The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment


#101

P.S. This is Bob responding to Holly Tree. Well, the problem of evil and God…will never be solved logically, on a theological and philosophical level…that all would agree with.

I’m now a prospect for the Eastern Orthodox - OCA branch. And I’m also in the RCIA program, of the RC church. BOTH have been emphasizing, the love and mercy of God - in Christ.


#102

I don’t see how this follows. Those in heaven are being protected from the worst evil imaginable. They will delight in the justice of God. Not the evil and suffering in and of itself. The torture and murder of Christ was the worst evil imaginable and therefore deserves the worst punishment imaginable. They were judged in 70 A.D. One of God’s justifiable reasons for hell is the protection of His children from the worst evil imaginable (Satan, his angels, and the Jews who committed blasphemy against the Spirit and handed Jesus over to be tortured and crucified). There are infinitely many more justifiable reasons for hell seeing that logical explanations are infinite in number and God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. Again, God and the saints don’t delight in the death of the wicked in and of itself but the glories of God’s justice. There’s nothing abnormal about being happy under God’s protective wings from the worst evil imaginable.


#103

Better yet would be God in His love and sovereignty to actually save all people, and eliminate evil and death and suffering altogether and gladden the entire universe. But come to think of it, that’s what this forum is all about. And is also what scripture teaches imho.


#104

Dave,

We wouldn’t have a proper knowledge of God if that were the case. Perfect love and perfect justice protect against evil. In the afterlife there is perfect love and perfect justice. Seeing that God is the beginning and the end (not bound by cosmic time) he’s always all glorious. Just as the glory of the cross was there at the foundation of the world. He was slain from the foundation of the world.


#105

I think the thrust of scripture is that Christ’s work will eventuate in the elimination of evil, so there will be nothing to be protected from. The whole creation will be delivered from its bondage.
God is maximally good, I believe, maximally glorious and maximally able to do what He has promised. In the end, nothing will be lost; everything will be reconciled, and the glory of God will fill every creature and every part of the universe.


#106

He eliminates evil from the new creation (New heavens and earth and New Jerusalem). The lake of fire is outside all that. The gates of the city are open for those in purgatory.


#107

Michael, I’ve yet to be convinced of the whole LOF scenario, so I’m not going to comment on it.
I am convinced that God will do the absolute most wonderful thing we can think of. And will not concede victory to evil or death.
Going to bed, see you tomorrow!


#108

Okay Dave :smiley:


#109

One more thing Dave. While scripture speaks of God’s justice being retributive it’s also restorative. But it also speaks about how people can resist and refuse discipline. Those with evil hardened hearts are corrected by God but they reject His discipline.

Those who disregard discipline despise themselves, but the one who heeds correction gains understanding ~~ Proverbs 15:32

Poverty and shame come to him who ignores discipline, but whoever heeds correction will be honored. ~~ Proverbs 13:18

A fool rejects his father’s discipline, but whoever heeds correction is prudent. ~~ Proverbs 15:5

Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled,
the oppressing city!

She listens to no voice;
she accepts no correction.

She does not trust in the Lord;
she does not draw near to her God.~~ Zephaniah 3


#110

Being protected from the worst evil imaginable is no guarantee that eternal bliss exists in heaven. How is that protection going to create eternal bliss in heaven-dwellers if not all their loved ones are also in heaven, protected from that same worst imaginable evil? Again, remember that loved ones, according to Jesus, should include all others.

Do you think holocaust survivors reacted with uninterrupted bliss for the rest of their lives after they were rescued from the evil of the concentration camps? Do you think memories of those not saved from the camps allowed bliss for any extended period of time in the survivors?

That anyone could be eternally happy knowing loved ones are not is the height of self-centeredness, precisely the kind of behavior Jesus stood against.


#111

I don’t think it’s self centeredness at all. Even if it is it’s a healthy self-centeredness not an unhealthy self-centeredness. If my dad was the most evil person imaginal in hell an I was being protected from his abuse I would feel relief and joy because of Gods love. Protecting children from their loved one’s evil abuse is normal. One feels love when they are protected from evil abuse. Jesus taught that love protects against evil. This includes evil from loved ones.


#112

It’s your view of love that is unhealthy.


#113

Undoubtedly one feels relief if one is protected from an evil. Is that joy? I don’t know that it is. Just knowing that eternal hell exists and causes others to suffer would seem to detract from joy.


#114

Just using, as a given, the admonitions of Jesus about loving your neighbors as well as your enemies.


#115

It’s my belief that everyone will be reconciled to those who have hurt them, and to those whom they have hurt. Peace will reign throughout the universe; there will be no more pain for anyone. Is this not a better vision than billions of people in ECT? Isn’t justice more glorified by God’s victorious love than by the grotesque caricature of ‘justice’ exemplified by torture forever? There is NO comparison between the two visions. And one of them is actually Biblical.


#116

Just using, as a given, the admonitions of Jesus about loving your neighbors as well as your enemies.

We love our enemies by trusting God and forgiving them. Not bearing a grudge. God says, Vengeance is Mine I will Repay. When I trust God I can forgive and not hold a grudge. This doesn’t mean that I have to go around an evil and abusive person. Love protects against evil abuse. Theres a happiness in being under God’s protective wings. Your view of love is unhealthy.


#117

Yes, and goes on to even greater Love by healing and reconciling the abuser. Thank God for that.


#118

Sure there’s happiness in being under God’s protective wings. But there’s unhappiness in knowing that others are not. That’s the essential point you continue to miss.


#119

Dave,

I believe God’s justice is restorative as well as retributive. While scripture speaks of God’s justice being retributive it’s also restorative. But it also speaks about how people can resist and refuse discipline. Those with evil hardened hearts are corrected by God but they reject His discipline.

Those who disregard discipline despise themselves, but the one who heeds correction gains understanding ~~ Proverbs 15:32

Poverty and shame come to him who ignores discipline, but whoever heeds correction will be honored. ~~ Proverbs 13:18

A fool rejects his father’s discipline, but whoever heeds correction is prudent. ~~ Proverbs 15:5

Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled,
the oppressing city!

She listens to no voice;
she accepts no correction.

She does not trust in the Lord;
she does not draw near to her God.~~ Zephaniah 3


#120

People in heaven don’t delight in the suffering in and of itself. They delight in God’s love and justice as they are protected under His wings from evil in hell. Perfect love and perfect justice protect. Therefore we must conclude that the torment that those in hell experience is calibrated just right to restrain those in hell with evil hearts from committing horrendous evil. These are a few of God’s justifiable reasons for hell. There are infinitely many more seeing that logical explanations are infinite in number and God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. As long as God has morally sufficient and justifiable reasons for hell it’s not unjust for it to exist. God and the saints delight in the justice. You have an unbiblical concept of love, justice, and happiness. The happiness of the creature consists in the knowledge of God. If the knowledge of God is imperfect so is the happiness of the creature.