The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Salvation from...?

Theology Soteriology
#61

Your philosopy is somewhat interesting–but I do not see it taught in scripture. What is interesting to me is to be as the Bereans who were praised because they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true. I would like to consider a scripturally based argument to support what you are saying. But if that’s just a waste of time for you, I’m not sure why you keep posting your views?

I agree that scripture can be used to come up with a variety of doctrines–that doesn’t mean I must believe them–my goal is to understand what God means by the scriptures. But apparently you won’t even bother to support your doctrine with scripture at all? Why then should I give any consideration at all to your words, since my goal is to understand the teaching of God, rather than the personal philosophy of every man who cares to tell me what he thinks?

I understand that you feel you have had some revelation that is yet to come to me, however there are many others in the world who also claim to have had a special revelation, and it has not been revealed to me that your revelation is more valid anyone else’s or than my own revelations.

Respectfully,
Sonia

#62

Ah, the old Berean line, long a favorite of the literalist, that have not been called past the letter of the written word. In order to share with you the meanings and likeness of such, as the lake of fire and the cross, I would be delving into the allegory found in the verses. Thus my apprehension in spending much time sharing scripture. You want apples and I would be sharing oranges.

*“Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.” Matt 13:13 *

Be blessed,

John

#63

:laughing:

Well, in that case, I guess we have nothing further to discuss!
Sonia :sunglasses:

#64

Saved ourselves both some time and effort. I like that. :mrgreen:

#65

As I’ve re-read this thread, I think Mike helped me out alot here on the 1st page of posts, usinng his example of his relationship to his son.

I presented a dillema of which on one hand we want people to stay away from God’s wrath because it’s a horrible place to be (hell). On the other hand we believe it is God’s wrath that breaks us of our arrogance and opens our eyes that we might receive the truth.

Mike’s example of how he deals with his son shows me that they can both be true and yet be good at the same time.

When we warn our little ones to not play on the road “or else”, we’re looking out for the best of our child. That does not qualify that if he does not listen he will not get some nasty repricussion to keep him safe. He will indeed get punished but for his benefit. So they are both true. Hell can be a place we absoltutely want no one to go to and at the same time believe it is for our benefit if we should proceed to disobey the one who understands clearly (God).

Issues like this can at times become hazy for me and because of language limitations I think we have real disconnects with traditionalists.

Gene

#66

When Jesus says “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”, I interpret this to mean that all will come, but there is a path or journey that all must follow. This path is more like a school, where we learn lessons along the way. Our purpose here on earth is to develop a well-balanced, majestic personality. Observe the ways of Jesus to discover the true path.

#67

Osri.

you said: When Jesus says “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”, I interpret this to mean that all will come, but there is a path or journey that all must follow.

Aaron37: No where in this verse does it inidcate “all” will come to the Father through Jesus. You have added that to the text to support your man made doctrine.

#68

This seems to be the experience of Paul in the book of Romans, particularly chapters 6-8.

*"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." - Romans 6:3-5*

We experience Christ’s death here and now. It is not something we do, for it is already been done. But we must somehow identofy with it.

*“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” - vs 11 *

It was difficult for a time to understand this until I read Watchman Nee’s book, *'The Normal Christian Life". *It is this reckoning that has become the most difficult concept for me to grasp. We died with Christ at the Cross. It is more than just a mindset, it has to be experienced.

#69

That’s the truth Dondi! Please allow me to further your thought by saying, one of the most wonderful concepts to grasp is the dynamic of “is, was and will be.” This wonderfully applies to Christ and Cross.

Christ was slain even before the foundations. He manifested that sacrifice in the flesh on Calvary 2000 years ago. He manifests the crucifixion today and even tomorrow, as He walks out His death in each of His saints.

Taking it a step further, we were in Christ before the foundations. We were in Christ at Calvary. We are in Christ today and will be tomorrow. We will be in Christ until the last man is made whole. The last man is important because we are even in that last man. When the last man realizes Jesus, then as the body of Christ, filled with every man, we find our fulfilment.and eternal rest as Christ lays down His reign, and steps into the Father and is as the “Father, God, All in All.”

These are the wheels within the wheel. And it just blows my mind!

The Trinitarians probably won’t accept the thought of “Christ is as the Father” because they prefer complexity. However, I have hope. :mrgreen:

Jack

#70

John.

No, you make it complex by calling the Son the Father.

#71

Mike, best post I’ve read on this site so far.

#72

Thanks Richard, I’ve enjoyed reading your posts as well.

Paul Anderson Walsh says that we are not punished for our sin but we are punished by our sin. I see the story in Romans one and the story of the Prodigal speaking to this. God’s wrath is giving us what we want until we want nothing but Him, yet He is continually saving us from His wrath by saving us from sin; doing things our way.

#73

Jason

For those who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior have been redeemed from the curse of the law. We have been redeemed from the power of the sin nature/ spiritual death nature. We have been completely delivered spirtually, physically/emotionally, and financially through faith…whether you walk in it or not is another topic.

God bless,
Aaron

#74

Aaron, a lot of our differences involve semantics. There is a difference between “positional” and “experiencial” truth. With respect to our position before God, we have already been “seated in the heavenlies,” but with respect to our daily walk, we are not experiencing all that is available to us. From God’s point of view, everything is a “done deal,” but from our point of view, we experience our salvation as a process. A lot more is available to us that we are ready and/or willing to receive, it seems.

#75

Richard

The only part of our salvation that is a process (as you put it) is the waiting for our redeemed/glorified bodies and experiencing heaven…everything else we are partakers of right now…in this life. Whether you walk in it or not does not change what Jesus has done for us. Please go back and read Colossians 1:12-14.

God bless,
Aaron

#76

Keep on going and read Colossians 1:20.

#77

Nimble

What about Colossians 1:20? if you want to talk… lets talk… don’t just drop scriptures on me… and ask me how I interpret them… and not respond… That is lame, Nimble.

God bless,
Aaron

#78

…and the lame shall leap and the dumb will speak :smiley:

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself**; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What part of all things **won’t ****be reconciled?

Now as lame as I am I understand that this is a direct question that should be easy for you to answer.

#79

Nimble

you said: What part of all things won’t be reconciled?

Now as lame as I am I understand that this is a direct question that should be easy for you to answer.

Aaron: More easy for me to answer than you to respond after I answer. It is important not to interpret this passage in a way that would contradict the clear teaching of other scriptures. Therefore, unrepentant men and fallen angels must be excluded from the things that will be reconciled to God. Satan’s kingdom is spoken of as being under the earth (Phil. 2:10) and in the lower parts of the earth (Eph. 4:9). So, all those damned to hell will not be ultimately reconciled to God. This verse is speaking of all things in heaven and on earth coming back into harmony with God.

The things on earth that will be reconciled to God include those individuals who put saving faith in Christ. The animal creation (Rom. 8:19-21) as well as this physical world will be renovated and reconciled to God (Rev. 21:1). But what are the things in heaven that will be reconciled to God if demonic powers are excluded?

Apparently sin affected not only people and this world but the universe and heaven itself. It is possible that the deterioration that we see evident in this world extends throughout the heavens. The scriptures speak of war in heaven where Satan and his angels were cast out and down to the earth and their place was found no more (Rev. 12:7-9). This war may have caused scars on the universe which will be purged. Whatever place Satan occupied must be vile and therefore must be cleansed. Certainly the demonic presence of Satan before the throne of God (Job 1:6, 2:1) brought some defilement to the glory of heaven. Jesus will bring all of the creation in heaven and on earth back into the glorious harmony that was originally intended.

God bless,
Aaron

#80

Then why not interpret the passage in a way that does not contradict the clear teaching of other “universalistic” Scriptures, such as I Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive?” I could quote hundreds more verses throughout the Scriptures which support the doctrine of universal reconciliation.

It seems to me you are avoiding the most obvious and natural interpretion in order to avoid a universalist conclusion.