised messianic movement. However, Jesus, who has God the Father as his model of how to live, has nothing to do with violence and antagonistic desire. He shows the way to live a life free of the scandals that generate violence. However, if we instead choose possessive and antagonistic models we choose the ‘satan’ as our model who is scandal personified: hence, Jesus’ harsh rebuke to Peter.

Jesus question, ‘How can Satan cast out Satan’ (Mark 3:23) suggests the answer ‘He does this through the scapegoat mechanism. Satan is the instigator of the scandals that force communities to disintegrate – but also provides the mechanism for their pseudo-resolution. In exposing the mythical lie, Christ becomes a focus of division rather than reconciliation. In the Gospel of John Jesus testifies to the God of love who has nothing to do with our ‘sacred’ mechanisms of expulsion, violence and death – and yet everything he does has a divisive effect. Likewise, in Matthew 10:34 Jesus says, ‘’ I have not come to bring peace but a sword’’. Girard comments on this that ‘if the only peace humanity has ever enjoyed depends on unconscious victimisation, the consciousness that the Gospels bring into the world can only destroy it’. In this connection, he sees the apocalyptic dimension in the New Testament not as an alien element but as a revelation of the turmoil we need to go through as scandals proliferate, to reach a peace beyond the peace of victimisation.

Very importantly, Jesus’ death is described as a skandalon. Before the passion drama begins, Jesus warns his disciples – and especially Peter – that they will become skandalizien by him. An ironic reading immediately suggests itself – Jesus who has lived and taught us how to live without scandal is being made the scapegoat for scandals. For Girard this use of skandalizien also confirms that the force at work in the scapegoat lynch mob - in which violence spreads like wildfire through what Girard terms ‘mimetic contagion’- is indeed the same as the violence at work in mimetic rivalries between individuals. It is a type of violence that makes everyone the same, everyone blind. The crowd turned into a unified mob in the Passion narratives is a tinderbox of complex and envious rivalries for power both within and between groups comprised of rebels, collaborators and the occupying forces. The death of Jesus prevents a riot and brutal reprisals through its cathartic effect. The mob disperses peacefully. At the end of his Passion narrative Luke writes, ‘’And Herod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other’’ (Luke 23:12). However, this camaraderie is a ‘satanic’ parody of Christian reconciliation being the cathartic effect of the scapegoat ritual.

Any reading of the atonement informed by Girard’s ideas will be non-sacrificial. Certainly

Christians say ‘blood shed for us’ but they mean blood shed once for all. They say ‘We are reconciled in his blood’, but they mean we are freed to live without the reconciliation that requires the blood of the scapegoat- victims of such acts will never be invisible again – they look too much like Jesus. We can turn to finding a new basis for peace, such as that found around the communion table. **

Thanks Eric!!! :smiley:

Johnny - will have a chat about the very niteresting questions of whehter gay relationships actually can be seen in the Bible - and if not ,why not? - when we meet. I reckon that’s a very good issue to take up when we’ve looked at the relvant New Testatment texts (which everyone is champing at the bit about :laughing:)

Warm regards and blessings to all

Dick

Hi Johnny –

It’s funny you should mention Oscar Wilde. He endured his hard labour punishment in Reading Jail for homosexuality with fortitude and great dignity. I know that his reflections on this ’De Profundis’ (‘Out of the depths *’ alluding to the Penitential Psalms) has been seen as an inspirational work by some Christians, although I’ve not read it. But I do remember hearing a dramatisation of his children’s story ‘The Selfish Giant’ when very young, in which a giant will not let the children play in his garden but is moved to repentance by his encounter with the wounded Christ child; this story moved me profoundly.

Funny about our ‘Enry the Eight’ :imp: too. Yes that lecherous, paranoid monster of cruelty :imp: :imp: :imp: was responsible for bringing in legislation to make sodomy a capital offence in England – so ‘judge not’ in case you find yourself in very disreputable company I say. I understand that although one of the Christina Roman Emperor’s had also brought in similar legislation, on the whole, until the early modern period the Church – East and West – did not see ‘sodomy’ as a crime but rather as a sin like other sins of the flesh and sins against charity (some penitential manuals view it as a serious sin requiring serious penance, while others treat it more tolerantly/leniently). I know that Richard the Lion-heart had to do penance for this ‘sin’ to cleanse himself for the Third Crusade, in which he committed dreadful sins for which the Church did not require him to do penance (like the massacre of Acre).

I also know that the last public hanging in England – in a prison courtyard in the mid-nineteenth century – was of a man condemned for ‘sodomy’; and I’ve noted on another thread that what struck me as so terribly sad was that no family or friends turned up to wish him goodbye and to comfort him.

Regarding the love of David and Jonathan – other strong same sex affections are celebrated in the Old Testament too – David and Saul, Ruth and Naomi. I hope you don’t mind if we park this one – because it’s a very interesting topic and links to other issues of relevance (like can we say anything about Jesus attitude to homosexuality, even though he never mentions it explicitly etc). But we move onwards to what St Paul has to say next – because that’s what everyone seems to want at the moment. And then we return to the really interesting stuff?

Hi James –

‘Bros before Hos’ – very saucy :laughing: Yes the homoerotic context of ideal love in the classical world is something worth looking at later. I know that in Ancient Athens regiments of homosexual soldiers (in lovers in arms together) were sent into the thick of battle – because lovers fight more bravely opt defied each other’s bodies (or so the theory went). I also know that Plato’s Symposium – from which we derive the term ‘Platonic Love’ – has a purely homoerotic context; which is curious because this Philosophical dialogue is the well spring of much of our sentiments about romantic heterosexual love in Christian Western Culture.

Glad you found the stuff about paganism thought provoking :slight_smile: . I hope the previous post has clarified matters even more – and I will return to Girard again at some point to say more about his theory of desire (good and bad desire, human and Divine desire).

Love the idea of you as a head banging sheep!!! :laughing:
Hi Michael –

I’m amazed at how good this thread is too. We are all doing famously I reckon – and that includes you and Eric who have just joined and must stick around!!! :smiley:

Hi Bret –

That was a very fine post about ‘faith beyond resentment’ that you wrote :smiley: . I reckon as soon as we get on to Paul conversation will break out again – and perhaps we can include people who talked about Paul early on in the thread (I’m certainly going to read through those earlier posts again).

Hi Eric –

I found the stuff on the Three fifths Compromise absolutely fascinating – and I think you are right to draw the parallel between slavery and the persecution of gay people; they are both examples of systemic scapegoating in my view. And I wonder if there will be a parallel to the Three Fifths Compromise concerning civil partnership legislation in the USA :nerd: ?

Completely agree with you (and Johnny) about ‘wanting to stay in your own sin’ – I reckon the ‘scandal’ here may also have something to do with repressed envy, rivalrous desire perhaps?, (although I haven’t; really thought this through).

Blessings to all

Old BossyBoots (who keeps the conversation on simmer)*

Just a quick comment on ‘bros not hos’. It is a funny thing, in my experience, how those of us who are heterosexual men are kind of socialised to feel a certain embarrassment about developing emotional bonds with each other, even when this affection has nothing much to do with sexual desire. It’s kind of ‘sissy’. And I have observed often that our way of coping with this is to make quips about not being gay. I’ve got a working class Geordie friend – who is in no way homophobic – but every expression of fondness to another man, and he’s an affectionate friend, has to be qualified with a quip about sexuality.

Oh well – heterosexual men are funny insecure creatures – forgive us in our discomfort – it’s the way we was ‘brung up’ :blush: .

Blessings

Dick