The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Opinions on this article please?

Well I’m staying in tonight – so just some further thoughts before Paul (developing on my previous post)
I think one of the problems we have with talking about love, affection, sexuality etc. is that we don’t have a proper language to be emotionally literate about it, and to be specific about what we mean.

There are some hints in the Bible about different kinds of love – but no fully developed theology. The subject has always been of interest to Christina humanists – and I’d place C.S. Lewis’ ‘The Four Loves’ squarely in the Christian Humanist tradition along with other discussions of Eros and Agape by contemporary Christian scholars. I note that the Calvinist inspired scholar Anders Nyrgen kicked the modern debate off by arguing that all love come from God and the idea that human being can love in a way that is worth serious consideration doesn’t hold water – well here speaks the anti-humanist tradition.

However those Christians of the mainstream ‘synergist’ tradition – who would agree that we can love because God first loved us - still want to assert that we are made in the image of God so love – however in need of improvement and transformation – is intrinsic to our nature; and in some sense our desire collaborates with God’s desire in our salvation. They often turn to the many Ancient Greek definitions of love to clarify what is going on.

Here’s a sketch of one possible typology - a bit of a ‘mish-mash’, but it will do for the moment.

Epithyma – is the word for lust. Its the sexual urge in its most impersonal and potentially depersonalising form

Bios – is the urge to tame lust for the purposes of procreation and bringing up children.

Eros – is desire which takes us out of ourselves and makes us want to unite with something beyond our limited selves, that we take delight in. It is a personalising love. It can be sexual when sex in engaged in with love for the other, to bond in unity with the other. But Eros always wants to transcend itself. It can also be the desire for a specific vocation etc. And in the end, all of our experiences of Eros in this world are leading us to a desire for communion with what s truly loveable – God, who is goodness, beauty and truth.

Phileo – is friendship. Friendship also contains an element of Eros – for our friends delight us; we choose our friends, unlike our family. However, I guess friendship is more sociable than the intensity of pure Eros. Jesus calls us his Friends.

Pragama – is the sort of affectionate respect that can develop between colleagues (and in an arranged marriage in a traditional culuture if things go well).

Agape – is unconditional love that overflows from God for all. When we imitate it as humans it is the sort of love we give without distinctions. It is the sort of respect we can give to an enemy, whatever our feelings of disgust may be towards them. But God desires our friendship and the friendship of all in universal reconciliation.

That’s just a sketch – and it’s the sort of stuff I’d like to ponder at some point after we’ve looked at Paul. All of the ‘loves’ I have described are very loose, overlapping categories. But you get my drift… needs more thought. Any attempt to talk like this about human love is applicable to both gay and straight relationships in different ways, and to every specific relationship in a different way. –

Blessings

Dick

Hi All

Well I hoped that my attack of verbal incontinence yesterday could get us on to a new page!!! Most of what I said was ‘background reading’ nature – so no need to comment on it now. I need to think the stuff on different forms of loving through– there are couple of books I’d like to read since I’m a bit woolly on this debate, and it might be an interesting discussion to have later.

[size=150]Here begins the discussion of the relevant texts in the New Testament [/size]

  • actually we are revisiting the discussion that took place earlier in the thread now

The resource for this leg of the discussion is Benny’s blog from ‘Accepting Evangelicals’ – I like it, Sass finds it informative and well written – even for those who may not agree with it (so that’s two of us). So take your time, have a read, and then post your responses:

acceptingevangelicals.org/20 … d-timothy/

***…This time 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1Timothy 1:10

The Apostle Paul has had quite a bad press in recent years.

As the Church has modernised its attitude to women, some of Paul’s statements have sounded antiquated, even prejudiced. Not allowing women to speak in church is one example that stands out but there are others. Protracted discussions about head-covering, and indeed headship seem a long way from the experience of many Christians today in an age of equality. And that is before we grapple with other enigmatic verses about women being ‘saved by childbearing’!
In some places, this has resulted in some aversion to readings from the Epistles. There have been services where I have almost heard a sharp intake of breath among the congregations when such passages are read in church. The fact that orthodox theologians have felt the need to address this in recent years in books like “Did St Paul get Jesus Right?” shows how deeply this has been felt.

But to succumb to such a point of view is to underestimate and devalue Paul’s contribution to the New Testament in a way which is far from justified. Alongside the few passages which seem to sit uncomfortably alongside modern understandings of society, there are a whole host of other areas where Paul’s radical and inclusive theology blaze a trail for which we should be profoundly grateful.

His uncompromising insistence of salvation through faith alone, freedom from the Law and life in the Spirit, are just some examples which are at the very heart of what it means to be a Christian. His beautiful and universal description of love in 1 Corinthians 13, quoted by people of all faiths and none, deeply inspires us and moves us.

And on a deeply practical level, all men have cause to be deeply grateful to Paul for successfully opposing those who wanted to impose circumcision on male converts to Christ!

The secret to understanding Paul is to discern between theology and cultural practise. Paul’s theology is timeless and reveals to us in wonderful vivid ways the glory of God. His cultural practise on the other hand, is focused within the culture of his day, the culture in which he lived.

The theology we find in Paul’s epistles is truly remarkable. It is the theology of equality – in Christ there is no slave or free, no male or female, no Greek or Jew. It is the theology of equal grace – it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, so that no one may boast. It is the a theology that rejects the constraints of religious law in favour of being led by the Spirit – the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace…. against such things there can be no law. It is the theology of growing in understanding, not religious repression – for now I see in part, I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I am fully known.

We can only be inspired by the love and power of God at work in this most zealous of Pharisees, called while he was a persecutor of the church, and yet who, in God’s grace, became the Apostle to the Gentiles – those outside the people of God, who were dismissed and looked down on by God’s chosen race.

But alongside this, we also see Paul grappling with the cultural issues of his day, and the impact they had upon the new, fragile churches he was writing to. He was writing to a world very different to the one which we observe today. He was writing to a world which accepted slavery as a cultural norm, where spectators revelled in seeing death in the arena, and in which human rights were limited and dependant on political status. He wrote to fledgling Christian communities made up of Jews and Gentiles with very different norms and expectations about what was proper and socially acceptable. He wrote in a world where the religious practises of the vast majority of the population would seem bizarre and alien to us today.

So in the midst of all these issues, he tried to set down norms which would enable these Christian churches to function and grow in the Roman world, and yet not be conformed to it. This is where we find Paul’s pronouncements on the role of women for example – statements that were motivated by considerations of cultural practise rather than expressions of the radical new theology of the Gospel.

He also lived in a world which he did not fully understand. Although he was clearly an educated Jew and a Roman Citizen, his culture was set firmly in the Jewish world, and as he went further and further in his travels across Turkey, into Greece, and ultimately to Rome, we find him grappling with the subtleties of Greek faith and culture as well as Roman politics.
It is within this mix that we find the briefest statements in Romans, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy which appear to address the issue of homosexuality. Today we will look at the 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10.

The first thing to notice is that the word ‘homosexual’ did not exist in Paul’s day. In fact it only begins to appear in the in English language in the 19th century. The concept of homosexual orientation is one which is relatively new in human society. There was certainly homosexual sex in the Greek world which Paul moved through, but that does not mean that monogamous, faithful, committed same-sex relationships were the norm.

Same-sex acts of various kinds existed in the Greek world between teachers and pupils, in the military, in religious worship, and at the gymnasium. Even today scholars find it a huge challenge to try to unravel their complexity and significance.

But this is not the issue that Christians are grappling with today.

The overwhelming majority of gay Christians today are not fighting for the right to indulge in promiscuous, religious, or hedonistic sex. They simply want the church to recognise the same Christian ethic for them as for heterosexual couples, and increasingly want the same structures and sacraments to frame their relationships. This would not have been what Paul saw as he journeyed through the Greco-Roman culture of his day. What he would have been aware of, was the bewildering array of sexual activity which existed – much of which, as a Jew, he would have had little understanding of.
As a result, gay Christians have, for many years, said that they don’t recognise themselves in the things Paul writes about in respect to homosexuality (if indeed we can even call it that). Put simply, the things that Paul condemned are not the things that LGBT Christians aspire to today.

On top of that, there are considerable problems in translating the words which Paul uses. In 1 Corinthians 6:9 we find the verse, often quoted that says,

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (NIV, 1984)

But the words translated as ‘male prostitutes’ and ‘homosexual offenders’ are far from clear in the Greek which Paul wrote. The two words are ‘malakoi’ and ‘arsenokoitai’.

Malakoi also appears in the Gospels. In Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 Jesus asks people what they expected to see when they went to John the Baptist.

What did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces.

The word translated as ‘fine’ is malakoi. More usually it means ‘soft’ and was often used in Greek language to speak disparagingly about people who were soft willed, spineless, or lacking in courage. In English translations, it was not until the 20th Century that malakoi was given a homosexual meaning. What was more common before that, was the meaning found in John Wesley’s Bible Notes. He defines “malakoi” in 1 Corinthians, as those:
“Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship”

Arsenokoitai is even more difficult to unravel. It does not appear in any contemporary Greek texts, and appears for the very first time in 1 Corinthians. One tool in discerning the meaning of words is to observe how they are used in a variety of contexts. In the case of arsenokoitai, we have no contemporary contexts outside of Paul’s writings to compare. The only other use of the word is in 1 Timothy 1:10, where it is translated in the NIV as ‘perverts’:

We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

This lack of comparable examples to cross-reference has prompted many to ask how we can know for sure what Paul meant by it, and how can we translate it with any degree of certainty?

The most likely explanation is that Paul invented the word, by putting together two words from the Greek translation of Leviticus 18:22 which condemns someone ‘who lies with a man as with a woman’. But as we have seen previously, (Bible says No – Part 2) this condemnation was almost certainly linked to religious prostitution and worship of idols. The command was designed to keep Israel separate from the dubious religious practices of the cultures around them, and free from idol worship.

This of course brings us back to what Paul saw in the Greco-Roman world. He would have been aware of same-sex acts in the context of Greek religion, Greek education, Greek gymnasiums – in short ‘Greek Culture’ - and he knew that the church must be kept pure from that in the same way that the holiness code of Leviticus was designed to keep Israel pure from the dubious practises and idol worship of those around them.
So if we can have any degree of certainty about these words, it is that they condemned the Greek expression of same-sex acts , which are very different in context to that of gay men and women today, in loving, committed, faithful, exclusive same-sex relationships.

As we try to unravel 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10, the case against homosexual relationships today becomes less and less clear. The words Paul used are either unclear in their meaning, or are simply not found in other contemporary texts, inside or outside of scriptures. Even Greek scholars find it hard to translate them with any degree of certainty.
I had always been told that ‘homosexual offenders’ in the Bible meant all homosexuals who had sex, regardless of the context, but I now find this impossible to justify. There is a world of difference between a man and a woman having sex together in prostitution, as opposed to marriage, and we would never dream of treating those situations as comparable – so why do we assume that all homosexual sex is condemned in the Bible?
If these verses can be translated in a way which condemns homosexual acts, then the acts they condemn are the wicked, immoral, idolatrous, adulterous expressions which the first part of 1 Corinthians 6:9 refers to – not the self-giving love that we observe today between people of the same sex who genuinely love each other and want to commit their lives to each other before God.***

Hi Prof

I think the blog excerpt you posted gives an excellent ‘overview’ of the issue of homosexuality in Paul. A couple of initial reactions:

According to Yale Professor John Boswell, in his seminal 1980 work *Christiainity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality *(anybody read it, by any chance?), the use of “*arsenokoites *is quite rare … The best evidence, however, suggests very strongly that it did not connote homosexuality to Paul or his contemporaries but meant ‘male prostitute’ until well into the fourth century, after which it became confused with a variety of words for disapproved sexual activity and was often equated with homosexuality.”

What precisely Paul meant by his use of *arsenokoites *we will never know for sure. And given that fact, it seems totally absurd, and highly dangerous, to me that we should base a prohibition or a condemnation on loving, faithful homosexual relationships as a result.

I wonder, do those who condemn homosexuality as a sin on the basis of the supposed scriptural evidence not worry that they might be wrong? And that in being wrong, they are in fact transgressing against other, far more fundamental and unequivocal commandments – eg to love our neighbour as ourselves?

Again, I return to my core belief – echoing what Sass said earlier – that we all tend to look to the Bible to reinforce our own beliefs and prejudices. And for reasons I have touched on, and that I think it would be very instructive for us to explore in more depth, a lot of people seem to be innately prejudiced against gays – or the gay lifestyle, gay sex, perhaps.

Again I ask – WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF???!!!

I don’t much care for capital letter shouting (not British, old boy :smiley: ). But this question burns in me so deeply that I feel like screaming it in the face of the homophobes. What exactly do you find so threatening in same sex relationships?

It would be great if somebody who does sincerely and honestly believe that loving, faithful homosexual relationships are wrong and sinful would have the courage to speak up here and say *why *they believe that. But I strongly suspect that nobody will. Partly because they are afraid of the opprobrium it may call down upon their heads, but more because, when all is said and done, their arguments are so flimsy and emotional.

For me the killer quote from Benny’s blog is this one:

Spot on Benny.

Love to all

Johnny

Hi Johnny - GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU OLD CHAP, PIP PIP, TALLY HO AND WHAT’S THE SCORE AT CRICKET OLD BOY??? :laughing: :laughing: I feel much better now I’ve vented my spleen :open_mouth: (I belong to the men behaving mildly perservation society. at least some of the time) :laughing:

I’m going out now. so must dash - but I have read John Boswell’s book (at least a few chapters of it) and also his ‘Marriage of Likeness’. He wrote a lovely book on adotpion through the cneturies entitled ‘The Kindness of Strangers’.

I want a few days to think about this one of Benny’s blogs. I chew slow…

All the best matey (adn looking forward to the meet up? :slight_smile: )

Dick

Hi Johnny –

Well it’s just you and I tonight (being a Sunday I guess).

John Boswell

I see that Andy ‘All Brothers’ asked if anyone had read John Boswell right at the beginning of this thread. I know that John Boswell was a brilliant young professor at Yale University – who sadly died young – and was also gay (and since he was writing in the 1970s he was very brave and a forerunner in his research and writing). I got hold of a copy of his book ‘Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality’ on Friday. The chapter on the biblical witness and the views of the Church Fathers is a real eye opener. I’m no expert on Boswell – I understand that this book sparked a lot of debate and not everyone agreed with all of his findings. I note for example that he was writing before Rene Girard shed new light upon the context of sacred prostitution in archaic and pagan rites. However, the scriptural evidence he produces and the excerpt from the Church Fathers is overwhelming in some cases – for example to demonstrate that the story of Sodom was overwhelmingly understood as being a condemnation of sin against hospitality rather than a condemnation of gay sexuality, by the earliest authorities.

Boswell also discovered a manuscript from the early Church of the East which he read as being a blessing for a gay relationship between two men. His interpretation of this has been more controversial – many others have argued that the simplest explanation f the textual evidence is that this is a blessing of a friendship between comrades. Finally – if it is true that the majority of young evangelicals in America are moving toward being Pro-life while affirming of gay relationships (rather than seeing these as mutually exclusive) they should warm to the fact that Boswell’s book ‘The Kindness of Strangers’ celebrates the history for people who have taken in abandoned children, and perhaps see Boswell as a man who anticipated their own balance of ethical concerns.

Bringing our prejudices to scripture

Regarding brining to scripture – yes we all see scripture through the lens of our own concerns. I hope my friend Sass is reading – because she’s’ been my thread dialogue partner for several weeks now and I feel lost and at sea without her (but I shouldn’t be so needy!). But I’ll speak for her – so that she can correct me if I’m wrong. Its’ just that I think that what Sass was saying is that from her experience with friendship with gay people she wants the Bible not to condemn gay relationships. However, until now she has never been convinced that the Bible does not lead her to think that gay relationships are sinful – although she is open to persuasion. Basically she wants to see the arguments and decide whether or not they stack up.

So Sass,as far as I can see, is basically coming at the question form the point of view of the evangelical tradition – that has high and sacramental respect for scripture. And I reckon this will be true of many people on this site who know gay people, and even love gay people, but have a crisis of conscience with the authority of scripture. One way round this is to say that we are all sinners so who am I to condemn. This is a charitable and laudable step away from those who would hector gay people about ‘their sin’, but it’s not quite the same as affirming gay relationships (in my view it’s a way of side stepping the issue – although it’s certainly a compassionate and understandable one that s not to be despised). As I see it Sass is not one for side stepping issues – no way !!! :slight_smile: -and it’s her and those like her who we ‘affirmers’ can learn most from, as they can learn from us, through dialogue. Now you can correct me Sass :laughing: :laughing:

But as for those who you see as having big issues, the ones you really feel passionate – like the preacher from Carolina etc – they are in a very different category, and need to be kept in a different category. As an Anglican I would not wish to seek windows into men’s souls’ so I especially would not to seek windows into their bedrooms :blush: – but ‘ methinks the lady doth protest too much’ sometimes :unamused: . But I’m sure not all righteous homophones have sexual skeletons in their closet by any means. Rather they have big issues about not begin loved by God, and needing to feel secure in their self righteous fury at outsiders (because they are in competition for God’s love in a twisted sort of way – ‘He loves me more than he loves you so ‘ner ner ne ner ner’ :laughing: ).

The cultural context of scripture

Just a few thoughts here: scripture does need interpreting in my view, and we do need to be aware of historical context to interpret it. It really does seem to me that the passages in Corinthians and Timothy can in no way be used to condemn same sex partnerships today –

As with ‘aionos’ there seems to be alot of evidence that words translated in the Authorised Version as ‘sodomy’, ‘sodomite’ and ‘catamite’ – soon after homosexuality had become a hanging offence in England –actually mean something far looser concerning sexual immorality in general. This is worth considering carefully.

Greek and Roman culture did have some mighty weird homoerotic practices. I know the Athenians had the and equivalent of political internships today in which a young man who aspired to the political life had to be taken under the wing of an older man who would teach him politics and have a sexual relationship with him (which actually didn’t involve full sex). This relationship would be terminated when the young man came of marriageable age – but given that women were second class citizens in Athens, this sort of relationship was seen as the highest possible type rather than dutiful the breeding relationship a man had with his wife. It’s this sort of practice that Paul views with disdain. And i think we also need to think of the casual sexual use/abuse of slaves as being in his sights.

I’m quite gobsmacked that word used for ‘prostitution’ actually does seem to refer to sacred prostitution’ rather than ordinary prostitution. I’ve read some reputable articles this weekend that suggest that although ordinary prostitutes in New Testament times were considered outsiders, they were not abomination. Jesus shows such gentle concern for prostitutes, and Matthew lists three prostitutes in the genealogy of the Messiah. I think today we rightly need to see Jesus’ attitude as one that should make us want to work for the ending of prostitution (insofar as this is possible). But we do need to look more deeply at what the Bible means by sexual immorality that is idolatry/abomination. We’d be foolish to think that the New Testaments presumes monogamous marriage as the norm – although we can argue, rightly in my view – that it scope lead to the end of polygamy and concubinage, for example, as accepted practices (at the same time as these practices were becoming marginalised in rabbinical Judaism)…

And we need to see the whole question of sexual morality in the New Testament as part of a wider debate about family values. Several of Jesus sayings go against the family values of his day – the rejection of his mother with ‘woman what have it to do with thee’, the sayings against divorce which give women equal rights with men, the saying about hating you Mother and Father, the injunction to call no man Father, the injunction to leave the dead to bury the dead, the saying about sword that Jesus brings that divides families on generational lines, and even the blessing of children and the metaphorical commendation of eunuchs – all of these attack the family values of his day. Indeed, Jesus whole ministry of reaching out to people beyond the boundaries of the respectable biological family – the woman with the haemorrhage, the prostitutes, the mentally and physically sick/unclean etc – suggests to me that he invites us to have an inclusive notion of ‘family’.

The family in Jesus’ time was patriarchal with the ‘seed bearing’ father viewed as by far the most important person. Women had few rights, children fewer still, and families were bounded by codes of honour – the equivalent of honour killings, family blood feuds, clan nepotism, forced marriages etc, that we see in traditional cultures today were all a part of the family code that Jesus challenged.

So any who wish to pit family values against gay partnerships should be aware of scriptural context in my view, and be challenged by this. And I wonder what we should make of Jesus’ stand against the family. Family values are different today – but can we see any equivalents today to the stuff that Jesus condemns? Can we support blind prejudice against gay people by appeal to scripture as affirming our ‘family righteousness’. Isn’t the scope of the revelation in Jesus is that we should be concerned for the well being of all people – even those who don’t fit into standard roles.

Blessings

Dick

A coridal invitation for everyone to come back and join in again… :slight_smile:

Thank you Dick, it’s a bit late and I hve just skimmed to see how many posts since yours i think Saturday and thanks your urging me to stick with it which I shall. I shall need some time to read thru since Satiurday but I could not help but see large capital letters on one of yours Johnny

“·Again I ask – WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF???!!!”"

And I am in as good a position to answer that with an equally large lettered THERE IS N O T H I N G FOR THEM TO BE AFRAID OF!!!

I would challenge anyone, who is afraid, to come to Barcelona where we have no trouble from the massive influx of gays from around the world and to spend some time down the coast at Sitges also hugely popular for gays . In fact there is no sense of discrimination at all, everything carries on without any noticeable distinction by the locals nor by other tourists. Nobody here is afraid. On the contrary, they come precisely because they are made as welcome as any visitor.

Good night all

Blessing, cheers and prayers!

Michael in Barcelona

that’s a lovely thing to hear, Michael. in London, we “pride” ourselves on being cosmopolitan, but there is still alot of discrimination against gay people and different races seething under the surface. it is ALOT better than many other parts of the world, but it sounds almost heavenly where you are, to have such a natural welcoming attitude to people, regardless of who they love.

Dick, i am still reading with interest…keep it coming! i am learning loads :slight_smile:

i like what you’re saying about heterosexual monogamy not necessarily being the norm for Christ. there was a thread started a while back, possibly by Melchi, about God being somewhat polyamorous, and questioning some of what we often hold dear as our idea of God’s perfect union between individuals. i may resurrect it. it’s relevant here purely because it is to do with loving relationships that fall outside the “norm”, and has very little to do with gender for at least some of the practitioners.
i’ll see if there’s anything relevant i can add to it before i bring it back to life, however briefly.

Great stuff Prof :slight_smile:

The stuff about scapegoating from Girard, the stuff about Paul, Jesus on family values… all great stuff. :slight_smile:

Keep it coming, and blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

PS P.S. How do you find the time to do so much typing :exclamation: :question: :laughing:
Though perhaps I should ask myself that same question :laughing:

Exactly, Sass. And here in the US, most evangelicals, fundamentalsists, and conservative Christians that lens is one of biblical inerrancy and literal interpretation where ever possible. For some, the sense of reverence even stretches to various translations.

I like Peter Rollins’ take in Insurrection on how people struggle to keep all doubt and questioning out of their personal theology, for fear that their entire faith may crumble if they ever ask any of these questions of themselves (which fits perfectly with Beck’s idea that we view even the smallest amount of contamination as more powerful than the purity.) Rollins’ idea that many people set up tenets of faith and an idealized view of God as a type of idol, rather than experiencing Christ’s life and crucifixion on a personal level that drives us to act out of love, seems to fit the mindset of the anti-gay contingent of the church quite well, imo.

Another factor that I believe comes into this picture is laziness. It simply takes much less time and effort to let someone else do the thinking and just absorb what comes from a pulpit as truth and fact. This kind of spiritual inertia is very difficult to overcome, as challenging one’s own views doesn’t give the quick feel-good experience that other actions concerning our faith do. (Most of us here know exactly how difficult the inward examination of our ideas can be!)

As to Johnny’s question, “What are they afraid of?”, I think these three points answer that question for many. We’re afraid of expending the energy (and the inward journey) to question ourselves, and God Himself, about these concepts, fearing what we may lose or even find deep within us. We tend to forget how Jesus actually turned over the paradigm of purity/contamination. We have no need to fear that extending the boundary of hospitality and brotherhood will sully the church, and by extension, muddy up our own inner sense of sanctity; Christ’s overwhelming holiness purifies all, indeed it did so by immersing itself in our contamination.

And maybe there’s a seed of fear in each of us that fights against us being transformed by Him to the point where our faith is so simple and pure that we become like the man who answered, “All I know is I was blind, but now I see.”

just a quick one, Eric, but you made me think of what Jesus said about leaven and dough.
a small amount of leaven DOES work throughout the whole dough, but the only leaven He felt it necessary to warn us about was that of the Pharisees.
not the gays, not the tolerant, not the liberals…
interesting.
when we’re given sweeping cautions against horrible doctrines, without any exception i can think of, it’s never a caution against being too “nice”, “liberal”, soft, etc…it’s against being too religous, too staunch, too self-righteous, too arrogant.

I’d just like to put some extracts from a short biography of Josephine Butler (nee Grey), the nineteenth century evangelical, (by Andrew Wilson), on this thread. Her story strikes me as relevant because she was a fine evangelical woman who overcame scruples about purity and decency to help those on the margins. There is no direct parrallel between her cnocern and the topic of our discussion; but she had to taek on huge prejudices to engage with the world in loving kindness - and here I do see a parrallel .{Hope you don’t mind the brief interlude – but no need to comment on this one necessarily}

**…Josephine Grey learnt the Christian religion. That religion has at its heart the belief that God who is rich for our sakes became poor. Those who respond most vividly or affectionately to the Gospel have almost invariable been drawn to identify with the poor. This has been fact which has linked many different Christians of widely various ethnic or cultural backgrounds. We see in the life of Francis Assisi, in General Booth of the Salvation Army, in Mother Teresa of Calcutta today. Because God loved the world, such Christians have believed that it was their duty to love the world too; for ‘in as much as ye have done it unto the least of these brethren ye have done it unto me’. The dichotomy in the minds of many people between ‘politics’ and ‘religion’ does not exist for these Christians. Probably neither word plays a large part in their vocabulary. But they are living in the world which they believe God has loved and inhabited, they naturally look for justice in society, relief for the poor.

 In the early part of the last century this was particularly true of the Evangelical wing of the Church of England. It was from this religious perspective that William Wilberforce brought about the abolition of the slave trade, and that, later in the century, Lord Shaftesbury prevented the use of children as what was no more or no less than slave labour force in British mines and factories. Josephine Butler was very much the heir to this way of reading the Gospel. What she saw very clearly was that, in spite of the misogynistic traditions of Christianity, the Gospel contains within it the seeds of that was later called feminism. Just as the equality of Jew and Gentile as proclaimed in the Gospel made it ultimately unthinkable for Christians to allow the continuance of the slave trade (though for 1800 years Christians did not see this!) so, for Josephine, the respect shown by Christ for women, in spite of the social conventions of His day, led inevitably to the conclusion that women – all women, not just the prostitutes with whom her name is associated – should enjoy equal rights with men. 

 Among the great typical acts of Christ which were evidently and intentionally for the  
 announcement of a principle for the guidance of Society, none were more markedly so than His 
 acts towards women: and I appeal to the open Book, and to the intelligence of every candid 
 student of Gospel history for the justification of my assertion, that in all important instances of 
 his dealings of women, His dismissal of each case was accompanied by a distinct act of Liberation

From an early age then, radicalism and evangelical piety were in Josephine’s blood. Evangelical piety, for those of us who are not used to it, can be embarrassing, even cloying. But she was never this. Feminist or political radicalism can often be strident. Josephine was never that either. For me, she was one of the most attractive people who ever lived: not merely beautiful, but one of those extremely rare people who is good through and though without for one second seeming ‘goody-goody’…

…The Butler’s theology was more ‘liberal’ than the Evangelicals of the early Victorian period, admitting and indeed welcoming the advances in Biblical scholarship which inevitably modified the way in which the Bible was viewed. But they were no less ardent in their insistence that Christianity involves a social commitment. Josephine with her inquiring mind and profound interest in society found no conflict of views in her marriage to George Butler which was idyllically happy for forty-eight years until his death in 1890. His words to her, some four years after they were married, are remarkable for the extent to which they recognise his wife’s equality.

No words can express what you are to me. I hope I may be able to cheer you in moments of gloom     
and despondency... and by means of possessing greater physical strength... I may be enabled to 
help you in the years to come to carry out plans, which may under God’s blessing, do some good, 
and make men speak of us with respect....

…One evening, however, in 1863, something happened which was to change their lives forever. Returning home from a drive, the children rushed on to an upstairs landing to greet them as they entered the hall. Little Eva fell over the banister on to the hard, tiled floor below, and lay insensible at her parent’s feet. A few hours later she died.

  Never can I lose that memory – the fall, the sudden cry, and then the silence. It was pitiful to see 
  her, helpless in her father’s arms, her little drooling head resting on his shoulder and her 
  beautiful golden hair all stained with blood, falling over his arm!

The torture of grief for this child was something which Josephine was unable to assuage. Never strong (she had poor lungs) she fell seriously ill. …

…Josephine decided that the grief she felt for Eva could find no outlet at home.

   I became possessed with an irresistible desire to go forth, and find some pain keener than my 
   own – to meet with people more unhappy than myself (for I knew there were thousands of 
   such). I did not exaggerate my own trial; I only knew that my heart ached night and day, and that 
   the only solace would seem to be to find other hearts which ached night and day.

In the Liverpool of the 1860s, she did not have far to look. She began visiting vagrant women who had been rounded up into the notorious Brownlow Hill Workhouse, and establishment which makes the one in Oliver Twist seem positively benign. In exchange for a night’s lodging and a hunk of bread, the girls had to work in the sheds stripping oakum (tarry hemp) from piles of rope, the same tedious and painful work – it tears all the skin off your fingers – doled out to prisoners serving penal servitude (Oscar Wilde did it in Reading Gaol). Josephine was shocked at her first sight of the oakum sheds, but her immediate and characteristic response was not to enter then as a lady bountiful, dispensing good advice or soup. Instead, she sympathised in the literal sense of the word: she suffered with these women.

    I went into the oakum shed and begged admission. I was taken into an immense, gloomy vault, 
    filled with women and girls – more than two hundred, probably, at that time. I sat on the floor 
    among them and picked oakum. They laughed at me, and told me my fingers were of no use for  
   that work, which was true. But while we laughed we became friends.

The unselfconscious Evangelical felt no difficulty, in these miserable circumstances, in speaking to ‘this audience – wretched, draggled, ignorant, criminal’ about her Christian faith. She got one girl, tall and dark, standing up amid the heaps of tarred rope, to repeat the words of St John’s Gospel – ‘Let not your heart be troubled. Neither let it be afraid.’ And then, prayed. ‘It was a strange sound that united wail – continuous, pitiful, strong – like a great sign or murmur of vague desire and hope issuing from the heart of desire.’ The scene reminds us of that of the prostitute reading St John’s Gospel to Raskolniklov at the end of Dostoyevky’s Crime and Punishment…

…There were far too many prostitutes in Liverpool for the Butlers to be able to take them all. What was worse, the longer Josephine worked among them, the more she discovered that it was not simply a matter of reclaiming individuals. These women and children were victims of precisely that attitude which she had heard expressed at Oxford when Mrs Gaskell’s Ruth was under discussion: ‘A moral sin in a woman was … immensely worse than in a man. ‘Women are temptresses, hoydens, harbourers of disease and corruption; men on the other hand will be men and must be indulged and forgiven. This was the ‘morality’ of mid-Victorian England…

…It was more than a mere piece of convention which you could ignore or follow at your choice. It was written into the law of the land. The first Contagious Diseases Act was passed in 1864, with the aim of reducing the spread of sexually-transmitted disease in the armed forces. In effect it ment the establishment of state brothels for the navel and military, but it also involved a gross violation of civil rights not only of prostitutes but, by implication, of every woman in Britain. In 1866 and 1868, with the passing of further Contagious Diseases Acts, its original powers were extended far beyond the confines of the military encampments.

 The Contagious Diseases Acts effectively abolished Habeas Corpus in Great Britain. By the provocation of these Acts, special police were empowered to arrest any woman, compel her to submit to an examination for venereal disease, and require that she should present herself to the Justice of the Peace. Her guilt presumed unless she could prove herself innocent. No witnesses were require, and no evidence on the part of the officer making the arrest. If the woman protested or refused to co-operate with the law, she was liable to a period of penal servitude. If she did submit to the examination, it was in the eyes of many who investigated the matter little better than an ‘instrumental rape’. The woman was forced into a straightjacket to prevent her from struggling. Her legs were forced apart by metal clamps. One girl interviews by Josephine Butler after such a ‘medical ‘examination had rolled off the couch with a ruptured hymen. She turned out, as it happened, to be a virgin. The police paid her a few shilling’s hush money, but she went at once to Josephine Butler. Another woman, walking innocently along one evening with her daughter, was arrested and charged by the special police with being a ‘common prostitute’. This was how all women were now defined by the law of England unless they could prove to the contrary. This particular woman committed suicide rather than submit to the horrors of the examination. 

  These are the matters about which many people today still find it difficult to speak in public without embarrassment. How much truer that was in Josephine Butler’s day! She was not a strident, foul-mouthed woman who found it easy to mention matters normally only spoken about in the doctor’s consulting-rooms (if there). But a vitally important matter of human liberty was at stake, one which would never get reformed unless someone were brave enough to challenge it. To do so would be to risk the charge of prurience and impropriety. When it was further discovered that Josephine was protecting ‘immoral women’, she would obviously be charged with wickedness. She was an upper middle-classed woman with a position to maintain. This meant little to her personally, but the reputations of her sons and their husband meant everything. George was a clergyman and a schoolmaster with responsibility for the care of the young. His entire career was put in jeopardy by the very idea of having a wife whom ‘he could not control, who was prepared to peer so mercilessly beneath the respectable surface of Victorian life and reveal the cess-pit which lurked there. What should she do? 

   She put the problem to George. She knew that he was sympathetic to the cause, but was he prepared to risk the obloquy and anger which the campaign against Contagious Diseases Acts would provoke? Josephine now knew more, from first-hand experience, than any other educated woman in England about the plight of urban prostitutes. The feminist campaigner, Elizabeth Wolstenholme, wrote to her in 1869 and asked her to lead the protest again the Acts. George had no doubt about where her duty lay. Quoting Saul’s words to young David when he went forth to fight the giant Goliath, he told her, ‘Go, and the Lord go with you.’...

…The Goliath whom Josephine had to fight represented almost the entire male-dominated British Establishment. This was not just a case (brave as that would have been) of standing up to the pimps, and the brothel-keepers and madams. She had, for one thing, the medical profession against her. Since thousands of young men in the armed forces were suffering from venereal disease, it was felt that anything justified the halt of it; and for the doctors of Victorian England, who saw things from so one-sided a point of view, that merely meant controlling the prostitutes. ‘It is only insofar as a woman exercises trade which is physically dangerous to the community that Government has any right to interfere,’ conceded The Lancet of 27 November 1869. But the notion that that Contagious Diseases Acts in effect deprived women in garrison towns of civil liberty, where they were prostitutes or not , and that it had no effect on combating the spread of sexually transmitted diseases did not seem to have occurred to the author of the article. Most doctors reacted as Dr Preston of Plymouth, who wrote on 24 June 1870

    I will pass over Mrs. Josephine Butler’s address in public before men ...because I believe that a   
    very large majority of our sex ...can only characterise it as the height of indecency to say the 
    least. But it is my opinion that women are ignorant of the subject ... but not Mrs. Josephine 
    Butler and Company – they know nothing about it ... Certainly if such women as Mrs. Butler 
    continue to go about addressing public meetings – they may ultimately do so but at present I 
    venture to say that they are ignorant and long may they remain so. No men, whomever they 
    may be, admire women who openly show that they know as much on disgusting subjects as 
    they do themselves, much less so those who are so indelicate as to discuss them in public.

But Josephine risked the extreme ignominy of making speeches about venereal disease because she knew she was right, even though none of the medical profession would support her. The very few women doctors who were struggling into existence at this period were frightened of their positions vis-a-vis their male colleagues. Only Dr Elizabeth Blackwell was brave enough to oppose the Contagious Diseases Acts from the first, followed eventually by Dr Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, who had been the first woman to qualify as a doctor in 1865…

…Josephine Butler was eventually to collect some influential male allies - such figures as F.D. Maurice, James Stansfeld (a Liberal MP) and the philosopher John Stuart Mill. But many whom one might have thought would be sympathetic were not. None of her old friends at Oxford would lend their support. Benjamin Jowett, for example, the liberal-minded Master of Balliol, was priggish enough to say, ‘Mrs Butler takes an interest in a class of sinners whom she had better left to themselves.’ More surprisingly, Gladstone, himself so keen on rescuing prostitutes, was deeply unsympathetic to her cause. He considered it unfortunate that she should try to make it a political issue.

 But of course it was a political issue, since her aim was to repeal a series of Acts of Parliament. This could only be done by scaring the Liberal government of the day into some kind of action. Since women did not have the vote, Mrs Butler had to appeal to men – and that meant extensive travelling around the country to speak to frequently bawdy or hostile audiences, as well as a ceaseless stream of written campaign material, largely gathered up in her news-sheet, The Shield. In her speeches and articles, she was punctilious in her collection of evidence; and what she began to reveal, with hideous clarity, was not the narrowly important question of the Contagious Diseases Acts and their injustice, but also the much wider question of double standards in Victorian society. This, beyond question, is why her campaigns, from the very first, got so many people on the raw. One of her friends who was sent to prison for soliciting on 2 March 1870 told The Shield, ‘It did seem hard, ma’am that the magistrate on the bench who gave the casting vote for my imprisonment had paid me several shillings, a day or two before, in the street, to go with him.’

 This double standard was extremely widespread. In a society where men were supposed to delay marriage until they could afford to maintain a household, and in a society where marital breakdown was not relieved by divorce, prostitutes provided  an essential role in keeping the whole facade of ‘Victorian values’ unscathed. It was, moreover, the prostitute who supposedly made sure that the promiscuous middle-class man did not infect women of his own class – the sort of woman he might dance with, play croquet or bridge with, or escort into dinner. 

In an age when there was no cure for the rampant disease of syphilis, it is easy to see how these standards grew up. It is equally easy to see how Josephine Butler’s attempt to expose the standards was seen, and intended, as a political act. She saw the Contagious Diseases Acts as ‘a tyranny of upper classes against the lower classes’. And that is why she got the Liberal Party on the run.

 Realising that something had to be done, but wanting to put off the evil day, the Government set up a Royal Commission. Josephine Butler was summoned before it in 1871 to face a panel which was made up of bishops, doctors, naval and military experts and MP’s. Every member of this Commission was declaredly opposed to repealing the Acts and when she stood before them, she was made conscious of their hostility. ‘It was distressing to me owing to the hard, harsh view which some of these men take of poor women, and the lives of the poor generally ... I felt very weak and lonely. But there was One who stood by me.’

 Josephine meant this sincerely and literally. She and her husband were both of the view that Christ’s mortality was simple, and obligatory on all Christians. They were impatient of the doctrinal wrangling which so interested Roman Catholics and High Churchmen. ‘I am sure’, George once wrote, ‘Mary who sat at the feet of Jesus would have been puzzled by the reading over to her of the Athanasian Creed and the injunction to accept it all at the peril of the loss of her soul; but she understood what Jesus meant when He said “One thing is needful”.’Josephine felt that ‘those who profess the religion of Jesus must bring into public life and into the legislature the stern practical social, real side of the Gospel’. And this in turn brought the realisation that ‘economics lie at the root of practical morality’.**

Great stuff there, Eric :slight_smile:

James, just to balance it out bro, Jesus did say ‘beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, and of Herod’.

I always thought by the Pharisees he meant being self-righteous and spiritually arrogant and all of that, like you pointed out, but by Herod I think he meant basically being hedonistic and totally immoral…

So I always took this to mean that we shouldn’t go too far one way or the other…

I don’t believe that being nice or soft or liberal naturally falls into the Herod category, nor do I believe that being harsh or hard or conservative naturally falls into the Pharisee category… but in both cases it can lead to that, and we’ve gotta be aware of that, and be careful…

What I take from what Jesus said is that we shouldn’t, on the one hand, be obsessed with rules and regulations like the Pharisees were, or be all Puritanical and miss the joy of life or try to take it away from others, but then, on the other hand, we shouldn’t just do whatever the heck we want and follow our more selfish and base passions without any concern for consequences, or take God’s grace for granted…

In other words, we shouldn’t go to extremes on either end…

Or at least that’s how I take it anyway… :wink:

This is all of course easier said than done… I have struggled on both sides… there are times I have fallen on one side, and times I’ve fallen on the other… times that I’ve been spiritually proud and have judged others, and times I’ve just followed my lusts and my selfish desires without really giving any serious thought to consequences…

God knows we all struggle… I do believe that people who have fallen into the Pharisee’s trap are in a more difficult place to get out of, but that doesn’t mean people who have fallen into Herod’s trap don’t need to get out too…

We all need God’s grace and help in one way or another… whether it’s in our being legalistic or whether it’s in our being lawless… He’s the only one who can keep us from falling into these traps, and if we do fall in, can break us out of them…

He’s the only one who can help us to learn and to grow, to change for the better, and to walk and live and love more like Christ, rather than live like the Pharisees or like Herod…

You could say that Jesus is our balance beam… and the One who catches us whenever we fall off. :wink: :slight_smile:

Well anyways, that’s my two cents :slight_smile:

Blessings to you bro :slight_smile:

Matt

I agree with Matt - ‘be thou moderate’ :slight_smile: And I agree with Eric and James :slight_smile:

Yes indeed, ‘be thou moderate’… that’s the eleventh commandment, didn’t you know? :laughing:

just wondering where we get the idea that Jesus was referring to hedonism with regards to Herod? we only know a few things, from the text anyway, about Herod…and which Herod was Jesus referring to?
to me, Herod would symbolise working with the evil system for his own gain, doing horrible things to people to protect himself, etc. Herod is painted more as a petty, self-serving person than as a hedonist, in my opinion. he was also a symbol of oppression.
i’m not overly convinced that Jesus was talking solely about how he took his brother’s wife, either…that was one of a catalogue of things Herod did, and again, it was all self serving.
so i suppose my personal opinion is that Jesus said beware of the leaven of the pharisees with their oppressive, scape-goat religion…and beware of the leaven of the self-serving, unscrupulous coward. i don’t see it personally as a balancing statement, as they are not direct opposites…in fact, one often finds one in the company of the other, though that isn’t always true.

Well, you may be right, bro… I know, as I’ve learned the hard way, that I’m not always right… :neutral_face:

Perhaps I chose the wrong words or didn’t explain what I was trying to say well enough… sometimes I kind of fail in that area… :neutral_face:

And maybe my interpretation of that particular verse is off, but from reading the Bible as a whole, I do think I get the impression that, using another example, that being like the prodigal son, or being like the elder brother, are both situations and ways of life that one needs to be brought out of and need to be delivered from… perhaps you’re right that Herod isn’t the best example as an opposite to a Pharisee… maybe a better example would be some guy who parties hard, gets drunk and high and sleeps around, and either takes God’s grace for granted or doesn’t even pay any attention to God… the kind of person who goes crazy on Saturday cuz they know they’ll get forgiven on Sunday… I guess that’s what I meant by hedonistic and immoral… someone who just did whatever felt good at the time, but regardless of how it might damage themselves or those around them…

I think that kind of place is a bad place to be in too, and a mindset and a way of life that one needs to be delivered from as much as the Pharisee needs to be delivered from his mindset and his way of life…

Don’t know if I’m really making any sense, maybe I’m just clueless :laughing:

My apologies bro if I came off as an idiot… no hard feelings, I hope. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you and peace :slight_smile:

Matt

on the contrary, it’s good you mentioned your thoughts. truly Jesus would i’m sure caution us away from destructively following our base urges with no thought of others! it’s good to get that out of the way, as some assume gay people are like that…
also, as a side issue, i have met responsible “hedonists” (not quite as simple as that though), but that might be a topic for another day :laughing:

i just think it’s interesting that, despite the general evangelical slant on relative morality, the things Jesus was MOST upset about seems to me to be anything that oppresses others. for me it seems quite clear that He was preaching here against the scapegoating paganism of the Pharisees and self-serving oppression of the monarchy of the day.
in short, He was preaching a personal relationship with God that didn’t require mob lynching mentality and envy (scapegoating) and political responsible anarchy…at least that’s what i take from this, and of course mate, i could be wrong too :wink:

Matt –

I think we have to bear in mind that our ‘black metal contra mundum’/black metal against the world’, biker chic, Goth loving James is … well actually a bit of a pussy cat :laughing: . He’s a gentle, softy spoken Canadian; a really sweet bloke, and a real conciliator in the frenzied London UR mob. Now I may have misunderstood – often do – but it’s a fact worth stating that James is about a scary as …well whatever you think isn’t at all scary (oh James – I’m sorry I’ve blown your cool mate!!! :laughing: :laughing: ).

I think James was spot on about Herod as a craven oppressor client king of the Romans. If we look at Herod through Girard’s lenses, it’s not difficult to see the root of the scandal. As a client king Herod is in a situation of frustrated antagonistic rivalry – he both admires/envies and resents their superior power that has made him into a puppet of their power; and that’s going to make him potentially nastier towards his own people, nastier even than the Romans (I think the Romans understood and manipulated this dynamic, like the Nazis did in Vichy France). Added to this there are the tensions set up by his marriage to Herodias and how this is perceived by his own people. And John the Baptist becomes the scapegoat for both tangles of desire – and I know Girard sees the dance of Salome as an intrinsic part of the scapegoating ritual against John.

I googled the verse from Mark that you cited and found a very interesting article by an American Christian – who is basically a compassionate conservative and says thing that are relevant to the earlier discussion about the First Amendment. I think I’ll start a supplementary materials thread and plonk it on this – that’ll mean I can stop interrupting with background reading stuff.

Blessings

Dick