Gabe,
It’s not impossible to continue forever in sin. The reason why is because those in hell are completely separated from God’s grace. (common and saving) Thus the longer they stay in hell the harder their heart becomes. It is a little scary but at the same time the just punishment of evil shouldn’t bother the Christian. Even if it does God’s healing grace in heaven will wipe away all tears and we will see the horridness of evil for what it is a be grateful to God for His protecting justice.
Cole,
I’d like to present to you Psalm 107. It had a big impact on my life. Sad to say, as much as I have read and studied the Bible, I only recently, within the last two years came to know this Psalm.
Do we believe this? I do!
Even after these people rebelled against God and spurned his counsel and suffered the fate of their sins, he heard their cries for deliverance! His steadfast love endures forever. He, like the father of the prodigal son is waiting for his words to prove true that “God will not be mocked, a man will reap what he sows” and so he will let them have their harvest and see for themselves that his counsel is right and true! Then and only then will he deliver them, because of his steadfast love for the children of men.
For those of us with sinful vices… Sin is pleasurable for a season and for after that season we think we will be able to stop and suffer no harm or corruption of the soul… But those who have been here know that this is not true; we suffered corruption and stopping our sin isn’t so easy. We are afflicted and suffer the just reward for our actions. “God will not be mocked, a man will reap what he sows”. When we finally see how our sinful vices have led us down a very terrible and dark path and that they are not innocent and that we were foolish and thought God could be mocked we will finally get to the point where we cry out to the Lord and he will deliver us, for his steadfast loves endures forever.
This Psalm clearly demonstrates how the reprobate will face the consequences of their choices and that this is by no means the end of them, for the steadfast love of the Lord endures forever. Amen!
Where does it say in scripture that those in Hell are separated from God’s grace?
Why would God put someone in Hell if he knows it will only harden their hearts?
How is that “just” punishment?
Why shouldn’t that bother a 'Christian"?
Why would we want healing grace to abstain from what is considered a good thing: Compassion and pity?
Gabe,
That’s referring to God’s people (Jews) in the O.T. is it not? God’s refining fire is always for His people. That’s why I believe in purgatory like C.S. Lewis did.
Gabe,
The Lake Of Fire is the second death. Death is separation.
What do you think?
Yes, it is referring to the Jews. If you believe God separates out humanity like that, then I guess you are back to your Calvinist beliefs. Some food for thought - In the Old Testament, the Jews were said to be God’s firstborn son. Curious, what nations are his other sons?
I don’t really think that answers the question, nor applies. Death is the ceasing of something. If Death is thrown into Death, then that would imply that Death no longer exists, I guess. That said, I’d wager that you will say “then people thrown into there will cease to exist” but, I’d say no for two reasons.
Someone can spend their whole life not doing the will of God. Hence, the hay, straw, etc… It doesn’t stand the real test. They will be saved, but just barely.
Interesting that it says “hurt”, “harmed” or “Injured” and not “Destroyed”, “Perish”, “Doomed”, etc… Clearly the lake of Fire will be a painful experience, but it just doesn’t make sense to have used the words they did if they were trying to convey annihilation or endless misery.
Gabe,
God is love and life. The Bible says people will be separated from Him:
Actually, Thomas Talbot covered that translation and makes a strong case that it isn’t “away from” but “from”, which changes both the nature and location of this punishment. Also, Young’s Literal Translation translates it this way 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 - “who shall suffer justice – destruction age-during – from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,”. Additionally, the ESV has a footnote that says “Or destruction that comes from” instead of the “away from” text. This lines up nicely with Isaiah 33:14-15 and Hebrews 12:29
I don’t believe that’s the context or the correct translation Gabe. I say that because in Matthew 7:19-23 in reference to final judgment it says:
This is separation. God is a purifying fire to His people but also consumes. In Job when God allowed Satan to destroy Job’s things the text says:
In this sense God is a consuming fire because He allowed Satan to destroy. I guess you could say that Satan destroys the sinful nature of those in hell.
I think I may be back on track now.
This creates a unique problem, I think, for you and others with your position.
Is God not Omnipresent?
A worker of lawlessness is one who commits lawless acts. This is a far cry from the traditional viewpoint that Jesus imputes his righteousness into us. What I am saying is this: You are certainly doomed if you understand this passage the way you and 99% of Christendom does. I have some very bad news for you Cole, if you don’t overcome these things:
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Then
You
Are
Doomed
Don’t believe it yet? Think you are safe?
Revelations 21:8 - "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Wait, did you notice something? The faithless are listed right next to all the other things that supposedly don’t matter if you are a '“Christian”. Yet, John couldn’t be any more clear… Faith in Jesus isn’t a free “Get out of Lake of Fire” Card. Any of those traits alive in your life? If so, welcome to the lake of fire if you don’t master them before you die. Very few will overcome, that is clear and evidence by the way people live. Think I am judging you? Think again, I myself will suffer the same fate if I don’t overcome. Yet, this fate isn’t fixed or final and the majority of people will take the broad way that leads to destruction.
That said, you may want to reconsider how your interpret these passages… If you interpret them the way most of Christianity does, you will continue to be view God as have a double personality, as loving and hating you. You are in for an emotional rollercoaster, unless you take the blue pull which says this “I can live any way I want and still go to Heaven, because I believe in something Jesus did” Ok… Well, some people go through all their life living in sin thinking they are safe, but yikes… High price to pay for peace of mind on this earth. These people have willingly taken the blue pill and be punished justly. Luckily, our Father longs for us to come back to him and he will be waiting.
Gabe,
I need to think more about this.
Cole,
Yes, I think Satan can be used, but I am not sure that Satan is an actual person or representing our sinful nature. Not sure it matters for, though. For example, turning him over to Satan might have meant “Let him sow to his flesh to reap destruction of his flesh” in other words, let him learn that God will not be mocked and he will suffer the consequences of his choices and so learn righteousness. To me, that seems the most logical course.
Either way, I want you to know Cole that your questions are good and even though I feel all of them can be answered satisfactory from my position, I do acknowledge not everyone will interpret scripture the same way. Unfortunately, due to the reformation, we now have more division in Christianity than ever before. It is very hard to argue this was of God, as God is not the author of confusion and all of these denominations show that we lack unity, something Christ really desired. So when people start looking to the theologians to the time of the Reformation, know this; it brought division. Was Christ a part of this? I don’t think so. If anything, this just goes to show we ought to respect each others views and rather than try and convince others to adopt our theology, that we just follow Christ and teach his commands. The rest? Well, God can handle that.
Alright Gabe. I need to take a break.
Take care Cole! I also need to take a break. 
Okay Gabe. I see that God is a consuming fire. So, I’m led me away from the eternal torment view but I can still see how the lake of fire is the second death (separation). I started reading the book of Revelation and I think the all things reconciled in heaven and earth may be referring to the new heaven and earth. It says in Revelation:
Those outside the gates in the lake of fire (second death) are not included in the all things being made new. It speaks of this new heaven and earth in Isaiah. The gates are open so that the redeemed can go out to look on the dead bodies:
In this context every knee will bow and very tongue confess Christ is Lord because the wicked will turn to ash and be under the soles of the feet of the righteous. In it’s prophecy of the final doom of the wicked Mal. says:
So, yes God is Omnipresent but the wicked in the “holding tank” are resurrected and then sent to the second death where they are destroyed both body and soul.
What do you think?
The word “away” does not occur in the Greek. By inserting it, the translator whom you quoted, is forcing an interpretation on the verse that, in my opinion is quite different from Paul’s intention. Without the word “away” the sentence simply asserts that the punishment originates from the presence of the Lord.
And what is the punishment? It is lasting (not “eternal”) destruction. Destruction of what? Paul uses this same word in the following sentence:
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:4,5)
This request was made of the man who was copulating with his father’s wife. Paul wasn’t asking that the man would be delivered to Satan to destroy him, but rather to destroy his flesh, that is his self-serving nature. Apparently, the Corinthian Church complied with Paul’s instruction, and the man repented (had a change of heart and mind). In 2 Corinthians, Paul asks the Corinthian Christians to forgive the man. In getting his self-serving nature destroyed, the man had to go through a lot of suffering.
Likewise, those who afflicted the Thessalonians will have to have their flesh or self-serving nature destroyed when they are raised to life again. This destruction comes from the presence of the Lord, and will be painful for them. It is an “aiōnios” or “lasting” process. How long it lasts, depends upon the individual and his response to God’s corrective love.
I think that was a very wise response, Paidion.
Paidion
I think the translators translated the Greek that way because it’s a possible translation. It’s even the most plausible because of this scripture:
This is separation. Since Jesus was God’s grace and truth then it is a separation from God’s grace. It’s the “Great Divorce” as C. S. Lewis wrote a book about. Because of this separation from grace man becomes fixed in his nature. As C.S. Lewis states in “The Joyful Christian”:
Also, the scripture you quoted:
Clearly this isn’t FINAL judgment for the person in the church is handed over to satan that he may be delivered from his sinful nature before FINAL judgment. God’s purification is always on those who are His. Malachi 3:
Notice the distinction between the two groups. One is purified and then God moves near for judgment against the adulterers, swearers, etc. etc. Indeed, at the end of Malachi we get a prophecy of the final destruction of these wicked people:
This isn’t purification at all.
Also, C.S. Lewis said this about eternal punishment:
According to people here this makes C.S. Lewis abusive and blasphemous since he held to this “blasphemous” doctrine.