The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Hell Of C.S. Lewis

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

People throughout the years have given some pretty crazy views on hell. Although eternal punishment is terrible I don’t think it’s as terrible as a lot of what people have said. I think it’s like what C.S. Lewis describes:

This is absolutely correct. Because those in hell are separated from God’s grace (common and saving) they reject God with willful and wanton rebellion. They don’t want God as they remain evil forever. God simply hands them over and lets them go their own way. The longer one remains in hell the more evil they become and thus the more just God’s punishment of them is. Hell isn’t a cruel and unusual torture chamber. It’s the just punishment of evil. God is protecting His children from the abuse of evil by keeping it out of the new creation. It’s like what Timothy Keller describes in his book “The Reason for God”

#2

Yeah what could be more fair than allowing people to continue in increasing unfairness for all eternity? Oh…

#3

They stay evil forever and are punished forever. Nothing unjust about it. Like the prisoner who continues to sin in prison continually gets more time. No one wants God in hell.

#4

Cole, it’s not at all just (and this is especially the case with Keller’s view, being a Calvinist, and, to a lesser extent, Lewis’ view) to ‘allow’ people to continue in injustice for all eternity, becoming progressively more unjust. That’s what’s wrong with Keller’s statement - how can allowing people to continue and get ever-increasingly worse in their own injustice possibly side with the concept of justice itself? Keller genuinely thinks God wanted sin and injustice/unfairness to be the final result of at least some of His creation. This despite Him apparently hating those very things.

Obviously not if it ‘gives Him glory’, however that works.

#5

If people stay evil forever then there is nothing unjust in God punishing them forever. It’s like the prisoner who is locked up and continues to commit crimes in prison and gets more time. God shows His justice in part by keeping them out of the new creation thereby demonstrating His tender love for His children. This is how He is glorified.

#6

The problem I have with that is that it conflicts with the scriptures, which teach that all will be reconciled.

It also conflicts with reason, because it portrays God as unable or unwilling to rescue the lost(apollumi) who are ruining themselves, and an eternity of mental anguish for millions of billions as an acceptable conclusion to the plan of God, which is also pretty harsh(and imo, sick)

Yet Paul says, in Colossians 1

19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
**
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you** in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

So, we all were once as they, raging and railing and arrogant and fading away into outer darkness(BTW, I love The Great Divorce), "yet He has now reconciled you…"

He has now reconciled you.

He has done it and we are in it, but NOT OF OUR OWN DOING. So if it is not of us, then God is the one who has done it, and if He has done it for us, and NOT DONE IT BECAUSE OF ANY MERIT OF OURS, then He will do it for all, and not by any merit of theirs.

And **you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked **according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 **so that in the ages to come **He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are His workmanship, and our work, to be completed in the ages to come, is reconciling all things to God, participating as the children of God in “the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prohets since the foundation of the world”(Ac 3:19) and the “gathering together of all things into one in Christ”(Eph 1:9-11)- a dispensation(plan/administration) suitable to(to be implemented over) the fulness of times(until the ages are complete)

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now

Eph 1:9-12 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The idea that any kind of torment, be it mental or emotional, self inflicted or whatever -ETERNALLY, could be categorized as “not so bad” is, imo, superficial reasoning. Just ask a schizophrenic what 6 months on the edge of a delusional breakdown is like.

The result of your reasoning is that you saved yourself by a decision you made, therefore you deserve eternal life, and they rejected that choice, so they desrve eternal torment. But the scripture say you were saved BY GRACE through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELF- it was a GIFT from God.

The scripture says God saved you for a purpose, and that purpose will not be complete until all are gathered in, reconciled, restored.

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#7

Eaglesway,

I won’t argue with your interpretation of the scripture as the church has shown it to be heretical for over 2000 years. Moreover, if people continue to sin then God must punish. The problem is that they continually sin forever and therefore get punished forever. People in hell are evil.

#8

The more I distance myself from this absurd theology the more ridiculous and absurd it is. I find the notion a disgusting and evil thing to attribute such callousness towards his creatures. Does something being a lesser allow for cruel behavior from the greater? I don’t let my dog run free in traffic to get hit and killed by a car. Nor do I shoot my cat because it puked on the carpet. If I do not treat inferior animals with such cruelty and I am far from as righteous as God… What does that say about him to infer that he does such things with his lesser creatures? I am ashamed to say that I used to believe in such a God.

#9

Gabe,

I think it’s sad that you find a God who punishes evil to be disgusting. If you do the crime then you do the time. God’s punishments are not cruel and unusual. He is a just God.

#10

The scriptures say differently, you must be unfamiliar with them. The scripture says every adversary will be subjected to Christ and that death will be done away with and that God will be “all in all”.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Also, your history is in error. “The Church”(whichever one you are referring to i dont know) hasnt existed for two thousand years that rejects the salvation of all as heresy.

I love C. S. Lewis. Dante was great too. They wrote some awesome fiction.

I get my truth from the scriptures.

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#11

Correction. I mistyped when I said 2000. Sorry! I will stick with the great scholars and minds like C.S. Lewis with their interpretation of the scriptures.

#12

George MacDonald from “The truth of Jesus” - “It is one thing to believe that God can do nothing wrong, quite another to call whatever presumption may attribute to him right.”

#13

As a Lewisian theologian, a disciple of his school of theology and apologetics who regards him as my Teacher, I’m pretty sure I’ve studied Lewis a lot more than you have, Cole. (Is it that time of year when you turn Arminian, or is it Calvinist season right now?)

I know the context of the “Hell” chapter from The Problem of Pain, and Lewis could only get that by being radically inconsistent with his own principles as stated a couple of chapters earlier, where he repeatedly and forcefully reminds his readers that if we expect God to quit trying to reform sinners then we’re asking for a God of less love, which as Christians we should not be expecting (much less asking for). He knew perfectly well (as a consequence from trinitarian theism, not incidentally) that God, being essentially love, must as an expression of His own self-existent reality act to save sinners from sin. (Which Calvs do not believe.) That’s why he thought he had to present a notion of God not just quitting but being sadly defeated by sinners, whom God doesn’t even actively punish really (though elsewhere Lewis shows God actively punishing them, since the scriptures certainly never once anywhere show the kind of sad defeat he thought had to be true). Is isn’t that God gives up, on Lewis’ soteriology, but that sinners force Him to stop.

(This is aside from the distinction between ECT and annihilation, which Lewis more cleverly fused together in that chapter.)

Keller is being radically inconsistent, too, even by appealing to Lewis. Lewis did not believe God creates people with no possibility of ever becoming good. You can’t logically get his soft Arminianistic notion of God just sadly being defeated in His goals and leaving them to their sins, from a Calvinistic theology of God actively choosing never to try saving them at all.

A final victory of unfairness (injustice) is not the most fair thing conceivable. (“What could be more fair?” A lot more than that!) A final decision by God to sanction final unfairness by giving up on saving sinners even though He could if He kept going, is also not the most fair thing conceivable. An original decision by God to institute and ensure final unfairness by choosing never to empower and lead unfair persons into being finally and forever fair, is very far from being the most fair thing conceivable. (Paul in that verse from Romans Keller quoted goes on immediately to chastise his congregation if any are thinking that letting sinners fall foul of the consequences of their sins, means God has given up on them and doesn’t intend to save them. You, or your source, have quoted imperfectly. In fact Paul warns that those who thus think lightly of God’s saving patience in regard to the sinners being punished with their sins in chapter 1, are storing up wrath and judgment for themselves on the day of the Lord to come!)

You might as well ask, what could glorify God more, than for sinners to achieve the victory they insist on of never coming to glorify God? Or for God to choose to quit bringing sinners to glorify God, even though He could succeed if He kept at it? Or for God to choose that some creatures shall never come to truly glorify God at all?

What could glorify God more than any of that? Timothy Keller does not know. Sadly, C. S. Lewis also didn’t know (as much as I honor him gratefully as my teacher).

But Jesus knew. That’s why (as reported in John 6) He expressly said that the Father gives all judgment to Him so that by His judgment all may come to honor both the Son and the Father, the goal being not merely to judge the world but to save the world.

Any goal less than that, is an unjust judgment. And that’s what Calvinists teach, as Arminians are aware and criticize them on.

Any result less than that, is a failed judgment. And that’s what Arminians (including, sadly, Lewis) teach, as Calvinists are aware and criticize them on.

Don’t let your mood swings distract you on this. (I’m only saying this to remind you it has happened before.) Don’t let one side or another lead you to settle for anything less than a true glorification of God as the goal and as the final result of God’s actions against injustice.

#14

Jason,

I appreciate that you have been a lot more kind to me here than in the past. I will consider what you said. Let me read it over. And seeing that you have read your Lewis I will also keep what you said in mind. Thanks buddy!

#15

I dont find a god who punishes evil disgusting.I believe His chastisements are for correction, but I do believe God does punish the wicked. I just dont believe he punishes them forever, and is content to watch them suffer forever- as they must if He never recovers them, lost as they are- lost as were we all.

As I see it, that god is not my God . :wink:

#16

BTW, I do see Lewis’s model of a kind of purgatorial conversation as presented in The Great Divorce as an incisive insight into the nature of what I believe the lake of fire is. That book actually was one of the initial influences that set me on a path towards escaping hellism and discovering the salvation of all. Again, I simply believe the scriptures indicates that eventually, all who are lost “out there” will be found.

Phil 2:9
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

#17

Thanks Eagle!

#18

Hi Cole,

Now that I am behind a computer, rather than my phone, I can respond to this the way I wanted too. First, it is a great evil to attribute something false to someone. Nowhere did I state that punishment of evil is wrong. Second, as I quoted from MacDonald earlier, it is very clear that God always does what is right. But that is somewhat meaningless if we say that God does ‘so and so’ which clearly contradicts his character. We can obviously have differing opinions on this, but the fact of the matter is that you likely do not approve of what ISIS is doing, yet you may (assuming you believe in ECT at this time) approve of God doing the very same thing. Of course, this just shows that your own concept or right and wrong is greater than the God you serve (assuming, of course, you serve the god of Molech, or one like him). That said, I don’t believe you actually do believe God would do such a thing, but that you probably fear that he could. I won’t put words in your mouth, but the idea of an eternal torture chamber should make ANYONE feel uncomfortable. That sort of unconformable when you hear what ISIS people are doing. It is horrendous. The very concept is scary, but that doesn’t make it truth. To bank on a worst case scenario is generally out of fear.

You have likely been raised to believe in a blood thirsty God. I know I was, in some ways, and of course, mainstream Christianity fuels this when you delve into theology. At best, the issue of God’s wrath is swept under the rug, at worst, it makes you feel like a totally pathetic and hopeless individual. That said, I realize how far worse it would be to meet God and have to account for what I thought about his character. I shudder to think how terrible I feel were Christ to say to me “Why did you think I would do that to someone? Do you really think that low of me? Do you really think I am going to torture people?” I cannot imagine how utterly shameful I would feel…

We get so stuck into Pascal’s wager setting the goal posts that we don’t stop to question “Who set the goal posts? and how do we know they are right?” We don’t know they are right. Therefore, we really ought to reconsider.

Jesus Christ is the image of the Invisible God. He told Thomas (I think it was Thomas) “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father!” Christ, the same Christ who preached unlimited forgiveness, love for enemies, even chastising those who only love those who love them. God didn’t think these people are anything special. No, the people who are special in his sight are the ones growing into children of God, who act like God. The ones who follow his commandments and examples. If Jesus Christ represents the Father as I believe he does, then there is no question about God’s character and asking me to believe anything about him that is not in line with his revealed character would be sinful, since I would violate my own conscience!

Cole, I know you have emotional scars, just like I do. I know you waffle on these things, just like I did. You are not alone in that your emotions and mind are taking you for a ride. I can only speak for myself, but over time God has calmed these fears. It is a process. A person who waffles is under great emotion stress. This is not a fun state to be in… I myself am not completely rid of it, but I do believe God is slowly working this “doubting Thomas” into someone a bit more stable in who God is. :slight_smile: God Bless you Cole.

#19

Gabe,

I agree that an eternal torture chamber is crazy. What I said above is that God justly punishes sin in hell. People sin God punishes - people sin and God punishes and the cycle goes on forever. The fire and darkness of hell are metaphorical for judgment. There is no cruel and unusual punishment in hell. I agree that there have been horrific images by some theologians on hell. But that’s not what I’m advocating here. I’m advocating the hell of C.S. Lewis. It’s completely in line with the character of God.

#20

Cole,

Let’s say you are correct in that a sinner can potentially refuse to repent and so perpetually sin himself into a worse and worse state. How does that knowledge impact you? It surely must remain a rarity if such a case could occur - right? If not a rarity, one has to question the Wisdom of God, to create such a creature so as to damn himself into self perpetual misery and not just one creature, but a multitude of them! It would be more merciful for him to abort these wayward children than to leave them suffering in an endless state of sinning perpetually worse and worse. But that is a bit like saying a bullet to the head is better than quartering someone, they are still terrible fates.

Still, I find it nearly impossible to believe someone would continue this way eternally and here is why:

  1. This would require that the person never learns their lesson. It would mean that this person is effectively defective on some level. Children who fail to learn basic concepts are considered challenged, handicapped, etc… We don’t fault them for this ability and work to their level to overcome. But the fact remains, they are defective in the sense that their ability to learn is several limited and generally limits their potential. Likewise, If a person continues to sin and face the consequences, yet doesn’t learn… At some level, they would also be deemed handicapped in a similar way and so perhaps God may take this into consideration. After all, he is the great judge, far better than we are with our children and their learning abilities.

  2. At some level the pain of the consequences would become greater than the pain of self-denial, and hence the path of least resistance, is, in my opinion, obedience to Jesus Christ. That is why people who pursue worldly passions are told “Do not no be fooled, God is not mocked; a man will reap what he sows” I can think of nothing more encouraging than God setting up a giant playground for us to reap what we sow, so as to learn from our mistakes. God doesn’t need to arbitrarily punish people. He doesn’t need to say “Oh, this guy is getting away with his sin, I need to create punishment so that I can prove him wrong, otherwise he might get away with this sin unscathed”. Nay, that isn’t how it works. Sin is wrong because of the destruction it brings upon others and the one who sins. God needs no artificial punishment and the reason is clear; sin isn’t sin because God says it is, it is sin because it is destructive! If God were to say adultery is now permitted and ok, would that make it any less wrong? No, it would not and would still be sin. If God were to decree what sin is, and what it is not, based on his ‘preference’ then he would not be God, because he would not exist at all! Evil ultimately destroys itself. God’s very essence is righteousness! Of this we can be sure!