The Apostle Paul was given a “gracious gift from God” to not need “to be touching a woman” (1 Cor. 7.1)
However he makes a concession for practically everyone else.
“Yet, because of prostitutions, let each man have a wife for himself and each woman have her own husband” (2)
Basically marriage is about SEX. This can include more than just intercourse. Different couples will have different needs.
Some like romantic dinners, and walks through the moonlight,
Others like handcuffs and adventure.
Some soft and gentle, others hard and rough.
Later in the chapter Paul repeats himself “Now I am saying to the unmarried and the widows, that it is ideal for them if ever they should be remaining even as I. Yet if they are not controlling themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire” (8-9)
It is interesting that Paul does not say 'Yet if they are not controlling themselves, let them pray and study the scripures"
Paul’s basic answer to sexual sin? GET MARRIED! In fact he assumes if someone is ‘burning’ and single, there will be ‘prostitutions’ (Yes, it is possible that the ‘12 letter word starting with an M’ can save a person until marriage, if done with a pure mind)
For those who are married Paul gives ‘classic’ advice “Let the husband render to the wife her due, yet likewise the wife also to the husband”(3)
His next words could be seen as erotic “The wife has not the jurisdiction of her own body, but the husband, yet likewise the husband also has not the jurisdiction of his own body, but the wife” (4)
What he says next is interesting “Do not deprive one another, except sometime it should be by agreement for a period, that you should have leisure for prayer…” (5).
Here is Puddy’s paraphrase
'If you can manage to keep your hands off each other, and find time for prayer, that is fine"
So we see Paul gives a clear answer to sexual sin. Get married, Get naughty all the time.
Sadly religion has handed sex to Satan. Many young people growing up basically think that all the lust, thrills, and hard-on passion come out of sin. It is GOD who CREATED, the hot and heavy.
At one time Adam was complete within himself, but God didn’t separate humanity to keep them apart. Since the one was severed from the other, the yoking back together, really and truly is ‘one flesh’. So it is important to keep ourselves for marriage. You want to become ‘one flesh’, with the person you truly love.
Since this is a terrible struggle for young people, believers must talk openly about sex, and not make them feel ashamed for having such strong desires, and not to make them feel guilty for doing the ‘12 letter word starting in M’
Everything should be done, to see that younger people are given dating opportunities. Believers can inquire among friends, and Church acquaintances. Take the time to setup blind dates, and other activities.
Marriage for most believers is the only hope to stay out of sin.
Believers should openly discuss the joys and bliss of sex. It should be talked about and celebrated.
Believers should be the most passionate, erotic people in the world.
Well it depends . . . in the “missionary position” I guess it would be the male . . . .
(superior = on top – get it? huh?) Sorry – I know, I shouldn’t have done that.
Anyway, yes – this is a good point, Puddy. I don’t think your title accurately reflects your stance on this (Alas; titles are of necessity short), so hopefully people will read your OP. My parents weren’t real forthcoming about the “S” word. My mom never had “the talk” with me; she bought me a set of books (yes, a set) and when I was done reading, I still didn’t get it. The books were just too polite. But you know, we all figure that sort of thing out, um, naturally, don’t we?
I like your paraphrase of Paul’s advice – made me smile.
As for Zender, I’d listen, but I just can’t stand his stuff. He comes off as soooo arrogant.
I would agree on masturbation, only I’m not sure it’s possible to do that with a “pure mind.” I think that really, Paul’s advice is best. Get married. I suspect we make our “kids” wait a good deal too long to grow up, which is no doubt contributing a LOT to their struggles.
And that brings me to what I do want to talk about (which you didn’t mention – I agree with pretty much everything you said). These days so many people suffer with an addiction to pornography. With the internet, it’s ridiculously accessible. It’s no longer a monthly copy of a magazine in a brown wrapper (or even several of them). The menu is virtually unlimited and portion sizes are as much as you have time for. People are ashamed of this (usually, depending on the present company) but can’t seem to get freedom from it.
Complications are first, that it is unquestionably “looking to lust” and of course that’s a problem. With grace, we know we’re forgiven, but are we uninjured? This sort of “diet” raises expectations and needs, and a future spouse isn’t going to be able to fulfill those unnatural desires no matter how adventurous s/he may be. Like other drugs, the porn experience develops a resistance to the chemicals involved (in this case naturally produced in the body) and causes the person to need more and more of these chemicals in order to experience the same sensations.
It also objectifies women and children (and men). As believers, we may be able to resist that aspect, but of course the harm is still there for the world. It is a b.i.g problem for people. And especially hurtful to children who are exposed to it. Girls get the idea that this is what they’re for and that aside from that, they’re useless. Boys . . . well I can’t claim to know what boys think, but maybe it’s better that way.
Paul’s exposition of grace and righteousness in Romans is probably the best counsel anyone could ever have for actualizing/experiencing freedom from sin. (Yes, we ARE righteous when He declares us so, but that can feel like a failure if we keep on physically sinning.) Basically, we’re dead to the flesh (this world/the natural realm/etc.) and the flesh has no more power over us. It’s not enough to just hear that, or read over it once in a while, or “know” it. We need to KNOW it deep in our hearts, and that takes meditation on the word in the presence of the Father. We CAN be free from any bondage to sin through the empowerment of the Spirit and the washing of the water of the word. It may take some time to develop the kind of trust necessary to realize that we are indeed dead to this world, but it is so worth it.
So yeah . . . that’s my bit. My soapbox on the whole sex thing. Jesus came to set us free and he whom the Son sets free shall be truly free.
As it turns out, marriage doesn’t seem to keep people from sexual sin. People still engage in extra-marital affairs and read and watch pornography.
A friend and I have had some long conversations about what the Bible actually says about marriage and whether or not the church and society have overcomplicated things with unreasonable expectations of emotional and spiritual intimacy, friendship, perfect parenting, etc. Couple this with more and more people living far from their parents, thus not having the support and friendship of extended family. We are set up to feel like failures in our relationships. And that may lead some to look outside their marriage to be comforted.
I agree with Cindy that part of the problem is that we are prolonging childhood beyond reasonable bounds (creating a whole host of other problems, as well).
And, yeah, pornography is wreaking havoc everywhere.
Are you saying that marriage is only sex and not more than that?
No, Marriage is much more. Some couples in fact may not really be into sex itself. Still there is likely a sexual attraction. Maybe they simply enjoy holding hands during their daily walk. However, Jesus and John loved each other deeply, but there would have been no sexual attraction. It is the sexual attraction, and the becoming ‘one flesh’ that causes marriage.
I pushed the envelope somewhat, but I feel Christianity has been too puritan on this issue. Truthfully I see the harm in my own life. I understand that there is alot of extra-marital affairs, and pornography, but I am thinking alot of this is due to not seeing sexuality as a thing of beauty from God. I still struggle to see it as a gift from God.
I come to this issue with my own experiences, but never having been married, there are certainly other readers that can contribute more than me.
Still, I do take Paul’s words to heart on this issue. I do not claim perfection. It is because I myself have struggled that I see Paul’s wisdom.
Talking about the issue, Is healthy. In fact I plan on flying out to see some believers shortly, and the nice thing is I will be able to talk freely with them about my own failings and struggles.
Hopefully a good discussion will occur around this issue.
I’ll think on it, Puddy. I know that when I opened the thread I expected to see you expounding on the premise that to have sex with a person is, in fact, marriage. (And there could be some grounds for asserting that a couple who move in together and set up housekeeping, maybe start a family are, in effect, married – though I’m not certain I would agree with that.) Maybe “Sex is for Marriage/Marriage is for Sex”? (You could use a 4 instead of for if that’s too many characters.) That wouldn’t reflect the full body of your ideas, but it would maybe be a good compromise, given the limitations of length.
But what I understand you to be saying (without re-reading) is that the need for sex is good grounds for marriage, and that marriage is (at least on one level) designed with the purpose of satisfying sexual appetites. I would contend that while this is, imo, true, marriage has many more advantages than this alone. It seems that I’ve read somewhere (in a commentary probably) that because of the difficult situation of Christ followers at that time, couples sometimes elected not to marry, but rather to have a committed, loving, platonic relationship with one another. I could see this growing into a problem if people started to see this platonic relationship as superior to marriage, and the partners in it as somehow more spiritual. Paul seems to indicate that perhaps they are indeed more fortunate because of being less vulnerable to persecution (no children, for one thing). But he acknowledges the power of sexual attraction and advises these couples not to be afraid or to hesitate to marry if that’s what they need to do.
It does puzzle me that people in the world often/usually seem to have the idea that sex is dirty. I personally haven’t encountered this attitude in the church (where I might have expected to find it to a greater extent than in the world), but maybe that’s more a factor of the sorts of churches I’ve gone to than anything else. It does make me sad to see girls attending church (or the same girls attending school or work or wherever) dressed as though they’re “advertising the goods.” It doesn’t make me sad because I think they should be dressed unappealingly, but rather because it says to me that they don’t understand how valuable they are as girls/women, and they think they need to look a certain way and have a certain kind of “assets” in order to be seen as valuable.
We have bought into the “ethic” that sexual attractiveness is the principle use of women (and often men). There’s a lot more to it than that.
But for marriage, I think the highest way to look at it is as a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church. It amazes me how much of what we see in this natural world is a depiction of Jesus, to help us see and understand who He really is.
I don’t mean to divert the thread, but I can’t let this slip by:
How is it possible to BE righteous and keep on sinning? Would God “declare” us righteous, when in fact we are not? Wouldn’t that be a lie? Doesn’t God require ACTUAL righteousness in people? Or is He satisfied with “positional righteousness”? Isn’t “positional righteousness” just a sort of pretence which has no correspondence to reality?
Please note again, George MacDonald’s words in my signature.
Hey Paidion (finally spelt your name correct) I will let Lady’s go first, hold the door open for Cindy and see if she wants to respond.
Hey Cindy. I think we basically agree on Proposition #3. A side issue, but what worries me is young women exposing themselves over the internet. (To be accepted).
I blame pop music for some of this problem. Maybe I should just say pop culture.
Here’s a little thought from a seventtenth century Christian -
*Never marry but for love; but see that thou lovest what is lovely. He that minds a body and not a soul has not the better part of that relation, and will consequently want the noblest comfort of a married life *
I think the ideal of mariage as ‘the queen of friendships’ is something that only flowered slowly in Christian culture - but I’d see this as the spirit working to reveal good things.
Here’s one that hits close to home for me… like yourself Puddy I’m not a married man, though I’m not single, I’m engaged actually, and happily so, though for longer than I was expecting to be…
My fiancee, Kaylyn, and I early on decided that we were going to wait till marriage for sex… but we’ve been together for going on six years now, and it hasn’t been easy for me (she’s a virgin, unlike myself, and waiting doesn’t seem to trouble her nearly as much as it does me, but strangely enough I’m glad for that )… but I have no other choice really, just because of life’s circumstances… saving up for a wedding and for getting started, Kaylyn going to Job Corps, and now to college, and being concerned about what my mom, who is in some ways dependent upon me financially, is gonna do when I move out and move in with Kaylyn (Kaylyn lives with her mom at the moment as well), etc. It’s just life really.
For some people it’s not a simple matter of just getting hitched and being done with it, or at least it hasn’t been for me.
But, on the other hand, I have come to believe that there are reasons for why God has allowed things to turn out like this, has allowed all of this waiting.
I believe that there are some things that Kaylyn and I have needed, and will need (may be another year or two before we finally tie the knot), to experience and to learn, before we take the plunge… both Kaylyn and I come from divorced parents, so I have prayed over and over, I have even begged God time and time again, to keep us together, to make our bond strong and true, to help us to love each other and be committed to each other for the long haul, and not give up on each other… and I wonder if all of this is a way of answering those prayers. I wonder if all the waiting is a way of preparing us, and building the foundation for a strong and vibrant marriage that will last ‘till death do us part’…
Or at least that’s how I try to see it in order to keep from going nuts.
Like yourself Puddy I’ve struggled too, and continue to do so.
I’m sure Cindy had me in mind, as she and I have discussed this before, when she mentioned the whole pornography issue (and that’s okay Cindy, I don’t mind, love you sister ), which is something I’ve struggled with since I was a kid.
Though otherwise I’ve been faithful to Kaylyn all this time, pornography has been a bane to me for a long time.
Thankfully nowadays it doesn’t consume me as much as it did when I was a teenager…
I get into it maybe once a week (occasionally twice a week ), or, sometimes, can stay away from it for maybe a couple of weeks… it’s still a monkey on my back that I wish would disappear altogether, but it’s better than being consumed every day by it, like I used to be… my hope is that finally getting married and being with Kaylyn will help me with this struggle, though, like Kelli said, marriage doesn’t always solve these kinds of problems… I’ll just have to wait and see I guess…
I also believe that there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with masturbation. Kaylyn doesn’t want me being wrapped up in pornography (mainly for the kinds of reasons that Cindy pointed out), but she doesn’t mind my having to masturbate… with the understanding that I only fantasize about her and no one else, which I think is fair enough, and I don’t have too much trouble with that… I know, she and I have an odd relationship.
Whether this is pure or not I can’t really say, but I do believe that God understands my need for some kind of outlet, and I believe it’s far less damaging to me spiritually than watching porn, which I believe God wants me to stay away from, though he forgives me and still loves me even when I do give into temptation… but I don’t know.
Though I agree with those who condemn pornography, for the kinds of reasons that Cindy pointed out, even as I struggle with it myself, I am frustrated with those who condemn masturbation by itself as sin, and telling young, viral men and women (mainly men) that they just have to hold it in until they get married.
Those who take such a stance by and large seem to fall into either one of two (or both of these) categories: one, people who are married and have a known legitimate outlet for their desires ; or two, people who have a low sex drive, and therefore don’t struggle as much themselves with this conundrum.
I personally believe that such people have no room to speak at all about things like this, or to judge those who do struggle with this…
I believe it’s honestly none of their business, and they should, to put it bluntly, shut their pie-holes and stop putting cruel burdens on others to make themselves feel more righteous and holy.
And by the way, no, masturbation does not cause blindness nor will it cause your flesh to rot.
Sorry, just had to get that out… okay, I feel better now.
Puddy, though there are some here (like myself) who are more or less open to the idea that one need not be legally married in the eyes of the state in order to be married in God’s eyes, or even open to the idea that one need not be technically married in order to have sex in a God-ordained context, I agree that sex shouldn’t be seen as something shameful, though, like yourself, I have struggled with seeing it as something shameful, and in large part because I have never had the chance to experience it as anything other than that…
And I agree that believers should be among some of the most erotic people on the planet (within appropriate boundaries ), a la the beautifully written and most surely hot and bothered masterpiece of holy eroticism, Song of Songs
I think you and I are more or less on the same page, when it comes to this, and I admire and appreciate your openness about this, bro
May the Lord bring us all to a place where we can be naked and unashamed, and not only in body, but in spirit.
Aw Matt – yes I knew you’d read this and like Kaitlyn, I want you free. It’s miserable to be in bondage to anything, and while Father loves you through it, He means to have you in a state of glorious liberty. I think a discovery-type study of Romans would help – I know it’s been amazing for me. You and Kaitlyn could even do it together, and if I haven’t told you how already, it’s on my blog: journeyintotheson.com/2012/0 … ble-study/
And Paidion, though I mention from time to time that you and I disagree on many things (which we do), I don’t think this is one of them. Yes, we DO need to obey our Father. It isn’t okay to sin because of His grace to forgive. But for the declaring of the ungodly to be righteous (that is, I think in large part, a declaration of being in a right relationship with Him), I offer these passages from Paul – If I’m misunderstanding them, I’ll be delighted (and I’m not being sarcastic – I mean it) to be corrected by you, my brother.
I really appreciated your honesty, my friend. It is not easy. When it comes to masterbation, (I was too shy to use the term in the article) it is wise to use some kind of lubricant if you do it alot. Some say doing it everyday can do damage.
I don’t have the same struggle as you, but I am a masochist. For some reason I seem to like pain. I am attracted to dominant women. This is my weakness, and am thankful for God’ grace.
I would say, if it was not for the grace of God, I would have been a lifestyle submissive. I don’t feel it is wrong to enjoy such activities within marriage, but my struggle caused me to remain single. I felt a women would look down at my problem. (It could be that losing my Mother at a young age, caused me to desire a replacement for my Mom.)
This has helped humble me in life. I already feel the lowest of the low. I am so thankful that God loves me. I dream of Christ holding me in his arms, but I think I would just fall at his feet sobbing. I have thought about trying to help others who struggle with sexual sin, especially in the area of bdsm. Maybe by setting up a website.
I wish I was wealthy, so I could just give you the money to get married. This is Paul’s answer for your struggle. Remember, you have to always remain faithful to your wife. If you don’t, you will ruin your life, and see it end in depression and despair, and bring great pain to the one you love the most.
Is it not true, that the more we struggle with something the more we are actually thinking about it? Think of walking through a field during the winter. If we concentrate on ourselves and keep looking down at our feet, our path in the snow will be crooked. If we look straight ahead at an object our path in the snow will be straight.
If we struggle alone with our sin, our walk will be crooked. If we focus on Christ, and get excited about the scriptures, and share our weakness with others it will help.
It is good that we are discussing this, and hope it will encourage others who might be struggling alone with sin. We can bear each others burdens.
I appreciate your encouragement and support, sis That’s Kaylyn, by the way Everybody says Kaitlyn
I know, I’m with a girl who has a unique name, I feel special
Honestly though I’m not sure if a Bible-study would really help.
And neither Kaylyn nor I are avid Bible readers, to be honest (though both of us have read it all the way through at least once ), and even if we were, we don’t spend enough time together to where we really have time to focus on that sort of thing anyway. Maybe once we’re married we’ll have more time for that sort of thing, if we feel up to it.
And Kaylyn is honestly the type where she’d rather just watch movies or play video games or go out places together, instead of sitting around doing a Bible study or having in-depth discussions about spiritual matters, though she is open to praying together from time to time (I lead, while we snuggle, and she starts tickling me if I take too long ), and occasionally we have gone to church services together, and have worshiped together (which was great, and I love connecting with her in that way… we haven’t for awhile, and I miss that… hopefully we can do that sometime next month, go to a Christmas service together somewhere or something…).
I’m hoping that once she and I are living under the same roof that we’ll have more opportunities to connect spiritually.
I’m hoping that she can come to the Universalist group with me, as I imagine I’ll still be a part of that.
However, I’m just being honest here. In some ways I’ve become disillusioned with the Bible, though I do want to take another crack at it sometime, reading it with what I’ve learned in the last year or so in mind… and I may take a look at your link sometime.
You’re welcome, bro Aye, none of this is easy. I can understand why guys like Augustine bemoaned the fact that God had ever created sex to begin with.
I mean, in the past, in my early twenties, before I met Kaylyn, when I was sleeping with the women that I had dated during that time, in the moment I was thinking ‘this is awesome!’, but afterwards I always felt guilt and shame, because I wasn’t married to any of them.
I do hope that when I am actually married, when I’m with Kaylyn, it will be different, something that I can feel good about, feel that God has blessed… I do hope that I can experience sexuality as something that is spiritually good and not just physically good, and not just in theory but in reality… I guess I’ll just have to wait and see.
And you may be right about the masturbation thing. If one overdoes it can do some skin damage down there, I know.
I confess that I do it often, viral young man that I am, but I rarely have had any issues with skin damage of any kind.
I think the fact that I take a shower every day probably helps with that, and keeps it from being an issue.
Yes, I know everyone, TMI But hey, we’re all grown-ups here, as far as I know
Yeah, the closest I came to that sort of thing was one of the women I was in my early twenties who liked biting, scratching, choking… crazy stuff I went with it at the time, but I think honestly it kind of scared me, and I have no intention of bringing that sort of thing into the bedroom with Kaylyn in the future… I’m not really sure about whether it’s right or wrong, I just know that my past brief experience with that sort of thing was enough for me.
Despite this struggle you have, you strike me as a good guy, and a girl would be lucky to have you.
And I’m sorry about your mom, bro
I’m right there with you, bro, know just how you feel.
Money isn’t the problem so much as Kaylyn finishing school and finding a job. I mean, I’d love to make enough to support her and any kids that come along, but you know how it is.
If you could take care of my mom though so I didn’t have to worry about her anymore, that would be great
I do pray a lot that God will help me to remain faithful. Kaylyn already told me straight out that if I cheat on her she’ll more likely than not leave me. She draws the line at that, abuse, and drugs/alcohol, which I believe is fair enough.
The latter two won’t be an issue, at least for me, as I’m not a violent person (at least not with others, I have abused myself at times, which is another issue entirely), and I’ve never had a problem with drugs or alcohol, but the temptation to cheat is something every man in a relationship struggles with, I know, so that will be something I will keep praying about, that God will help me to remain faithful.
I like that image of walking through the snow. Focusing on Christ is something I’m still learning about. I don’t even know exactly what it means… I mean, people say it a lot, we all say it, that we should do that, but Jesus isn’t some flesh and blood person that we can look at and focus on in a literal sense. What that means in a spiritual sense I don’t fully understand, I just know it’s important, whatever it means.
I do have the deep intuition though that it has a lot to do with love.
As far as getting excited about the scriptures, as I shared with Cindy that’s a complicated issue with me, and in the past I’ve had more dread when it came to reading the Bible than I had excitement, but like I said, I may take another crack at it.
I totally hear you though about sharing our weaknesses and burdens with one another. We shouldn’t fight these battles alone.
For sure, it’s good being able to open up about things like this with one another.
And it’s not just our struggle with things that we feel bad about (or ‘sin’), but with just life in general.
And though I still don’t fully understand the whole atonement thing, and all the theological theories, Jesus dying for all of us, and all of that, the fact that Jesus reached out to screwed up people, not unlike myself, and suffered and died like so many people do, shared willingly in the pain of humanity, but was not defeated by the weight of all that, was not beaten by death, gives me hope, and knowing that God identifies intimately somehow with all the broken and messy people, including myself, helps me to keep going and not give up.
Well, that should be enough of my rambling for now
Thanks for your response, and your honesty once again. Also thank you for accepting me for the way I am. I actually went to a shrink about it, (to get answers, I guess) but I am more relaxed with who I am now. I still believe man is head of the relationship, but If I ever get married I would like my wife to be more like that crazy girlfriend you meantioned.
Anyway, maybe try Bible in audio? Still the Bible can be frustrating, whatever the approach.
I figure if anyone is gonna throw themselves in front of the social etiquette bus, it mi’aswell be me
And no problem, we’re all different, and that’s good that you’ve come to accept where you’re at, and don’t beat yourself up about it. Whether the things we struggle with are right or wrong, one thing’s for sure, beating ourselves up about it won’t help anything.
We’ve discussed S & M a bit here before, and I think there’s no real consensus on whether it’s right or wrong.
The Bible doesn’t appear to mention it at all, and the only reason I can think of that anyone would condemn it is because they think it’s weird or unnatural.
Personally, if others want to do that in the context of a loving and committed relationship built on trust and mutual respect, then I don’t see any problem with it, but it’s not my kind of thing.
I’m all for passionate, thunderous lovemaking (though gentle, tender lovemaking is nice too ), but the whips and chains are a little too much for me.
I’m kind of iffy on the headship of the man thing, and subscribe to a more equal footing viewpoint for the most part, but I get where you’re coming from, and we all see things a little differently.
But anyways, trust me though, you wouldn’t have any interest in the crazy girlfriend I had… she was very bi-polar, controlling, manipulative, mean, and a Wiccan (don’t have any big problem with that necessarily, but just thought I’d mention)… and I was relieved when she dumped me, 'cuz I was too afraid to break up with her for fear of how she’d react.
In short, you wouldn’t be interested, and it’s not like I could set you up anyway.
I know a lady, named Lynnie, who’s a fairly liberal and open-minded believer (somewhat open to but not convinced of UR) who also has a thing for S & M, but she doesn’t feel good about it and believes it’s wrong, and wants to be free of it, so… but just thought I’d mention to show that there may be a few women out there who share the same faith but are also on the same wavelength as you when it comes to sexual matters.
And I’ve thought of listening to the Bible on audio… maybe someday if I get an Ipod and can fit the Bible on there I might give it a try. Until then, I’ll just try to pick away at the Bible the old fashioned way. And yes, the Bible can be very frustrating, that’s for sure.
However, there are some things I’ve read in there that really spoke to me and resonated deeply in my heart, some things that made sense and gave me hope.
In other words, there are some parts that aren’t frustrating and confusing to me.
And aye, we do indeed have way too many struggles… but then again, we’re not alone in any of those struggles, and that’s an encouraging thought.
I have been feeling very self conscious about opening up about my sexual desires.
S & M can be easily confused with abuse or violence. It can be, outside of a loving relationship. However, what if it is practiced within a loving relationship? If both partners enjoy the intensity, then where is the wrong?
Some people like sports, that batter and bruise. Some people gravitate to extreme sports that involve substantial risk. Is this wrong?
Real Jousting is a growing sport. They hit each other with lances. Is that okay?, but a wife erotically whipping and beating her husband is wrong?
In boxing, they can punch each other till they drop unconscious. That is okay?, but a wife erotically slapping her husband is wrong?
I can understand why S & M can seem weird and strange to most people, but does this constitute it a sin? You are correct that the bible is quiet on the matter. It is very quiet. If it clearly said it was wrong, I would accept it.
Masterbation is not condemned in the Bible either. How the desire can be controlled in a young man, so that he never masterbates, is beyond me. Do people honestly think King David never masterbated?
Since, you have a girlfriend, maybe ask her to write you erotic letters, and you can masterbate while you read them.
Perhap’s nothing shows the bondage of the will, as the sexual burn. We all have our breaking point. All God has to do is rachet up a person’s sex drive, and how will the King David’s escape?
It is sad that your friend (Lynnie) feels so guilty about her S&M desires. Wow, she could make some man (such as myself) very happy. S & M is actually a form of bonding between partners. It requires a great deal of trust.
Don’t be too hard on yourself my friend. God loves you just the way you are. It sounds like you have a very strong sex drive, so good luck with not masterbating. Except for maybe the wierdo Saul turned Paul, who persecuted believers, and maybe a gloomy prophet or two, I suspect most of the godly men in the scriptures, had FIRST HAND knowledge of masterbation.
Concerning ‘headship’ of the male. In Canada our ‘head’ is the Queen of England. This serves it’s good purpose, but in all practicality, the power rests with Parliament.
Speaking man to man, bloke to bloke here – openness and honesty are good things; and some forms of the Christian tradition have overemphasised the depravity of our sexual nature.
However, I think it’s important to try and keep stuff in a loving balance.
I’ve got a completely non-judgemental hat on here (so please don’t misread my voice as a voice of thunder). But I just want to make a couple of observations –
This is a very public space – it’s on the world wide web. We don’t all use our real names here – which gives us a degree of protection. However, I think we are still putting ourselves in some danger if we reveal our most private and intimate details too readily (which includes the scope of our sexual fantasies in my book). Perhaps the danger is not so much from other people – it’s more that we can become deceived into thinking ‘this is real’.
I think it is probably healthier when we talk about sex and sexual morality to keep something back from the public glare. It’s good training in life skills to be aware of the boundaries of ‘appropriateness’ – which are often about boundaries between the public and the private (the ‘private’ doesn’t necessarily mean matters best kept to ourselves – it can also mean matters best shared between people who know each other very well and have developed in mutual care).
The other general point here is that this conversation actual has two lasses in it – Cindy and Kelli. Although neither strikes me as easily ‘shockable’, and both certainly have loving hearts and are slow to judge, well… an intimate laddish conversation about sexual fantasies is actually turning them into spectators – it’s objectivising them. I can only say that I’m getting a bit uncomfortable for them
Och I’m no greater expert in the tangled nature of desire than anyone else. But I make the above observations in a spirit of warm friendship.
I am sure you are correct. I am quite a libertarian in my ways, and hold strongly to free speech. Still I likely should have struck more of a balance. I don’t always know what is appropriate or not, so for me, this will be a ‘goodbye’ At least this is how I feel, but now I have a boldness returning. I feel we are all grown ups on this forum. I am not forcing anyone to read what I say. If I bothered anyone, I apologize, but I have great respect for women.
It was great conversing with all of you, and Matt I will pray for you.
I look forward to continuing to converse.
I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve in everything, and I tend to be an open book wherever I go, including the internet… though I will hold back when I feel there is a need to.
For instance, if I were in a group of hellfire believing Christians, I would probably be hesitant to bring up universalism. Or if I were in a room full of conservative Republicans, I would probably be hesitant to bring up my fairly liberal and open-minded political views, or that I’m registered as a Democrat.
And also the topic at hand is important.
I would not open up about where I’m at sexually in a discussion about, say, music, but rather I would open up about what kind of music I listen to, as that would be the topic of discussion.
Yet since we’re talking about sex here, I felt free to open up about it.
But, like I said, you may be right. There are a couple ladies here who have been active in this conversation, and I confess that I didn’t really stop to think about whether taking the conversation into more ‘boyish’ territory would make them uncomfortable. And perhaps it’s best not to open up too much about personal stuff of this nature in a public forum… even if Puddy and I have no problem with that, there may be others who would be uncomfortable with it, and that’s something to think about… so thanks for having the wherewithal to point that out, bro.
Blessings to you As my dad would say, ‘you are a gentleman and a scholar, and there’s damn few of us left’.
Cindy, Kelli, my apologies if I’ve weirded either of you out at all with my openness, and my apologies to anyone else that I’ve weirded out, in any way, shape, or form. Even after 30 years I’m still learning about social boundaries, which I’ve always had a hard time with… ah well, slow learning is better than no learning.
Hey, there’s no need to leave bro I think you’re bringing up some good stuff, and you are most welcome here
And I was gonna suggest that maybe you and I could move this conversation we’re having to private message, where we can be as open as we’d like about all of this stuff without fear of making anyone uncomfortable.
I probably should have suggested that a little while ago, but was too airheaded to do so
And thank you for your prayers, I’ll pray for you too bro
Yes, private message is fine. To be honest I was fully aware what I was doing. Maybe I just did not fully understand the shock value. However, sexual addiction is destroying lives, and if we do not confront the problem directly, by talking openly about everything, well? How can it be dealt with.
Still I also apologize if I offended anyone. Women can handle alot, it is us men that ‘pout’ and go into hibernation when we feel sick. It can easily be argued that Women are superior to men, and can handle more stress. So if I bothered anyone, It may be the male readers, and not the Women.
But you know, we all figure that sort of thing out, um, naturally, don’t we?
)… but I have no other choice really, just because of life’s circumstances… saving up for a wedding and for getting started, Kaylyn going to Job Corps, and now to college, and being concerned about what my mom, who is in some ways dependent upon me financially, is gonna do when I move out and move in with Kaylyn (Kaylyn lives with her mom at the moment as well), etc. It’s just life really.