I quoted scripture and provided the alternative reading of your universalist passages. Your universalism fails at persuasion and is Biblically unfounded. No scripture can be used to support your universalism. Moreover, it was studied by experts in the early church and found to be without basis. So much so that it was condemned. It’s your view that is fanciful. What you are doing here is what is called “psychological projection”
The texts I repeated that you apparently see as “universalist passages” were Romans 11 and Colossians 1. What IS your “alternative reading” of these great chapters?
I did note that you asserted that a place you called purgatory is “under the earth,” and that God sees some created in his image as “not humans,” and asked WHAT "quoted scripture" declares that? I don’t see it.
Typically understood, “under the earth” is simply a euphemism for the ‘the grave’ — thus those “under the earth” speaks of those who have DIED… and doesn’t make any claims or assumptions beyond that; other than where it might be said that the duly departed praise or confess Him, etc.
Sorry Bob I’m not going to repeat the scriptures that show “all things” and “all humanity” doesn’t include the lake of fire. But it does say in Romans:
there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Those in Christ are being restored to that likeness and image. In Christ is the new humanity. It’s a union. As it tells us in Eph.
and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Davo,
The Rich man was being tormented in Hades. This is purgatory because the rich man still had love in his heart as he begged for mercy and still had love for his brothers. He demonstrated love for his brothers by begging Abraham to warn his five brothers of his place of torment (vv 28-27) Those in hell don’t beg for mercy of have love for their brothers. Their hearts are hardened as they hate and blaspheme God as it tells us in Rev:
Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
This places the Rich man in purgatory and therefore purgatory is in the heart of the earth. The passage about the Rich man was interpreted to be a reference to purgatory in the “Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity” and in the writings of Tertullian. Now that hades has been thrown into the lake of fire I conclude that purgatory is located under the earth within hell like C.S. Lewis, Augustine, and Aquinas.
Matthew 12:31 31And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
The plain meaning of Jesus words is that there is forgiveness both in the past age and the present age. Those in the “age to come” are said to be “under His feet” (Eph. 1:22) and those “under the earth” are said to bend the knee at the name of Jesus. This means that those in Matthew 12:32 who are forgiven in the “age to come” are the same people who are “under the earth” in purgatory. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the eternal unforgivable sin. It is unforgivable because they don’t want forgiveness.
It was NOT purgatory… had such a thing existed Jesus would have said so; he didn’t! Lk 16 is NOT a factual description of the afterlife… it is a STORY, a parable — a belief common to the day that Jesus uses and to taps into to make his own point to his audience.
‘Hades’ <ἅδης> hadēs was ‘the grave’ and thus a euphemism for DEATH, and in particular its permanence — thus there was NO other or further transaction, i.e., movement beyond it — hence Jesus’ mention of the great gulf etc. In short Jesus was saying to Israel… sort yourselves out now and believe MY words, because if you don’t then when the end hits it WILL BE TOO LATE.
Interpreted LEGEND for some for sure… BUT NOT Scripture!
Think I may have found the way in…
Well, your wrong Davo. I gave the texts from scripture and showed it. Your view doesn’t go along with the experts on the Bible in the early church or now. Jesus did say it in the texts I provided. Just because your Panelism is unbiblical doesn’t mean you can change the word of God or the truth taught in the Church for years.
That is the point, the view of the experts on the Bible may well have a few flaws…
You really need to re think the way you look at scripture,
Good luck and God’s speed to you.
Actually, my admonition was quite wrong… I would instead say that I would encourage you to re think the way you look at scripture.
But I will say good luck and God’s speed.
The only flaws is Davos view of scripture. A parable may be a story but it tells truth about reality. Just because it’s a story doesn’t mean it has no truth. Jesus clearly spoke of purgatory just as he spoke of Gehenna. The earthly Gehenna is still outside the old earthly Jerusalem. The lake of fire is outside the new eternal Jerusalem. Two different contexts. It would be wise not to conflate the two just because you fear hell.
I can provide absolutely ALL the texts where Jesus CLEARLY declared the place ‘Gehenna’… you are welcome to supply absolutely ALL the texts where Jesus CLEARLY declared the place ‘purgatory’… given the word fell NOWHERE from His lips good luck with the Greek or Aramaic!
You’re wrong davo. Jesus taught purgatory but never used the word Just as the word trinity is never used, omnibenevolence is never used, omniscience is never used or a whole host of other doctrines that are taught in the Bible. The Greek word Gehenna refers to the earthly place outside the earthly Jerusalem. It’s still there today. The Greek “Lake of Fire” is in the context of the New eternal Jerusalem. Two different places.
Well let’s see then… what word would you like to ascribe to Jesus as him supposedly teaching your ‘purgatory’?
I already gave some scriptures. There’s many others. A parable is a story but it teaches truth.
I repeat… what word?
How could anyone miss that?
When someone asks for Scripture, that’s an astute move!
Yep, that’s really my response. I doubted you’d cite the Scriptures I requested, or answer the critiques of your logic. And I think you were wise to refuse to repeat Scripture, or to engage those who argued that your hermeneutic is far-fetched. It’s a smart move.
Well, it’s there for you to see Bob. Is this really your response to the evidence I provided?
Davo,
I’m sticking with the scripture:
Do not answer a fool according to his folly , lest you also be like him.
Great… which ONE, just the ONE, which ONE contains this magical WORD that by it Jesus supposedly uses as code for purgatory — I’m waiting
I gave the scriptures.
Silence… WE ALL KNOW YOU CAN’T!!