If what you say is true, it would prove nothing. However, it is not at all certain that it IS true.
Duh, no, it would decisively refute your claim because it would mean that the thief joined Jesus, fully conscious, in Paradise that very day. Paidion will now produce an academic commentary on Luke that puts the comma after âtoday.â Not!
Decisively refute my claim??? Is it your position that if a person uses a phrase in a particular way several times, that he will NEVER use that phrase in any other way? That would HAVE TO be the case if it would âdecisively refute my claim.â
Consider also Matthew 26:34
Jesus said to him, âTruly I tell you, this very night, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.â(NRSV)
Remove the first two commas and the final one and you have:
Jesus said to him, âTruly I tell you this very night, before the cock crows you will deny me three times.â
Or do you think it means âThis very night, you will deny me three timesâ? How could it? Peter didnât deny him in the night, but in the morning just before the cock crowed.
A trumpet call, known as the cockcrow signaled the end of the 3rd and beginning of the 4th watch.
ie 3 a.m.
If Peter denied before the cockcrow, he denied before dawn. Jewish morning starts at dawn.
Paidion, Pilgrimâs critique refutes your claim. Here are 2 points you donât seem to get:
(1) When Bible scholars confront an interpretive or punctuation issue, they allow the pattern of precedent to be the decisive factor.
(2) Your bias is breath-taking. You ignore texts I cited that demonstrate postmortem survival at death and, worse, you make the ludicrous claim that afterlife human speech in the Apocalypse of John canât be used in this debate. You are apparently ignorant of the fact that such postmortem human dialogue is characteristic of Jewish apocalyptic literature.
And why donât you have the decency to start a separate thread on this topic instead of derailing my thread on speaking in tongues. The presence of your ilk on this site has motivated me to phase out my posts here.
WELL EXCUSE ME! I wasnât aware that you OWNED this thread. It was my belief that all threads were public domain.
Maybe if you spoke in tongues you could get rid of me.
Woo Don!
I like your sand.
And whatâs with this âILKâ business - Don is highly respected - and heâs EARNED it over time. WE need more like him.
Letâs keep our yapping to ourselves and make the Forum a welcoming place.
Tongues is the supernatural capacity to speak in an unlearned foreign language, whether as a public prophetic utterance from God to manârequiring interpretation, or as a divinely inspired private prayer from man to Godânot requiring interpretation. (Please reconsider my earlier comments on the baptism in the Spirit, and two kinds of tongues.)
Where there is smoke, there is fire; and the devil wants to sow confusion regarding the Holy Spirit and His Gifts, by promoting misunderstandings, abuses, and counterfeits.
Qaz, I appreciate your interest in this topic of tongues, and I offer these verses to you and to anyone else interested in tongues, for your prayerful consideration:
Matthew 7:9-11
9 âWhich of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!Luke 11:10-13
10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 âWhich of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!âMatthew 18:1-4
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, âWho, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?â
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them.
3 And he said: âTruly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.1 Corinthians 14:5a
I would like every one of you to speak in tonguesâŚ.
Hum!!! I wonder if the non-denominational site, Got Questions - has any input??? I wonder!!!
Randy, Iâd propose you change your handle to Randy_Bot of Got_Questions.
No, Iâm a real person. My views are pretty Orthodox and in accordance with historical creedsâŚ
-
Except perhaps for my theory, that the Zombie ApocalypseâŚis the most probable, end-times tribulation modelâŚBut itâs no more unorthodox or wierd, then some of the other theological viewpoints expressed hereâŚwhich are really statistical outliners, from Orthodox historical creeds.
-
I like N.T. WrightâŚBut not as much, as Eastern Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic theologians.
-
Got Questions has enough Google juice on their own. But they do answer, a wide variety of biblical and theological questions. Which is a good starting point, for the discussions here.
Prayer in tongues does use actual words, but in a language unknown to the speakerâs intellect. I believe every Christian who actually prays in tongues appreciates this.
No, it is not:
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. ESV.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. KJV.
For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless. CEV.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is barren. WNT.
For if I pray in this way, my spirit prays indeed, but my mind has no part in it. GNT.
For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I donât understand what I am saying. NLT.
For if I pray in a foreign language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive. ISV.
When we pray in tongues, the language used is unknown to us, perhaps precisely to prevent our intellect from being an obstacle to Godâs Spirit engaging with our spirit (although we can certainly have, or seek, a focus in prayer and thanksgiving, viz. 1 Cor. 14:15; Eph. 6:18). Stepping out in faith for the initial manifestation may require an extra measure of graceâand humility.
Available to all believers who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, âtongues-speaking as prayerâ is the self-edifying capacity to pray perfect prayers, beyond our natural understanding, through the supernatural aid of the Holy Spirit.
I think youâre right, Hermano. Paul seems very clear on the issue.
When I attended a Calvinist church some years back, tongues was an issue. Roundly criticized by all in the adult SS class - EXCEPT for the one very old and experienced gentleman in the room - admired by all - who said âGod is going to do what God is going to do. I suggest you stop trying to rope Him inâ.
Good and wise words.
1 Like
It is not really a matter of roping God in. The idea that God can do and work via any method only opens up more and more ridiculous ideas that you all would have no problem roping in, if you felt it were not real.
Regarding agape love, and the use and abuse of tongues:
Praying TO God in tongues is about edifying yourself (1 Cor. 14:4); however, prophesying a message FROM God in tongues, with interpretation, is about edifying the church (1 Cor. 14:5). In BOTH cases, the Holy Spirit desires to focus people on GOD, the source of love, whether individually or corporately.
However, any of the spiritual gifts can be abused, because the gifts of the Spirit do not absolutely require love in order to be exercised. For example, a gift of the Spirit can be received and used (or misused) by a brand new Christian, who as yet shows neither maturity nor fruit.
The fruit of the Spirit takes time to develop, through consistent obedience to the leadership of love; and so fruit reveals maturity. But spiritual gifts, in of themselves, certainly do not reveal maturity.
1 Like
Still, I think the basis of our understanding is that God the Father is, first, the creator of heaven and earth, and can do what He pleases. We see through general revelation - via the creation, and special revelation -scripture - that He is also Redeemer. So in principle âspeaking in tonguesâ is not something He could NOT use, strange as it is.
Thatâs an aspect of his power.
But we also are privileged to know not just about his power, but also about His wisdom, his caring, his intelligence etc. When we see people doing things in His name that are way out of character from what God has taught us in nature and in scripture, we do have to be responsible and at least question those things.
When we do question, sure - we need to be careful to understand whether we are simply acting on our bias or distaste or gullibility, and we need a healthy skepticism as well.
We need to be like the Bereans who âreceived the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.â, and many of them believed."
1 Like
Qaz, you seem determined to conclude from your reading of the Scriptures, and from a voluble theologian you have studied on the matter, that the private use tongues to pray to God is âprecludedâ; that only prophetic utterances in tongues from God to the church (which must then be interpreted) are an authentic expression of tongues.
You go so far as to say (emphases mine),
But recall the exhortation of Jesus to the disciples, âFreely you have received; freely give.â So, is it unloving and selfish to first freely receive? Donât you have to first yourself receive, in order to then have something to give to others?
Regarding the appropriateness of âfirst things first,â when Martha got mad at her sister Mary for sitting at the Lordâs feet to listen to himâinstead of helping her in the kitchen, Jesus did not confront Mary for not being âothers-oriented.â Rather, it was Martha he confronted: âMary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.â
Similarly, you will find that first being edified through private prayer in tongues will then facilitate your selfless use of other gifts in the assembly to edify others.
Again, you boldly assert (emphases mine),
Wow! So I guess Paul was just making a little joke when he indicated hereâ
1 Cor. 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
âthat he himself privately spoke in tongues outside of church more than all the others.
And later in the following quote (emphases mine), you now contradict your own earlier view that private prayer to God in tongues is not authentic; that only public prophecy from God through tongues at church (with interpretation) is authentic:
So which is it? Private prayer in tongues is âpointless false ecstatic gibberish carried over from pagan mystery religionsâ; and prophetic tongues (with interpretation) is the only valid expression? Or not?
I would suggest your confusion on this topic comes from not yet having humbled yourself to seek and receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit; and thus not having ever spoken in tongues yourself, either in private prayer to God, or prophetically (with the need for interpretation) in a public Christian setting. (But I am glad you are interested in tongues.)
Not fair.
1 Like