Humility is the fear of the LORD; its wages are riches and honor and life. - Prov. 22:4
(eternal riches, honor, and life)
To protect your view that God’s love and seeking the best for the lost is very short-lived and falls short, I find you make stuff up. These verses don’t even mention that fire is “to protect” the city. That appears to be sheer eisegesis in order to preserve man’s traditions, focused on desires for retributive punishment and our self-centered fears. Indeed, what appears clear is that the gates of the (protected) city are never even shut (21:25), and that the Spirt and the Bride invite the parched to walk right in as soon as they “wash their robes” (22:14,17).
God is not small, and the way God secures a reconciled and safe creation is not that he is reduced to dividing his universe into quarters that are not reconciled, but remain in rebellion. Rather it is this glorious picture of using fire as well as the water of life to purify us so that we become those who wash our robes and “have the right to go through the gates into the city”!" Sola deo Gloria.
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It says blessed are those who wash their robes and enter the city. Therefore, this isn’t everybody. The gates of the city are open for those in purgatory. Every creature in heaven, and earth, and under the earth (purgatory) bow the knee.
[quote=“hollytree, post:131, topic:13860, full:true”]
It says blessed are those who wash their robes and enter the city. Therefore, this isn’t everybody. [/quote]
That’s just a non-sequitur seeking to limit God’s power. Stating conditions doesn’t determine who can be brought to meet them. Those who believe in God’s victory have never denied faith and purity are conditions, but they believe God is able to produce what is needed. The reformers agreed, Sola deo Gloria.
God’s power includes His wrath. You have an unhealthy view of love. For the Bible tells us that perfect love and perfect justice protect from evil.
If assertions counted, I’d declare that your denial that God’s steadfast love seeks what is best for the lost, and endures forever, means that you completely reject the essence of love, healthy or unhealthy.
I accept love and the Bible when it says perfect love protects from evil. Love and justice go together. They protect children from abusive evil.
No one denies that. That doesn’t require denying God’s promises of what his love and justice will victoriously do.
God’s promise is to restore all creation. The New Heavens and Earth and the New Jerusalem (all things). The lake of fire isn’t part of that:
For as the new heavens and the new earth , which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh .
Those outside the gates are no part of “all humanity” or the “all things” (New Heaven and earth) God does indeed have mercy on all humankind. But the zombies have committed the eternal sin by rejecting Christ with hardened hearts. Those outside the gates of the new Jerusalem aren’t part of “all mankind” or all things (heaven and earth). They must be grafted in.
I want to share the Catholic reflection today…from RC priest Richard Rohr, of the Center for Contemplation and Action:
Our Priority Is Love
Thursday, January 3, 2019
Brian McLaren, a dear friend and fellow public theologian, shares my concern and hope that Christianity can evolve. In his book The Great Spiritual Migration , he writes:
For centuries, Christianity has been presented as a system of beliefs. That system of beliefs has supported a wide range of unintended consequences, from colonialism to environmental destruction, subordination of women to stigmatization of LGBT people, anti-Semitism to Islamophobia, clergy pedophilia to white privilege. What would it mean for Christians to rediscover their faith not as a problematic system of beliefs, but as a just and generous way of life, rooted in contemplation and expressed in compassion, that makes amends for its mistakes and is dedicated to beloved community for all? Could Christians migrate from defining their faith as a system of beliefs to expressing it as a loving way of life? . . .
For centuries, Christians have presented God as a Supreme Being who showers blessings upon insiders who share certain beliefs and proper institutional affiliation, but who punishes outsiders with eternal conscious torment. Yet Jesus revealed God as one who “eats with sinners,” welcomes outsiders in, and forgives even while being rejected, tortured, and killed. Jesus associated God more with gracious parental tenderness than strict authoritarian toughness. He preached that God was to be found in self-giving service rather than self-asserting domination. What would it mean for Christians to let Jesus and his message lead them to a new vision of God? What would it mean for Christians to understand, experience, and embody God as the loving, healing, reconciling Spirit in whom all creatures live, move, and have their being?
For centuries, Christianity has presented itself as an “organized religion”—a change-averse institution or set of institutions that protects and promotes a timeless system of beliefs that were handed down fully formed in the past. Yet Christianity’s actual history is a story of change and adaptation. We Christians have repeatedly adapted our message, methods, and mission to the contours of our time [for example, the Second Vatican Council within Catholicism]. What might happen if we understood the core Christian ethos as creative, constructive, and forward-leaning—as an “organizing religion” that challenges all institutions (including its own) [as Jesus did] to learn, grow, and mature toward a deepening, enduring vision of reconciliation with God, self, neighbor, enemy, and creation? . . .
If such a migration is possible, how would we describe that way of life toward which we are moving?
If we are to be truly Christian, it makes sense to turn to Jesus for the answer.
Of the many radical things said and done by Jesus, his unflinching emphasis on love was the most radical of all. Love was the greatest commandment . . . his prime directive—love for God, for self, for neighbor, for stranger, for alien, for outsider, for outcast, and even for enemy, as he himself modeled. The new commandment of love [John 13:34] meant that neither beliefs nor words, neither taboos, systems, structures nor the labels that enshrined them mattered most. Love decentered everything else; love relativized everything else; love took priority over everything else—everything.
Hollytree, do you not see that arguing an argument is incorrect by baldly asserting a personal contrary interpretation, without offering any support, doesn’t persuade anyone? I’m sorry, your peculiar claim that those described as evil and lost are not humans, but zombies, is not something I know how to take seriously. But the fella above may find it a scintillating reading.
This is Bob responding to Holly Tree!
True. Especially if we deal, with the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
I will use what Thomas Aquinas used and say reprobate. I used zombies because I thought Randy would like it. Nonetheless the scripture I provided stands firm.
You provided NO Scripture that says that evil or lost people, or nations in the lake of fire, are not humans, or that they are zombies or “reprobates.” I find reading man’s ‘reprobate’ traditions in like that to be very eisegetic.
Lets look at the scripture one more time with the parallel scripture in Revelation:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Heaven and earth is a merism that means “ALL THINGS” - they are "MADE NEW"
I also saw the holy city—the New Jerusalem—coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I also heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
“Behold, the dwelling of God is among men,
and He shall tabernacle among them.
They shall be His people,
and God Himself shall be among them
and be their God.
Those in the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” have God as their God. And they are His people
He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and death shall be no more.
Nor shall there be mourning or crying or pain any longer,
for the former things have passed away.”
There’s no more pain death and suffering for those in the **“ALL THINGS MADE NEW”. ** Death is destroyed inside the gates
And the One seated upon the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new!”
All things are being made new in the new heaven and earth - "ALL THINGS"
Then He said, “Write, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Then He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will freely give from the spring of the water of life. The one who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Those in the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” are God’s children -
for the cowardly and faithless and detestable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars—their lot is in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Without a doubt this separates those in the lake of fire from the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” They are not a part of it. Now lets look at the parallel.
For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me”—it is a declaration of Adonai—“so your descendants and your name will endure.”
Same context of “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” = NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH
“And it will come to pass,
that from one New Moon to another,
and from one Shabbat to another,
all mankind will come to bow down before Me,”
says Adonai.
Clearly “ALL MANDKIND” will worship God in the "ALL THINGS MADE NEW"
“As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die, and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66
Those in the lake of fire are excluded from the “ALL THINGS NEW” and "ALL MANKIND"
Those in the lake of fire must be grafted in to be a part of ALL MANKIND
AMEN, they MUST be grafted in!!!
As Revelation 5:13 puts it, “Every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth will say, 'To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power, forever!”
And the work of the Spirit that so leads sinners to deeply praise and confess Christ indeed requires being grafted in. Colossians 1’s promise that everyone God created will be reconciled by His blood also requires that they be grafted in! Can we be reconciled without being grafted in? Of course, Romans great climax that God will have mercy on all argues expressly for God’s power and love to graft in those hardened. Sola deo Gloria.
I’m gratefully excited that we found a basic that we both agree on!!!
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This “ALL THINGS” can be understood to be a picture of the NEW COVENANT where all covenantal realities are MADE NEW in Christ… IOW, this new heavens and new earth ARE the NEW CREATION in Christ — this matches Paul’s summary here…
2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, ALL THINGS have become new. Cf. Gal 6:15
And this is then further confirmed here…
Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
That “ready to vanish away” IS what John in finality records in Revelation, i.e., Paul’s NEW CREATION — this is all covenant reality. It is always much safer to stick with the language of Scripture that makes these truths CLEAR than run off into endless speculation.
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Bob,
Those scriptures you quoted don’t prove universalism. Under the earth is a reference to purgatory. It’s those in purgatory who are grafted into “all humanity”. Thus God does have mercy on “all humanity”. All are reconciled in heaven, earth, and under the earth as God creates a new heaven and earth. All blasphemies and all manner of sins are forgiven in the past age and the present age except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This is the eternal sin. This is a sin unique to the Jews who knew Christ and hated Him and handed Him over to be tortured and crucified. What makes this sin so serious is Christ being wholly other than finite moral agents in moral virtue - for example, of His being the locus and source of all moral value and obligation, or else in terms of a universally applicable moral principle- for example, the more loving Christ’s overtures the more reprehensible it is to reject Him. The torture and murder of Christ was the worst evil imaginable and therefore deserves the worst punishment imaginable. Hence, torment day and night forever and ever as the Bible teaches. Satan, his angels and all Jewish Christ haters were judged in 70 A.D during the Days of Vengeance when Israel was judged and the temple destroyed.
Yes. I loved it. Some are even coming to lunch today! 
[quote=“hollytree, post:147, topic:13860, full:true”]
“Bob, Those scriptures you quoted don’t prove universalism. (Under the earth is a reference to purgatory.)”
Who claimed that? I didn’t mention (or prove) ‘universalism.’ I said texts affirmed your view that the “all men” God promises to reconcile & justify must indeed be “grafted in.” In worrying Scriptures sound universal, you don’t engage what I said (OR support your theory that God regards some made in his image as “not human”).
Sure I do cite Scripture. Your whole response is full of assertions with NO Scripture support. And I’m lost on how you could suggest Roman’s 11’s mercy for all, or Colossians 1’s citation that all whom God created are reconciled by Christ’s blood says anything about limiting this to a supposed “purgatory,” or even where you elsewhere see a place under the earth that is declared to be a ‘purgatory.’ I tried to affirm common Biblical ground with you, but most of your theories appear fanciful and unsupported.
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