The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Part of me thinks, Jesus will NEVER return

Theology Eschatology
#1

I am a Christian, non-Trinitarian, and I have no doubt whatever that Jesus will return to Earth visibly, in His resuccected body — no less! If you don’t take it literally, how do you take it — figuratively? I don’t think that’s possible when it come to Christ’s return. If one doesn’t take it literally, then then one doesn’t take it at all. He disbelieves it.

Jesus appeared to His disciples after his resurrection, spoke some important things to them, and then ascended into heaven. His disciples watched Him go:

And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” Acts 1:10,11

They saw Him go up in His resurrrected body. In the same body and in the same manner shall He return!

#2

They saw him ascending, the messenger says we will see him return in the same way he left, he will return by ascending (in us). We now know no man after the flesh. The mystery is Christ in us the hope of glory (Christ was revealed IN Paul), which is now the down payment, but when He returns we shall all with unveiled faces be transformed from glory to glory, the feast of tabernacles, the fullness of deity will dwell bodily in us, we are the body, the temple.

Will we still see a physical glorified Jesus too? I don’t know. Could I be wrong? Heck no :laughing: :wink:

Thats how I see it

#3

Didn’t Jesus say, “Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”?

#4

Check out how God “returned” or “came to” Israel throughout scripture. Was it literal? Did God literally “come on the clouds of heaven”? Or was that a poetic figure of speech utilized by the Hebrew prophets?

And regarding the Acts 1 verse that so many cite, don’t we get our understanding of this verse from others? Seriously, who can tell me why the the “two men” asked the disciples why they were looking into heaven? Doesn’t that seem a bit odd to you all? I mean, if Jesus is ascending on a cloud, and then the two men tell the disciples that he will come back the same way he left - why wouldn’t they look into heaven? Isn’t that where Jesus would be coming from?

The reason I am asking is because everyone assumes that since they SAW him ascend, they will SEE him descend. Isn’t that the assumption? But if that were so, why would the two men ask why they were gazing into heaven?

But if the emphasis is on his ascending ON CLOUDS…and out of their sight (i.e., non-visibly), then couldn’t the two men be saying “why are you guys looking for him to appear in the same form…he will come on the clouds of heaven, invisibly…you won’t be able to see him physically, you will only SEE him spiritually…and all the tribes of the Land shall mourn…”

I’m kind of adding to the two men’s words to illustrate my perception of Jesus’ coming. It says when he comes, the tribes of the “earth” (i.e., ge in Greek, etetz in Hebrew) which is more properly translated “Land” and usually in scripture this would signify the Land of Promise. The use of the word “tribes” would also indicate Israel’s 12 tribes, especially with the connection to the Land here.

Jesus ascends on the clouds. He will descend on the clouds. What does that mean prophetically? Look it up in your bibles - don’t take my word for it. It is Judgment language - and in this case it would be the judgment on Jerusalem, the holy city - who had become a Whore. In fact, she was the Mother of ALL Whores. The wrath of God was about to be poured out to the uttermost - they were about to experience the Great Tribulation, the one that would happen “in that generation.” None had ever been like it, nor will ever be again. It wasn’t just about the death of a million Israelites, but it was the destruction of the Temple, the priesthood, the artifacts (including the Ark of the Covenant, the Lampstand, the Table of Showbread), the sacrificial system…their house was being made desolate, as Jesus prophesied in Mt. 23-25. The Sheep and Goats were about to be divided - the Mount of Olives divided.

Jesus was the High Priest entering the heavenly Holy of Holies, and according to Hebrews he would sprinkle his blood in the holy place, covering the mercy seat…and then he SAT DOWN on the Mercy Seat. He bought mercy. He owned it. But Israel would not know that God accepted his sacrifice unless he, like every high priest, came out of the holy place alive and well. But he would remain at God’s right hand “until the restoration of all things.” Hebrews tells us that he would come and WOULD NOT TARRY…i.e., he would not delay. Yet we have many who say that he has delayed - for nearly 2,000 years. Oh, I know, call me a scoffer…a day like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day…but this is hyperbole on the part of Peter. He wasn’t giving us a mathematical formula - he was saying that even in HIS DAY there were those saying “where is the promise of his coming? He delays…he was obviously a liar and a fake.” But Peter told them that God’s timetable was not like man’s. God said “a generation,” which was 40 years (from AD30 to AD70). By the time it was all over, Israel would have been in captivity for 70 years (from Jesus’ birth until Jerusalem’s destruction).

Jesus was coming in judgment to that generation - upon whose head was all the blood of the prophets. Their sacrificial system was an abomination that would cause desolation. Their mark of circumcision had become like Moses’ serpent on a pole - a curse. It was the mark of the beast…the usurper to David’s throne, whose number was six hundred and sixty six (the weight of gold given to the Beast, Solomon, in tribute each year). Although he had experienced “a mortal head wound” (his son’s divided the kingdom, clear proof that he was not the true heir to David’s throne), the false prophet (Israel’s leadership) kept him alive in the hearts of the people. But Jesus was the true heir…and he, one like the Son of Man, ascended on the clouds of heaven to claim his throne (Dan 7:21). He would return within that generation to claim it, and to vindicate himself as the true King, the true High Priest, whose sacrifice was accepted. His “appearing” (parousia) would prove to all that his sacrifice was acceptable to God the Father. He had “destroyed death,” the “work of the evil one.” He “put an end to sin” for “there is no sin where there is no law” and he had put an end to the Law of Moses. It was fulfilled through the law of the spirit of life…the law of love, mercy, grace.

He came “on the clouds of heaven” as the disciples saw him go. “Every eye (saw) him” and “all the tribes of the Land…mourn(ed).” The firstfruits were raised from the dead through baptism (“raised in newness of life”) but “the rest of the dead” who were “dead in their trespasses and sins,” “did not come to life until the thousand years were ended” in AD70. They were “beloved for the sake of the patriarchs” and were “resurrected FROM condemnation.” The DEAD Body of Moses was raised to be the Body of Christ. No longer would they hurt or destroy on God’s holy mountain…for the Prince of Peace had reconciled the world to his Father. God had turned ALL over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on ALL.

#5

To me, that is the plain reading of the text. I agree with you Paidion. Jesus was given a glorified body. He still has a glorified body. We too will be given a glorified body.

#6

I’m not saying that Jesus does NOT come through His body manifesting Him in the world. Absolutely that will happen more and more; from glory to glory He is changing us. But . . . I believe this statement literally also, as I see no reason to suppose it is metaphorical only. This is Acts – so far as I can see, not apocalyptic.

#7

I too believe in the fact that we will receive “a glorified body” although that phrase is not found in scripture.

A couple of things - Jesus didn’t rise in his glorified body. If he had, no one would have thought he was the gardener, and the two men on Emmaus wouldn’t have been just so-so about him until afterward. His walking through walls occurred both before and after his resurrection, so it didn’t require any different body after the resurrection. HOWEVER, in Revelation, when John sees Jesus, he looks a little different. THAT’S when he was in a “glorified state,” if you ask me - iow, after the ascension.

Re: my view of the body. The cells in our body die and are replaced once every two years if you don’t count the bones. With the bones it’s every seven years. The dead cells leave us via fingernails, hair, toenails, flaky skin…These dead cells fall to the ground and return to dust. I believe, at death, our dead cells are left behind (that’s the corpse we either bury or cremate). Our bodies are basically “a giant toenail.” These dead cells are replaced with new cells, ones that are fit for the heavenly realm and they no longer will die.

I take this view because I am not a dualist who sees us as consisting of body and soul. I believe that our spirit and body make up our soul, and we don’t leave this life without either. The change happens at death, not at some imaginary future resurrection. The resurrection that Jesus spoke of was what Ezekiel prophesied, the return of Israel to God (cf. chapter 37).

#8

That’s a fascinating perspective Ed.
I’m not sure how many bodies there are in your theology? For me, the simplest and most plain reading of scripture is that the Second Adam was given a new, incorruptible body on the morning of His resurrection. I see know reason why God should not close eyes and open eyes as to His identity nor any stipulation that this incorruptible baody has to be manifest in one particular form for the whole of eternity. If you can cite scriptures to support this belief, I’m very interested. Amongst other things, Jesus was the first-born. He has demonstrated how we also will shed this corruptable body and put on incorruption. He will return in precisely the same way He left.

#9

The atheist author and poet Amis Kingsley suggested in his poem, A New Approach, that Christ should come backNew Approach Needed

Should you revisit us
Stay a little longer,
And get to know the place.
Experience hunger,
Madness, disease and war.
You heard about them, true,
The last time you came here;
It’s different having them.
And what about a go
At love, and marriage, children?
All good, but bringing some
Risk of remorse and pain
And fear of an odd sort;
A sort one should, again,
Feel, not just hear about,
To be qualified as
A human-race expert.
On local life, we trust
The resident witness,
Not the royal tourist.

People have suffered worse
And more durable wrongs
Than you did on the cross
(I know –you won’t get me
Up on one of those things),
Without some prospect of
Ascending good as new
On the third day, without
“I die, but man shall live”
As a nice cheering thought.

So, next time, come off it,
And get some service in,
Jack, long before you start
Laying down the law:
If you still want to then.
Tell your dad that from me.

by Kingsley Amis in Collected Poems 1944-1979 Penguin books1979

I came across this poem in 1988. For years I had been obsessed with the question as to just where Christ might appear in the world on His second coming. On reading this poem I found myself that night putting pen to paper words pouring out in similar style to Kingsley Amis in reply to his poem. I will post it later as it would not make much sense without reading KA’s poem first!

Michael in Barcelona

#10

There was only ONE body…it was corruptible, mortal, carnal (fleshly, SARX). It was the body of Moses (Israel). The body of Moses was crucified (Jesus was “in the flesh,” “under the law,” and the “law was nailed to the cross”) and the body of Jesus was resurrected. Jesus physical body was raised on “Easter” morning. His body/bride (“and the two shall become one”) was raised after AD70. The imagery and scriptural background for this was found in Ezekiel 37 - the “dry bones.” Ezekiel (the son of Man…sound familiar?) speaks to the dry bones and they LIVE. Jesus, the son of Man, spoke to the dry bones of Israel (“and they shall hear my voice and they shall come forth from their graves…”) and “ALL Israel was saved.”

It was a two-stage resurrection, according to the Revelator John, “And the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were over.” The “firstfruits” were resurrected at their baptism (“and they were raised in newness of life”) but the “rest of the dead” (Israel, dead in her trespasses and sins") did not come to life until they experienced “the second death” (i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem) - for a seed had to fall to the “Land” (ground, earth, ge, eretz) and die, that was Israel’s destruction - and then they were “raised incorruptible, immortal, spiritually.” They were “the body of Christ,” the “Last Adam,” aka, the Last Man (Adam means man).

You claim that it is the “plain reading of scripture” that tells you that Jesus got an incorruptible body on the day of his resurrection. Where? You give me the verse. MY plain reading of scripture doesn’t involve God having to hide anything from anyone, which isn’t mentioned. Re: the sojourners to Emmaus. Their eyes were opened after taking breaking bread with Jesus but their reaction was not “holy cow, did you see how his whole body glowed and blinded us!” Nope, it was “didn’t we feel our hearts burn inside us when he spoke to us…” There is just no “plain reading of scripture” that describes what you want it to. As I pointed out, in the Revelation, it would appear that Jesus had a glorified body (or some such) based on “the plain reading of scripture” when John was describing the vision of Jesus.

Re: my belief about how we get our “heavenly” or “celestial” bodies is pure conjecture and I’ve stated that…

#11

Hi Ed

So you’re saying that Jesus’ resurrected body is/was corruptible? I just want to be clear on that.

All this seems to go along with your preterist interpretation of scripture but it is eisegesis (whether right or wrong) and (to my knowledge) there is no scripture which says “All Israel was saved” Paul wrote Romans before 70AD but that is no reason to assume he was referring to 70AD or that he was not talking about Israel (the plain reading of the text).

I actual said “the Second Adam” and I think it is relevant that you have omitted this point. Jesus was the firstfruit, the firstborn and he demonstrated (as the second Adam) what humankind’s future would entail - the acquisition of an incorruptible body upon resurrection.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Incorruption is bestowed upon rising from the dead ie resurrection.

That’s no more true than my own interpretation. There are countless things we believe which require interpretation. Anyone who cannot acknowledge this sets himself up for a big fall. We rely on the Spirit to enliven the text and to guide us.

You seem to interpret ‘glorified’ as ‘glowing’ (perhaps you can give a text for that belief as you seem to suggest all your beliefs are founded on texts?

To what are you referring? What do I want? You seem to think I want Jesus to glow?

“It would appear”?? Do you not have a text to say when Jesus was glorified?
How about these:
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Well, we can agree on that.

Obviously, you interpret scriptures along a preterist view point and I do not.

To go back to the OP, I have no doubt (and I could ask any of my friends who lecture in English on this one), that the plain reading of how the angels declared Jesus would return is as several have already stated in this thread.
To interpret the text in a different manner requires quite a contortion but is understandable if one is already fixed to a preterist ‘Kingdom-now’ belief system.
I cannot see that further dialogue will be fruitful as we are in danger of repetition and I am confident that neither of us will be swayed by the other’s point of view so I will bow out and bid you good-day my fellow traveler and brother in Christ.
God bless you.

#12

Pilgrim,
Frankly, the part we agree on (I’m sure you’re referring to my “conjecture” comment) is actually the obtaining of a glorified body. YOU believe it to be at “the resurrection” (which I see as past) while I see it as at death. I don’t believe that part is conjecture - only the replacement of cells theory, which most people, if pressed, agree with…but alas, we’ll have to leave it at that. It’s what I call the “Giant Toenail Theory,” iow, our corpses are a giant toenail.

You are also correct in your assertion that the difference between us stems from our understanding of a few keywords - “body” (which you see as individuals, and I see as the corporate body of Israel), “corruptible” - and its counterpart “incorruptible” (which you see as meaning that the physical is somehow evil, while I see it as “death” and that through the law of Moses), and along those same lines, the words “mortality” and “immortality.” In my view, mortality speaks of “spiritual death,” i.e., “the body of death” which was the body of corporate Israel dead in her trespasses and sins and in need of “eternal life” which is abundant life - a qualitative rather than quantitative view.

btw, I did not ignore your reference to Jesus as “the Second Adam,” but I fail to see that as scriptural…scripture calls him “the Last Adam,” not the second one. Prophetically, there were many Adams - Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob et al. Jesus was the last Adam, the finisher of the Faith. He did not eat from the tree of knowledge, and thus redeemed his bride, Eve (Israel) - unlike all of his predecessors. The shame experienced by the first Adam and Eve was dealt with once and for all, and humanity could return to the Garden and eat from the tree of life.

I stand by my use of Ezekiel 37 as a scriptural example of “the dead coming to life.” And that “dead man,” those “dry bones” was Israel in captivity. Israel in Jesus’ day was in captivity as well - captive to sin and death, to the Law. This was likened to being in captivity in Egypt and Babylon…and judgment was to come on Israel, the Harlot within the apostles’ lifetimes.

I am posting this response not as a rebuttal to you but so that others might read it and find something to chew on. I don’t expect a rebuttal from you…I expect seekers to find nuggets…perhaps they’ll find it in your post, we’ll never know until later…after our corpses become giant toenails. LOL. I’ve been told that’s gross…that’s why I use it. :laughing:

#13

Going back to Phaidon’s opening of the thread:

“I have no doubt whatever that Jesus will return to Earth visibly, in His resuccected body — no less! If you don’t take it literally, how do you take it — figuratively? I don’t think that’s possible when it come to Christ’s return. If one doesn’t take it literally, then then one doesn’t take it at all. He disbelieves it.”

and to my earlier post quoting in full Kingsley Amis poem appealing to Christ for a New Approach " should you revisit us, /stay a little longer/and get to know the place". Amis then lists a number of suggestions during Christ’s return and ending:

“If you still want to then.
Tell your dad that from me.”

I came across this poem in 1988. For years I had been obsessed with the question as to just where Christ might appear in the world on His second coming. On reading this poem I found myself that night putting pen to paper words pouring out in similar style to Kingsley Amis in reply to his poem. I will post it later as it would not make much sense without reading KA’s poem first!

Here goes with the reply - I am not sure in copy here if it will be pasted in the same format!

A REPLY TO KINGSLEY AMIS’ “NEW APPROACH NEEDED” (Collected Poems 1944-79)

I. THE REPLY

I like your invitation
To come again some time.
You and I should meet
Your place or mine,
Greet all, talk of Dad.
No time for that now
That’s why I am writing.
Thought you’d like to know
I’ve been around a bit.
So many times
He only knows.
I’ve lost count.
Never made the headlines –
Not yet! Up to Dad again;
Does not like fuss and hassle.
Amis! It’s always the same: pain, pain.
Pain? You talk about a Cross.
Well, that is going back.
There’s been worse since that.
Beats me man’s time spent
In making people suffer.
Seems nothing the likes of you and me
Can do to stop it.
And Dad? Drives him mad.
Sends me down
Again and again to sort things out.

 BUT , AMIS, WHAT CAN I DO? ANY IDEAS?

I could do with a change myself.
Look, Amis, don’t get me wrong.
Others have suffered and worse.
But wait! I’ll tell you a thing or two,
What I’ve been through.
I feel you ought to know.
Like I said I like your letter,
You ought to know my situation.
One thing though intrigues me:
Your concern with a re-appearance
A New Approach. How right you are!
I’ve often tried, and how!
But back to what I’ve suffered.

     Two thousand years of hunger
     Two thousand years abused
     Two thousand years of illness
     Two thousand mis-unders-tood

I’ve seen some good times too;
More of that later.

II.  THE CHILDREN.

Much more than love and laughter
It’s the rage and weeping I remember
Unhappy homes, crowded cells, the homeless – and,
Children, the children, Amis,
Lonely,unloved,
,fly-ridden, war-stricken
tired, starved, thirsty
enslaved, diseased, abused,

 Children, Amis, Children,

When we talk, you and I, let’s
Sort this one out first.

 III  THE INVITATION

Where next?

 Ideas? A Fresh Approach!

Come with me next time;
We’ll try together a new idea or two
But only where he needs us most.
Never lost hope yet, but you’ll soon see
And suffer what happens most places.
Not nice, not short, unless we’re shot
But that’s unusual. No, a prison cell
Is the norm and no way out.
It’s not always ideas.The cause,
Sometimes, is how you’re born!
Suggestion!
Change your colour, place of birth –
He might exceptionally agree to that.
Not easy, prejudice will flare out.
I’ve tried to stop it more than once –
Not quite succeeded, yet.

IV WHAT ELSE?

Religions?.......but Wait!

Wait, Amis, I’d like to finish this, but,
Very sorry, will have to wait next time.
They’re after me again

      What a way to go, always worse.

Not much time left this time round.
But HE will get this to you.
Dad liked your letter too, and,
I’ll be back soon………

MW

(Note for K.A. from MW. There is no signature to the above document, transcribed verbally. It has been quoted in full from longhand notes taken at the time. All in great haste! I cannot reveal how this came into my possesion. Something to do with “Dad”?
A few badly distorted last words are not included. However from what little could be understood, it is worth recording that a “fiftieth” or “sixtieth” anniversary or more likely birthday might have very recently been celebrated; then, a place for a ”meeting with you, Amis,” was repeated two or three times, but the name was garbled and then the lines of communication broke down completely. We will just have to keep our eyes and ears open in the hope of receiving a new message.)

Michael W at Barcelona 22.08.1988.

(Regrettably the message was never sent to Kingsley Amis who died at the age of 73 in 1995 so perhaps “a meeting with you Amis” was never to be in this world and the message should now be sent to his son, Martín Amis). 10.2003.

So far not yet sent to Martin Amis -------do any of you good people on the Forum know him, if so leave you to pass it on!!

Happy Easter to everyone!

Michael in Barcelona (thank you Revtweedy, Andrew, for encouraging me to make this Post!!)

#14

I don’t think it is disbelieved, just believed differently. What if we, the ekklesia, are his resurrected body in which he returns? Are we not referred to as the Body of Christ? Did we not share in his death and resurrection? Did not Jesus himself say that we would do greater works than he?

What if we are the “returning Jesus in visible form?”

I certainly don’t count that as disbelief, but as a non-“literal” interpretation of that very belief.

#15

Yep :sunglasses:
Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire but a body you have prepared for me.
Christ is the head of the body, the ecclesia
The two shall become one, this is a great mystery concerning christ and the ecclesia
As Christ is so are you in the world
Christ in you is the hope of glory, which is the mystery hidden from ages past

#16

Melchiziedek and Redhotmagna,

Interesting, and would be interested to have your comment on the poems A Fresh Approach and the Reply to Kingsley Amis?

Thanks!

Michael

#17

I think that in all prophecy (that I can think of, and that is already fulfilled – at least in part) there is a literal and a figurative interpretation and fulfillment. For example, the restoration of Israel has both a literal and a figurative interpretation. Probably several of each, if I were smart enough to see them. BTW, I’m neither a prophecy nor a history expert, so if I make mistakes (as I probably will) please point them out and also forgive me.

The restoration of a culturally/ethnically intact nation to its original home place is unique in the history of the world. It isn’t fashionable today to approve of Israel, and certainly it is a secular country which, like all the rest of us, does what it needs to do to survive, and sometimes unsavory things. But its restoration is nothing short of miraculous, and that it was predicted in scripture is even more amazing. For hundreds of years, bible scholars spiritualized this prophecy because they could (understandably) see no way it could ever be literally fulfilled. And even today many Christians point to Israel and say that the restoration of the physical nation means nothing. But honestly, to the rest of the world, it does look a lot as though the prophecies concerning Israel are being fulfilled physically in this world’s system.

And pragmatically, the spiritual fulfillment via the church, of the prophecies concerning Israel, doesn’t impress anybody, even the church. Yes, the spiritual fulfillment is the most significant, but the physical fulfillment is more impressive. Anyone can come up with a story for spiritual fulfillment. For most of the world this sort of thing equals no fulfillment at all. But the physical fulfillment brings attention and credibility to the spiritual fulfillment.

Jesus came to set the captives free – from sickness, blindness, deafness, lameness, demons, even death. Yes, His healing of the broken hearted, His forgiveness of sins, His bringing in of the Kingdom of God is FAR more important than any temporal healing He brought, but I don’t think I need to tell you how much credibility He WOULDN’T have had if He hadn’t physically healed, restored, set free, and raised the physically dead. If He Himself had not physically walked out of the tomb and showed Himself to His disciples with many indisputable proofs, the story would have ended at the cross.

We’ve been looking forward to Jesus parting the eastern sky and showing Himself to the world for, yes, 2000 years. And YES! His manifestation of Himself in His body, the ekklesia, is HUGE. We’ve largely ignored this aspect, at least in recent decades. Maybe this isn’t the case over the entire church world, but it has been the case in my limited experience both in the Bible Belt and in Middle America. It is TIME for the body of believers to show herself as the body of Christ to the world. It was Jesus’ high priestly prayer that we believers would be one that the world might believe that the Father had sent Him. (John 17) And that prayer must and will come to fulfillment.

That said, I absolutely believe in the bodily return of our Lord Jesus, just as the disciples saw Him go from them into the clouds. We might say, “Well, God just doesn’t do things like that.” Really? He walked on the water; He fed the 5,000 +; He healed the man born blind and raised Jairus’ daughter and healed the nobleman’s son. He turned water into wine at the wedding and He restored the cripple at the pool of Bethesda – yes, He did. He raised Lazarus from the grave after he’d been in there mouldering for four days. And He Himself walked out of the tomb into the Garden wearing a glorified, risen body. He ascended bodily into the heavens and He will return bodily from the heavens, at which time every eye will see Him and all the people of the earth will mourn because of Him, as one mourns for an only son.

Yes, there is a magnificent spiritual fulfillment to Jesus’ return (which we will not accomplish except in the power of the Holy Spirit as the Father transforms us (as a single community) into the image of His Son), but there is also the physical fulfillment when He does indeed split the eastern sky and claim His own. (I feel I should have a trumpet fanfare here or something :wink: ) I am looking forward to both.

Blessings in Him,
Cindy

#18

I hear what you’re saying, Cindy. While I don’t rule out the interpretation you’ve presented as plausible; I do think it’s possible, perhaps even likely that the approach that I and redhot have outlined here could fulfill the scriptural prophecies in both of the important senses (literal and figurative) you’ve mentioned. We do not yet know what we will be, and all of creation is groaning in anticipation of the revealing of the sons of God, so I’m thinking it’s going to be pretty spectacular either way. We do know that we will be just like him when we see him as he truly is, but whether that is with physical eyes or spiritual ones is perhaps unknown at this point.

I also have my misgivings as to the state of the current “restored national Israel” being the restoration of which the prophecies speak, but that’s somewhat a side issue.

Blessings,

Tim

#19

Yes, hence the Reply (imaginary) to Kingsley Amis who in his poem appeals to Christ for A New Approach Needed on His return, both poems quoted in full earlier in this thread.

Extract from the Reply relative to the quote above from your Post:

I like your invitation
To come again some time.
I’ve been around a bit.
…
So many times
He only knows.
I’ve lost count.
…
Much more than love and laughter
It’s the rage and weeping I remember
Unhappy homes, crowded cells, the homeless – and,
Children, the children, Amis,
Lonely,unloved,
,fly-ridden, war-stricken
tired, starved, thirsty
enslaved, diseased, abused,

 Children, Amis, Children,

When we talk, you and I, let’s
Sort this one out first.

Cindy I loved your post and yes I could almost hear a fanfare of trumpets and the Hallejuh chorus at the end!!!

Joyful Easter to all
Michael in Barcelona

#20

cindy,

I don’t fully rule out the possibility that Jesus comes back separate from His ecclesia, that He is the head of the body means the captain of a host or something to that effect, and we are changed into His likeness. I can see that and we become sort of like a hive mind alien/borg type entity. Having distinction but also being one, with Christ as the head. Sorry for the nerd out :ugeek:

But, I definitely don’t lean toward that. A few reasons:

1)After Christs ascension, He was revealed IN Paul. Paul being the 13th apostle speaks to me of the new order, of melchizedek, there were 13 tribes really, the levites being the called out tribe/separated from the rest of the pack, Paul was an apostle separated from the rest.

2)All of the OT prophecies, the OT rituals, all of the natural were based around the tabernacle/temple. These things are all types of the spiritual with Us being the temple, Christians being Israel, etc. When the temple was destroyed in 70 ad, 40 years after Christ ascended (40 speaks of trial/judgement) I believe that was the end of the “literal”. For most of the prophesies to be literally fulfilled requires a temple built in Jerusalem, which God does not dwell in temples made with human hands, we are the temple of the HS.

3)The nation of Israel is not Israel IMO. A jew is one who is circumcised of the heart. The state of Israel are not followers of Christ by any means, let alone most don’t even follow Torah. They are violent, some would call them terrorists. I think that their return as a state is to fool dispensationalists into backing the war machine of Babylon. I don’t think their return is of God. Again I could be wrong. But I would not label them as Israel, but as Edom or Ishmael. Ishmael is a wild donkey and is at war with everyone. Hebrews speaks of the Jerusalem below being likened to Hagar, her progeny is Ishmael. Also Edom because the religious Jews are under the OC which was given in Edom’s territory, and haven’t’ progressed into Israel spiritually. Also ethnically there is evidence that Edom was absorbed into Israel in the 1st century bc. Also ashkenaz was a son of Japheth, and the majority of the jews are ashkenazi.

I could be wrong, I have been wrong once or twice before :wink: