MacDonald makes the case that holding something as an intellectual belief doesn’t constitute true belief. I agree with him on this. Therefore, even if someone does affirm such an intellectual belief in hell, it doesn’t mean they really do. They are, essentially giving lip service to it. The cold hard truth is this: If people truly believed it was true, they would quit their jobs and plead with men to turn their lives over to Christ. They would leave no stone unturned, no walking past people without a conversation. They would be desperate to talk to everyone… OR they are cold hearted creatures who care not for others. What is it Cole? Do you care about others or do you really not believe the thing you think that you do? You cannot have it both ways. How we behave reflects our beliefs. Hence, any Christian who doesn’t desperately snatch others out of the eternal fire either doesn’t believe it, or is quite evil. Take your pick.
“Hence, any Christian who doesn’t desperately snatch others out of the eternal fire either doesn’t believe it, or is quite evil.”
Gabe, you’re brilliant! I’ve never thought of that.
Gabe,
God is patient towards all wanting them to repent and come to Christ. But there is coming a time when His patience will be over and He will execute His justice against evil. People will get what they want and deserve. If someone is evil and they commit a crime then they must serve their time. Those in hell remain unrepentant forever. Those in hell sin - God punishes - they sin - God punishes - they sin and the cycle goes on forever. I care enough to tell people, “Hey don’t do that or it will get you into trouble.” But when they continually do it and justice takes over then they must serve their time. If they continually commit crimes and reject God then He lets them go and executes justice because He is just. God is infinitely valuable. His glory is number one. You love people more than you do God. This contradicts the Bible. We are to love God above all else. For He alone is God. His punishment in the end is just.
Cole,
You didn’t answer Gabe’s question/ultimatum. You sidetracked it by repeating everything you said in this forum which you started by the way. Can I ask: What’s your point of starting this forum? Are you trying to show us the hell of CS Lewis is just and that we should just accept it? I don’t mean to sound rude but I do want to understand what you are trying to get across in one sentence and why you brought it up.
I don’t have a problem with Calvinism in some of its basic constructs such as TUI (from the 5 points of Calvinism - TULIP), radically more difficult perseverance of the saints than what Reformed churches would even suggest (with the assumption that saints = believers in the first resurrection), and God’s total sovereignty but if what you’re suggesting about an eternal hell where people are punished for their evildoing in a never ending cycle is true then God is not interested in fixing them and John 3:16 would have to be warped to mean something completely different than what is originally understood.
Nick,
I answered Gabe satisfactorily. I think I’m coming to see (along with Timothy Keller) that C.S. Lewis was right about hell. Since the grace of God is removed from the hearts of the reprobate their hearts are hardened and they want to be there. Yes there is misery and at times people will gnash their teeth in anger. But the fire, worms and darkness are all symbols of judgment. I think people will want relief at times but their harden hearts keep them enslaved to sin so that they ultimately don’t want a relationship with God. As Timothy Keller says:
People in hell are evil and hardened and only become more so the longer they are there. Contrast this with the view of hell by John Piper:
I think C.S. Lewis is correct.
I think this conversation has run its course… Not much more can be said on the matter. Continuing the discussion would be fruitless. That said, regarding our beliefs on these matters - We can set them aside and instead focus on obeying Jesus Christ.
I just need to add one more thing about this view of eternal punishment Gabe. It would seem that the longer one stays in hell the more use to the torment they would become. Again, we are not speaking of torture here. But as one becomes more and more use to the torment the less aware they are of how terrible it is. After awhile, those that prefer to be in hell, hell doesn’t seem all that horrible. But from the point of view of those enjoying eternal bliss, hell really does seem so terrible. Part of the misery of hell is the sad fact that those who are in hell for awhile don’t realize how miserable their condition has become because they lose the capacity to appreciate genuine happiness after they are in hell for awhile.
And so God was therefore justified in creating them and allowing them to be under the influence of sinful nature, knowing full well they’d turn into a state beyond disrepair where they would never even be able to experience genuine happiness? With a ‘free will’ that would be so destroyed that they wouldn’t even be able to choose or be aware of anything other than total darkness?
I’d rather be an atheist than believe such a monstrously vile doctrine.
I think it’s crazy that you think just punishment of evil is vile Jonny. It boggles the mind. Moreover your view is unjust.
Cole, that’s not what I said. I do think punishment for the sake of punishment, with the end goal merely being punishment, punishment for all eternity, is vile. However I wasn’t even talking about that.
Do you seriously believe that God would be willing to create a person (with the person themselves obviously having no say in whether this happens, seeing as they only exist because of God creating them in the first place), allow them to be corrupted by sinful nature, influences, pains and hurts, and to not even be able to function properly without Him, and then never save them in the end? Do you believe God is that evil, that tyrannical, that disgustingly arrogant that He would do that?
Why is my view unjust?
Your view is unjust because people in hell continue to sin. Even here on earth nobody is perfect. How much more so is this true when people are separated from all grace and allowed to completely go their own way? People in hell sin - God punishes - people sin - God punishes and the cycle goes on and on. There is no cruel and unjust punishment in hell.
This is exactly what people in hell will be saying. And no I believe God is eternally just and holy. Hence, He justly punishes evil as it continues forever. It’s like the prisoner who gets locked up and continues to commit more crimes in prison. Justice says that he must get more time added to his sentence if he continually commits crime.
But He creates a person into a fallen world consumed by sinful nature and allows that despite knowing that the person will never turn away from sin. What is the justification for that? What is the justification for creating and eternally sustaining the existence of that person? What is the justification for allowing sin to exist, allowing that person to be born into sinful nature if He never redeems that person?
Game, set and match, Jonny95, well done! 
Jonny,
Man sins of his own will and is therefore justly held accountable and punished. The apostle Paul answers this objection of yours and when the Apostle Paul answers an objection of heresy it is wise to listen:
That does not answer my questions, Cole (quite apart from the fact that the reference to the potter and the clay could come from several places in the Old Testament, all of them hopeful not hopeless).
So let me ask again; what is the justification for God creating humans who He knew would sin, bringing them into existence in a fallen world without ever destroying the sin in them? What is the justification for God, the holy and just God, Who creates a world where permanent, eternal sin and injustice reigns forever (even if only in hell - it still continues)? What is the justification for God never saving people whom He could save if He wanted to but doesn’t? Or if He can’t save them, how disgusting do you think it is for God to take such a risk creating humans whom He knows may live eternally in sin and misery? How would He be justified in allowing sin’s existence if good never ultimately wins?
Jonny,
I find it hugely bizarre that you didn’t see the answer to your question in the passage. I’ve already dealt with this before so, I’m not going to keep going over it and over it, but here it is:
You seem to think that God is obligated to show grace to rebel sinners who don’t want to have anything to do with Him. This is bizarre. You know nothing about grace. Grace is unmerited favor and never owed to sinners. Hell is simply the just punishment of those who have been separated from God’s grace for eternity. Because they are separated from God’s grace (common and saving) they remain evil while in hell. Indeed, the longer one remains in hell the more hardened their heart becomes and thus, the more just God’s punishment of them is. Part of the justice of hell is God keeping evil’s harm and influence out of the new creation as God protects His children (the bride of Christ) from its destruction. The glory of God’s justice shines forever as He shows His tender love to His children. Moreover, this glory has been there since the beginning. God experiences all past, present, and future events as being “present” in His timeless eternal now. It’s this glory that God rejoices in. The glory of His beautiful mercy and justice. It’s not that He’s sadistic. For it’s not the suffering of those in hell in and of itself that God is glorified in. Rather, it’s His justice. God is eternal and therefore His justice must likewise be eternal. As the above passage states, all parts of His glory must shine forth so that His children may have a proper knowledge of Him. Thus, making their joy complete.
Stuff it, I’ll bite:
Yes, yes I do. God has created us with longings, pains, hurts, desires, weaknesses, even to the point where we don’t even function properly without him. As such God does have obligations towards us, obligations that outweigh our own obligations - for He’s the one who has created us unable to function without Him. So yes he is obligated to show us grace, if indeed you can call it an obligation - though this ‘obligation’ is not from a law external to Himself per se but is from His very own nature and being and is carried out with ultimate liberty, not from a sense of extrinsic duty.
I would advise you not to make such sweeping statements as “You know nothing about grace” when you haven’t got a clue what I think about grace.
Your second sentence here is made up of two points that do not follow on from each other. While I agree grace is unmerited favour and that we do not have to earn what God gives us, I also believe that God is obligated from His own being to give us this grace, especially through his own act of creation. By creating us, He has obligated Himself to us, and by creating us as only able to function with Him, He has obligated Himself to get us functioning perfectly according to His will, His will which is to share in His fellowship.
Clearly they’re not completely separated from God’s grace. After all, He’s keeping them in existence.
Eternal hell is just punishment is it? Why? Why is it necessary for justice to be fulfilled that sinners must suffer for all eternity? What does it do? What is the point? (Note: do not quote Romans 9 at me again here - it’s wider context is utterly irrelevant to the point you’re trying to make)
All glory to God for keeping and sustaining the victory of evil! Hallelujah!
Technically God’s punishment cannot become more just than it was before otherwise it was unjust in the first place. God is infinitely just yesterday, today and forever. He does not change in that regard.
Again I’ll ask; why is it necessary for justice that sinners must suffer for the sake of suffering? How does it deal with or correct sin? How does it destroy sin? How does it render everything just?
And no love at all to His enemies. All hail His tender love! Hallelujah!
Completely agree - but don’t be separating mercy from justice here. He is just to those who are saved and merciful to those who are being punished.
No joy for the others down there though. Mind you, who cares if they’re having a miserable time, God looks pretty damn powerful administering his justice up here. All hail his power! Hallelujah!
Because man is a fallen sinner grace is never owed. In fact grace is never owed to creation. For you cannot deserve to be created. But because of man’s demerit grace is especially never owed. I like your point about God keeping people in existence so it would be His saving grace that man is separated from in hell. When you sin God must punish for He is just. If you do the crime you do the time. God is glorified by His just punishment of evil as well as His gracious redeeming of evil. He is glorified by both and since He is eternal His infinite glory must shine forever. All parts not just one aspect. For His children’s joy consist in the knowledge of Him. And if His children’s knowledge of Him be imperfect then their happiness will likewise be imperfect. Thus, His justice shines forever making His grace all the more brighter. You can keep blaspheming this holy God all you want. But it would be wise to repent.
Cole, I’m not going to continue responding, you didn’t answer a single question of mine and I don’t think you’re going to either.
Don’t accuse me of blasphemy though - that’s a very loaded charge that you’ve just issued without cause and I’d suggest you actually think before accusing someone of that. I don’t take too kindly of being accused of it and you’re only accusing me of it because I disagree with you.
I wasn’t disagreeing with you because I hate God or hate you; it’s on the contrary. So don’t just respond by using the blasphemy card. It’s pretty unhelpful and not particularly nice either.
Whatever you say Jonny 