Most definitely agree. Fasting is such a huge discipline builder, precisely because we are denying a very primal “need”. Food deprivation, is very hard on the mind, and the Minnesota Starvation experiment by Ancel Keys is the #1 resource in how people respond to hunger and rehabilitate to health.
Anything is possible but then we could speculate that the resurrection was metaphorical too? Also Jesus referred to Satan several times like he is "the Father of lies"or “I saw Satan falling from the sky” or “Your Father the Devil” etc.
The Old Testament clearly indicates that David sinned in numbering Israel.(Why that was sin, I’ll probably never know). But the question is: who incited David to sin in this way? Here is the account in 2 Samuel:
Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.”
But David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.” (2 Sam 24:1,2,10 ESV)
And here is the account, written centuries later in 1 Chronicles:
Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.”
But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” (I Chron 21:1,2,7,8 ESV)
So if Satan is “metaphorical” does this mean that the Satan in 1 Chronicles was actually God? (as in 2 Samuel)
Or could it be that God is “metaphorical” too?
Thank you qaz, for sharing your understanding of the matter.
The definition or importance of the resurrection has nothing to do with the logic of the idea of calling a being like Satan metaphorical, who is referenced numerous times by Jesus and Peter and Paul and Jude and John and other bible authors. These are the same bible authors we rely on for the accounts of the resurrection.
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I wonder how those that deny Satan as a person, an intelligent being created by Love Omnipotent, explain the “very personal” passages away.
In any case, does it effect any significant doctrines or beliefs either way, whether one believes he is a person or a thing?
And as far as practical Christian living is concerned, what does it matter whether the Devil is a person or is a personification? Either way he/it is to be resisted:
James 4:6 But He gives us more grace. This is why it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Ephesians 4:27
and do not give the devil a foothold.
Ephesians 6:11
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes.
Ephesians 6:13
Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1 Peter 5:9
Resist him, standing firm in your faith and in the knowledge that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.
My guess is that they do it by classifying these passages as personifications of evil.
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If i recall the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4 has been explained as coming from His own sin nature rather than a real being called the Devil. Of course that is heresy.
Matthew 4: 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted a by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ b ”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ c ”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ d ”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ e ”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of this world but Jesus didn’t challenge the fact that Satan could do that, which is interesting. It suggests Satan is the god of this world which would answer a lot of questions.
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There is no satan, and there is no HELL.
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Jesus encountered Satan and spoke to him as Origen stated.
What will be the next thing for you? That there is no Jesus?
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The sea and wind are not recorded to have spoken back to Jesus, unlike certain evil spirits. But since all things were made through God the Son (John 1:1-3), and he has authority over all (Matthew 28:18), that authority must include the wind and the waves!
Also, regarding inanimate wind and waves submitting to Jesus, possibly there was a malicious intelligence BEHIND the sudden windstorm that overtook Jesus and the disciples on the lake of Galilee (Mark 4:37-41). After all, we recall from Job that the archangel Satan was behind the “natural” disasters that struck him (Job 1), disasters which Job attributed to God (a misattribution which I believe Job made in ignorance).
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You’re waxing ludicrous, qaz. What are you trying to prove?
The sun and moon praising God are figures of speech. Letting not your left hand know what the right hand is doing is a figure of speech, wherein a body part represents a person.
Satan is not a figure of speech. He is a malicious being.
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Don, you are fun. The idea of real vs metaphorical satan totally bypasses you. And that is okay, so I don’t believe in a literal satan. You do. as we go through life we will either believe or not believe, and you will be responsible to the flock you preach to. Telling folks there is a satan and a hell is quite a position. Thanks.
And telling people that there is no hell or Satan, is quite a position.
What do you do when someone says to you, “If there is no hell or Satan, I’ll just live the way I please, for there will be no consequences”?
I know that belief in hell or Satan is not a sufficient reason for becoming a Christian, and that there are other adverse consequences for living as you please. But for some people, the existence of hell and Satan is their only reason.
Yes it is, and it is a great revelation.
First of all, I have never encountered anyone saying that, not sure what kind of folks you are hanging around with but for me, none of my friends ever asked that sort of question, and I would ask why you seem to feel that human nature with others would tend to gravitate to a satan or a hell, and why you would be so contrary to the idea that there may not be a satan or a hell. It is simply an idea. One I tend to believe.
How do i know “that the sun, moon, mountains, and trees aren’t beings with characters of their own?” Common sense. It’s BTW common knowledge that even children have.
“How do you know Satan is a being,”? The testimony of many Scriptures. Some examples are cited or quoted in the present thread and here:
But, again, as i said earlier, what does it really matter:
What questions, Steve? Compare Satan as god of this world in Mt.4 to:
Gal.1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.