The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment


#141

I will use what Thomas Aquinas used and say reprobate. I used zombies because I thought Randy would like it. Nonetheless the scripture I provided stands firm.


#142

You provided NO Scripture that says that evil or lost people, or nations in the lake of fire, are not humans, or that they are zombies or “reprobates.” I find reading man’s ‘reprobate’ traditions in like that to be very eisegetic.


#143

Lets look at the scripture one more time with the parallel scripture in Revelation:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Heaven and earth is a merism that means “ALL THINGS” - they are "MADE NEW"

I also saw the holy city—the New Jerusalem—coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I also heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,

“Behold, the dwelling of God is among men,
and He shall tabernacle among them.
They shall be His people,
and God Himself shall be among them
and be their God.

Those in the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” have God as their God. And they are His people

He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and death shall be no more.
Nor shall there be mourning or crying or pain any longer,
for the former things have passed away.”

There’s no more pain death and suffering for those in the **“ALL THINGS MADE NEW”. ** Death is destroyed inside the gates

And the One seated upon the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new!”

All things are being made new in the new heaven and earth - "ALL THINGS"

Then He said, “Write, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Then He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will freely give from the spring of the water of life. The one who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Those in the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” are God’s children -

for the cowardly and faithless and detestable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars—their lot is in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Without a doubt this separates those in the lake of fire from the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” They are not a part of it. Now lets look at the parallel.

For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me”—it is a declaration of Adonai—“so your descendants and your name will endure.”

Same context of “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” = NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH

“And it will come to pass,
that from one New Moon to another,
and from one Shabbat to another,
all mankind will come to bow down before Me,”
says Adonai.

Clearly “ALL MANDKIND” will worship God in the "ALL THINGS MADE NEW"

“As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die, and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

Those in the lake of fire are excluded from the “ALL THINGS NEW” and "ALL MANKIND"

Those in the lake of fire must be grafted in to be a part of ALL MANKIND


#144

Hollytree did you even read the Walls book that “dismantles” Talbott?


#145

AMEN, they MUST be grafted in!!!

As Revelation 5:13 puts it, “Every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth will say, 'To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power, forever!”

And the work of the Spirit that so leads sinners to deeply praise and confess Christ indeed requires being grafted in. Colossians 1’s promise that everyone God created will be reconciled by His blood also requires that they be grafted in! Can we be reconciled without being grafted in? Of course, Romans great climax that God will have mercy on all argues expressly for God’s power and love to graft in those hardened. Sola deo Gloria.

I’m gratefully excited that we found a basic that we both agree on!!!


#146

This “ALL THINGS” can be understood to be a picture of the NEW COVENANT where all covenantal realities are MADE NEW in Christ… IOW, this new heavens and new earth ARE the NEW CREATION in Christ — this matches Paul’s summary here…

2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, ALL THINGS have become new. Cf. Gal 6:15

And this is then further confirmed here…

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

That “ready to vanish away” IS what John in finality records in Revelation, i.e., Paul’s NEW CREATION — this is all covenant reality. It is always much safer to stick with the language of Scripture that makes these truths CLEAR than run off into endless speculation.


#147

Bob,

Those scriptures you quoted don’t prove universalism. Under the earth is a reference to purgatory. It’s those in purgatory who are grafted into “all humanity”. Thus God does have mercy on “all humanity”. All are reconciled in heaven, earth, and under the earth as God creates a new heaven and earth. All blasphemies and all manner of sins are forgiven in the past age and the present age except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This is the eternal sin. This is a sin unique to the Jews who knew Christ and hated Him and handed Him over to be tortured and crucified. What makes this sin so serious is Christ being wholly other than finite moral agents in moral virtue - for example, of His being the locus and source of all moral value and obligation, or else in terms of a universally applicable moral principle- for example, the more loving Christ’s overtures the more reprehensible it is to reject Him. The torture and murder of Christ was the worst evil imaginable and therefore deserves the worst punishment imaginable. Hence, torment day and night forever and ever as the Bible teaches. Satan, his angels and all Jewish Christ haters were judged in 70 A.D during the Days of Vengeance when Israel was judged and the temple destroyed.


#148

Firstly, it strikes me that the using terms like “Jewish Christ haters” can easily descend into antisemitism.

Secondly, imagining and enacting horrific punishments is so very human. Why would God act exactly like a human?


#149

Yes. I loved it. Some are even coming to lunch today! :wink:


#150

[quote=“hollytree, post:147, topic:13860, full:true”]
“Bob, Those scriptures you quoted don’t prove universalism. (Under the earth is a reference to purgatory.)”

Who claimed that? I didn’t mention (or prove) ‘universalism.’ I said texts affirmed your view that the “all men” God promises to reconcile & justify must indeed be “grafted in.” In worrying Scriptures sound universal, you don’t engage what I said (OR support your theory that God regards some made in his image as “not human”).

Sure I do cite Scripture. Your whole response is full of assertions with NO Scripture support. And I’m lost on how you could suggest Roman’s 11’s mercy for all, or Colossians 1’s citation that all whom God created are reconciled by Christ’s blood says anything about limiting this to a supposed “purgatory,” or even where you elsewhere see a place under the earth that is declared to be a ‘purgatory.’ I tried to affirm common Biblical ground with you, but most of your theories appear fanciful and unsupported.


#151

I quoted scripture and provided the alternative reading of your universalist passages. Your universalism fails at persuasion and is Biblically unfounded. No scripture can be used to support your universalism. Moreover, it was studied by experts in the early church and found to be without basis. So much so that it was condemned. It’s your view that is fanciful. What you are doing here is what is called “psychological projection”


#152

The texts I repeated that you apparently see as “universalist passages” were Romans 11 and Colossians 1. What IS your “alternative reading” of these great chapters?

I did note that you asserted that a place you called purgatory is “under the earth,” and that God sees some created in his image as “not humans,” and asked WHAT "quoted scripture" declares that? I don’t see it.


#153

Typically understood, “under the earth” is simply a euphemism for the ‘the grave’ — thus those “under the earth” speaks of those who have DIED… and doesn’t make any claims or assumptions beyond that; other than where it might be said that the duly departed praise or confess Him, etc.


#154

Sorry Bob I’m not going to repeat the scriptures that show “all things” and “all humanity” doesn’t include the lake of fire. But it does say in Romans:

there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Those in Christ are being restored to that likeness and image. In Christ is the new humanity. It’s a union. As it tells us in Eph.

and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Davo,

The Rich man was being tormented in Hades. This is purgatory because the rich man still had love in his heart as he begged for mercy and still had love for his brothers. He demonstrated love for his brothers by begging Abraham to warn his five brothers of his place of torment (vv 28-27) Those in hell don’t beg for mercy of have love for their brothers. Their hearts are hardened as they hate and blaspheme God as it tells us in Rev:

Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

This places the Rich man in purgatory and therefore purgatory is in the heart of the earth. The passage about the Rich man was interpreted to be a reference to purgatory in the “Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity” and in the writings of Tertullian. Now that hades has been thrown into the lake of fire I conclude that purgatory is located under the earth within hell like C.S. Lewis, Augustine, and Aquinas.

Matthew 12:31 31And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The plain meaning of Jesus words is that there is forgiveness both in the past age and the present age. Those in the “age to come” are said to be “under His feet” (Eph. 1:22) and those “under the earth” are said to bend the knee at the name of Jesus. This means that those in Matthew 12:32 who are forgiven in the “age to come” are the same people who are “under the earth” in purgatory. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the eternal unforgivable sin. It is unforgivable because they don’t want forgiveness.


#156

It was NOT purgatory… had such a thing existed Jesus would have said so; he didn’t! Lk 16 is NOT a factual description of the afterlife… it is a STORY, a parable — a belief common to the day that Jesus uses and to taps into to make his own point to his audience.

‘Hades’ <ἅδης> hadēs was ‘the grave’ and thus a euphemism for DEATH, and in particular its permanence — thus there was NO other or further transaction, i.e., movement beyond it — hence Jesus’ mention of the great gulf etc. In short Jesus was saying to Israel… sort yourselves out now and believe MY words, because if you don’t then when the end hits it WILL BE TOO LATE.

Interpreted LEGEND for some for sure… BUT NOT Scripture!

Think I may have found the way in…


#157

Well, your wrong Davo. I gave the texts from scripture and showed it. Your view doesn’t go along with the experts on the Bible in the early church or now. Jesus did say it in the texts I provided. Just because your Panelism is unbiblical doesn’t mean you can change the word of God or the truth taught in the Church for years.


#158

That is the point, the view of the experts on the Bible may well have a few flaws…

You really need to re think the way you look at scripture,

Good luck and God’s speed to you.

Actually, my admonition was quite wrong… I would instead say that I would encourage you to re think the way you look at scripture.

But I will say good luck and God’s speed.:grinning:


#159

The only flaws is Davos view of scripture. A parable may be a story but it tells truth about reality. Just because it’s a story doesn’t mean it has no truth. Jesus clearly spoke of purgatory just as he spoke of Gehenna. The earthly Gehenna is still outside the old earthly Jerusalem. The lake of fire is outside the new eternal Jerusalem. Two different contexts. It would be wise not to conflate the two just because you fear hell.


#160

I can provide absolutely ALL the texts where Jesus CLEARLY declared the place ‘Gehenna’… you are welcome to supply absolutely ALL the texts where Jesus CLEARLY declared the place ‘purgatory’… given the word fell NOWHERE from His lips good luck with the Greek or Aramaic!


#161

You’re wrong davo. Jesus taught purgatory but never used the word Just as the word trinity is never used, omnibenevolence is never used, omniscience is never used or a whole host of other doctrines that are taught in the Bible. The Greek word Gehenna refers to the earthly place outside the earthly Jerusalem. It’s still there today. The Greek “Lake of Fire” is in the context of the New eternal Jerusalem. Two different places.