Sodom

[Michael]

Jesus said that if the miracles that had been done in Bethesda had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes, The God of Isaiah says that He knows the end from the beginning, John said that God knows all things, and David said He knew his words before they came out of his mouth, and Solomon said that God is everywhere.

So why did God send the angels to Sodom?

Why did He tell Abraham “Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah has come before me and their sins are very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to their cry which has come before me; and if not, I will know”?

That’s from Genesis 18:20-21, and I know the standard answer is that this is an anthropomorphism, but why does the God of the Bible sometimes mus-represent Himself this way.

If He knows what the people of Tyre and Sidon would have done if they had seen the miracles done in Bethesda, if He knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother’s womb, and if He knew David’s thoughts before they came out of his mouth, surely He knew just how wicked the Sodomites were, and what they’d try to do to two angels they took as strangers in their city.

Why does He represent Himself to Abraham as having to go down and see?

Was Abraham’s understanding so far beneath David’s, Solomon’s, Jeremiah’s, and Isaiah’s (and ours today) that God had to speak to him as a child?

Has any ancient or modern commentator ever explained why God used these anthropomorphisms?

[rline]

Was this the one where Abraham keeps requesting “If there’s even 20 people…”?

If so, maybe it’s to show something about Abraham, and also maybe for us, in how Paul says the OT is there as examples for us. Just some initial random thoughts…

[firstborn888]

Jesus said that if the miracles that had been done in Bethesda had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes, The God of Isaiah says that He knows the end from the beginning, John said that God knows all things, and David said He knew his words before they came out of his mouth, and Solomon said that God is everywhere.

So why did God send the angels to Sodom?

Why did He tell Abraham “Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah has come before me and their sins are very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to their cry which has come before me; and if not, I will know”?

That’s from Genesis 18:20-21, and I know the standard answer is that this is an anthropomorphism, but why does the God of the Bible sometimes mus-represent Himself this way.

If He knows what the people of Tyre and Sidon would have done if they had seen the miracles done in Bethesda, if He knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother’s womb, and if He knew David’s thoughts before they came out of his mouth, surely He knew just how wicked the Sodomites were, and what they’d try to do to two angels they took as strangers in their city.

Why does He represent Himself to Abraham as having to go down and see?

Was Abraham’s understanding so far beneath David’s, Solomon’s, Jeremiah’s, and Isaiah’s (and ours today) that God had to speak to him as a child?

Has any ancient or modern commentator ever explained why God used these anthropomorphisms?

Passages like those lead some to believe that God is not omniscient and does not know the future in any absolute sense. There’s a name for the theology (can’t remember it but it’s discussed somewhere on this site.

Personally I believe it’s different writers having different ideas about God - simple as that.

[WE_ARE_ALL_BROTHERS]

Passages like those lead some to believe that God is not omniscient and does not know the future in any absolute sense. There’s a name for the theology (can’t remember it but it’s discussed somewhere on this site.

Open Theism (open futurism)? Open Theists don’t believe that God isn’t omniscient, they believe that there is no absolute future to know (the future just doesn’t exist yet) though Yahweh does know every possible universe – the metaverse. Or something like that. I don’t have much of an understanding of it at all, but I did some quick sleuthing and TGB is an Open Theist and you can read some of his thoughts in Divine Omniscience and Probabilistic Events and Open Theism and the Origin of Sin if anyone is interested. Both threads are largely over my head.

[Michael]

Was this the one where Abraham keeps requesting “If there’s even 20 people…”?

If so, maybe it’s to show something about Abraham, and also maybe for us, in how Paul says the OT is there as examples for us. Just some initial random thoughts…

Thank you.

Along the same lines, I found this interesting.

Friday Files – Chisholm Anatomy of an Anthropomorphism: Does God Discover Facts?
Submitted by Godismyjudge on Fri, 01/29/2010 - 7:49am

Robert Chisholm’s article “ANATOMY OF AN ANTHROPOMORPHISM: DOES GOD DISCOVER FACTS?” explains OT texts like Genesis 18:20-21 and 22:12, which seem to indicate God does not know everything. Chisholm is not satisfied with saying they are antropromorphic and leaving it at that; he seeks a full understanding of why the passages, on the surface, indicate God is learning something.

According to Chisholm “when God speaks within a metaphorical framework, His words may veil certain aspects of the divine nature, but they have a specific function to perform that contributes powerfully to His purpose) in the world of the narrative.” Chisholm continues “the literary context of each passage provides the key to understanding why God did this. In each case God’s anthropomorphic self-revelation occurs within a metaphorical framework that is inherently relational in nature. God assumes a relational role and then speaks in a way that is consistent with it. Through His anthropomorphic self-revelation God made it clear that His relationship with Abraham was personal and dynamic. The metaphor boldly fleshes out the underlying reality. By revealing Himself in this way God also emphasized the importance of human responsibility. Human decisions would play a formative role in how the future of Abraham and his world would unfold. God grants human beings, whom He has made in (or as) His image, the dignity of causality. His plan for human history accommodates human decisions and actions, as well as His own responses to them.”

Regarding Genesis 18, Chisholm comments, “the context depicts the Lord in the role of cosmic judge. When Abraham heard the Lord speak of the moral condition of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham interceded on behalf of the cities because of his concern for the well-being of Lot and his family. He asked rhetorically, “Will not the judge of the whole earth do what is right?” (v. 25).17 Judges, at least those committed to justice, typically get the facts straight before they issue a ruling and execute justice.”

Chisholm continues, “the Lord considered it appropriate to share His intentions with Abraham (v. 17), which suggests that the language was dynamic and motivational. Perhaps the Lord wanted to prepare Abraham emotionally to accept predetermined divine judgment. The angels’ words to Lot in 19:13-14 may imply this was the case, but they do not necessarily carry such an implication.19 If judgment was not a foregone conclusion (at least from a historical perspective) before the angels’ arrival, then it is possible the Lord’s words in 18:20-21 were designed to motivate Abraham to assume the role of intercessor and to prompt the response they elicited.”

evangelicalarminians.org/node/827

[Paidion]

Jesus said that if the miracles that had been done in Bethesda had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes, The God of Isaiah says that He knows the end from the beginning, John said that God knows all things, and David said He knew his words before they came out of his mouth, and Solomon said that God is everywhere.

None of these passages state that God KNOWS (in the absolute sense) what free-will agents will do. If God KNOWS that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M., then you WILL raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M. Or if God KNOWS that you will NOT raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M., then you will NOT raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M. Either way there is something you cannot do. Either you cannot raise your hand ad 3 P.M. tomorrow, or you cannot refrain from raising your hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow. So where is your free will? It’s not that God’s foreknowledge causes you to raise or refrain from raising your hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow. Rather it’s because the state of your hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow has not yet been determined, and the one who determines it is not God, but you (since you do, in fact, possess free will).

1. Jesus’ words about Tyre and Sidon was a prediction of what they would have done, if they had observed such miracles.
2. The statement from Isaiah does not affirm that God knows the end from the beginning of all events that will ever take place. Rather it affirms that God knows the end from the beginning of HIS PLANS; that He will surely carry them out.
3. Yes, God knew David’s words before they came out of his mouth, because God can read his mind (and everyone else’s), and knew the thoughts and intentions of his heart.

[Michael]

None of these passages state that God KNOWS (in the absolute sense) what free-will agents will do. If God KNOWS that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M., then you WILL raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M. Or if God KNOWS that you will NOT raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M., then you will NOT raise your hand tomorrow at 3 P.M. Either way there is something you cannot do. Either you cannot raise your hand ad 3 P.M. tomorrow, or you cannot refrain from raising your hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow. So where is your free will?

I don’t see what God’s foreknowledge has to do with freewill, and if you do, would you please answer one question for me?

Are you saying that God did not know ((in the absolute sense) that men would crucify His Son before He came to earth, or that (simply by knowing this in advance) He made them do it?

If you’re not saying one or the other, I don’t see what you’re saying here.

How would His knowing you’re gonna raise your hand at 3 p.m. tomorrow make you do it?

[Paidion]

As to your first question, it was God’s plan and intent that His Son be crucified so that people could be free from the bondage of sin. He may not have known who, specifically, would do it, but arranged events so that someone would do it.

As to your second question, I have not suggested that God’s foreknowledge would CAUSE people to do what He foreknew. What I believe is that God’s foreknowledge of what people will choose is INCONSISTENT with free choice. It doesn’t have to be God. ANYONE’S foreknowledge of what people will choose is inconsistent with free will.

Indeed, I will go further. Sentences about future choices have no present truth value. For example, the sentence, “John will raise his hand tomorrow at 3 P.M.” is neither true nor false! For if it were true, then John would be unable to keep his hand down at that time. And if it were false, then John would be unable to raise his hand at that time. In either case, there would be something which John could not do, and thus John would not have free will! Although the sentence is in the form of a logical statement (which must be either true or false), actually it is a sentence of prediction. Someone is **predicting **that John will raise his hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow. If John himself says that he will raise his hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow, he is expressing an intention.

Since the sentence is neither true nor false, then no one can KNOW (not even God) that it is true (or false). For a person can KNOW that a sentence is true, only if it IS true, or that a sentence is false, only if it IS false.

[Michael]

As to your first question, it was God’s plan and intent that His Son be crucified so that people could be free from the bondage of sin. He may not have known who, specifically, would do it, but arranged events so that someone would do it.

As to your second question, I have not suggested that God’s foreknowledge would CAUSE people to do what He foreknew. What I believe is that God’s foreknowledge of what people will choose is INCONSISTENT with free choice. It doesn’t have to be God. ANYONE’S foreknowledge of what people will choose is inconsistent with free will.

Indeed, I will go further. Sentences about future choices have no present truth value. For example, the sentence, “John will raise his hand tomorrow at 3 P.M.” is neither true nor false! For if it were true, then John would be unable to keep his hand down at that time. And if it were false, then John would be unable to raise his hand at that time. In either case, there would be something which John could not do, and thus John would not have free will! Although the sentence is in the form of a logical statement (which must be either true or false), actually it is a sentence of prediction. Someone is **predicting **that John will raise his hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow. If John himself says that he will raise his hand at 3 P.M. tomorrow, he is expressing an intention.

Since the sentence is neither true nor false, then no one can KNOW (not even God) that it is true (or false). For a person can KNOW that a sentence is true, only if it IS true, or that a sentence is false, only if it IS false.

If I were with you at 3 O’clock today, and I saw you freely choose to raise your hand, that wouldn’t make it any less your choice, would it?

If God can see tomorrow, and sees you freely choose to raise your hand at 3 O’clock, how does that make it any less your choice?

How exactly does that take away your freewill?

[Michael_Thompson]

If God can see tomorrow, and sees you freely choose to raise your hand at 3 O’clock, how does that make it any less your choice?

How exactly does that take away your freewill?

Hi Michael

I think it would help to define what you mean by free will?
If you mean, the ability to choose contrary to reality, then yes it does. If it is a fact that you will raise your hand at that time, then not raising it then would be a contradiction.
That is what the debate is really about, is the future a set of facts that just haven’t been experienced yet by us, or is it open to possibilities that have not been predetermined. In both views, God can be omniscient, he knows everything that can be known.
If you mean some kind of compatibilist view of free will where you raise your hand, because you want to, I see know contradiction there.
I am not sure what view of the future is correct, I lean toward the open view, but there is no way of knowing for sure that I am aware of, so the debate will probably continue for a long time. I don’t seem to get a lot of help from the scriptures , they seem to imply both views in different places, good luck!

[Paidion]

If I were with you at 3 O’clock today, and I saw you freely choose to raise your hand, that wouldn’t make it any less your choice, would it?

No, it wouldn’t. But if you “saw” me raise it BEFORE 3 O’clock, and therefore KNEW that I was going to raise it at 3, it would be impossible for me to keep my hand down. For if I DID keep my hand down, this implies that you DIDN’T know it before hand.

If God can see tomorrow, and sees you freely choose to raise your hand at 3 O’clock, how does that make it any less your choice?

If God could see me raise my hand tomorrow BEFORE 3, presumably that means that He KNOWS I will raise it at 3. Are you saying that when 3 arrives, I have the choice to keep my hand down? If so, then suppose I choose to keep it down. This logically implies that God didn’t know it before hand, after all!

[Michael]

I’m saying that God knew every word you you chose to type here as you were typing it, and the words you typed were still of your choosing (even though God knew the words you were choosing.)

I’m also saying that if you type a reply to this post tonight, tomorrow, or a week from now, God knows every word you will chose to type in that reply, and when you’ll type it, and the words will still be of your choosing.

In no way will they be of God’s word’s simply because He knows what you will freely choose to say.

Also, if you chose not to reply to this post (and say nothing), He knows you’ll do that too, and it’s still your choice.

Foreknowledge has nothing to do with freewill.

[Psalmist]

We are completely free to do whatever we want within the parameters of that which God in His infinite foreknowedge and determination has decreed. Not only does He know all things that are about to happen, all events fit a particular part of His master plan. If even the tiniest fraction of an atom were to move outside of that control, God would cease to be God. If God wouold cease to be God, He wasn’t ever God, to begin with.

Think of concentric circles and it might help you fathom what I am refering to. We are free to do what we please within that circle of existence, but that circle lies within an even greater circle, which is moving and becoming exactly that which God has intended–nothing more and nothing less. (I am not claiming I have some secret knowlege about this; it is simply what I believe, based on what I have read and pondered through the years.) He plans all and knows all; otherwise, He is not God, and He could be (and eventually would be) dethroned. Consider who we are discussing: the Creator of all things, the One who not only comprehends every law of physics but actually sets them in motion, the One who knows the number of hairs on your head and sees every sparrow that falls, the One who is responsible for every molecule ever created and ever to be created–and much, much more.

[redhotmagma]

We are completely free to do whatever we want within the parameters of that which God in His infinite foreknowedge and determination has decreed. Not only does He know all things that are about to happen, all events fit a particular part of His master plan. If even the tiniest fraction of an atom were to move outside of that control, God would cease to be God. If God wouold cease to be God, He wasn’t ever God, to begin with.

Think of concentric circles and it might help you fathom what I am refering to. We are free to do what we please within that circle of existence, but that circle lies within an even greater circle, which is moving and becoming exactly that which God has intended–nothing more and nothing less. (I am not claiming I have some secret knowlege about this; it is simply what I believe, based on what I have read and pondered through the years.) He plans all and knows all; otherwise, He is not God, and He could be (and eventually would be) dethroned. Consider who we are discussing: the Creator of all things, the One who not only comprehends every law of physics but actually sets them in motion, the One who knows the number of hairs on your head and sees every sparrow that falls, the One who is responsible for every molecule ever created and ever to be created–and much, much more.

Great post psalmist. I agree with what you’ve said. I think the problem comes when we try to fit infiniteness into our finite brains. As if the rules of logic in our 4d world apply to an 11+ dimensional being. He’s not bound by time, we can’t even comprehend that.