The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Hell of Debating Hell

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Hi, everyone,

As many of you know, I have been on a sabbatical-of-sorts, avoiding theological tangles and just dropping by every once and awhile to discuss art, prayer requests, and other “safe” subjects. I simple felt (and feel!) burned out on theological discourse.

I understand that such burn-out is normal and perfectly alright. Yet here lies my major concern: I am a convinced Christian universalist, but I recognize that my knowledge on the subject isn’t overwhelmingly deep. The facts that I have been presented regarding ECT and universal restoration seem to, in my mind, point convincingly to universalism. Nonetheless, I doubt I could hold my own in a debate with a fire-and-brimstone Christian. Indeed, I even have trouble reaching my own parents, who seem to naturally lean toward universal reconciliation in Christ.

I want to learn more about universal reconciliation for the sake of sharing with others, but I dread doing more intensive research, because I find reading about hell to be, quite frankly, hell. I know part of my qualms is in all the pain researching these things has caused me in the past. I suppose I feel trapped between wanting to escape more of such suffering myself by avoiding research and wanting to prevent such suffering in others by researching more. Has anyone here dealt with similar experiences? How did you overcome the trepidation? How much research is necessary until one’s belief becomes “credible” in others’ eyes?

Is it alright to be a Christian universalist based on one’s experiences with a few particularly convincing situations and arguments? Do not most “mainstream” Christians do precisely this same thing?

Love to you all,

Kate

#2

Hey Kate,

I know how you feel. Studying and trying to figure out the issue of hell has caused me a lot of pain and suffering myself. I don’t worry about it any more. I’ve let it go. I just like to just share what’s in my heart with people. For me, sharing love and being my true self is more effective that trying to be right about hell. Keep your eyes on Jesus and everything will be okay.

#3

Thank you, Michael, for the thoughtful words.:slight_smile: I really appreciate them.:slight_smile:

#4

Hi Kate,
I know what you mean. I too struggle to study Scripture because i’m worried i’ll read something that will prove i’m wrong. I have thus found the thoughts of many less timid quite helpful, especially on here. I do find debate stressful sometimes, especially when i am on the defensive due to taking a slightly non-traditional position…or seemingly so. However, it gets less bad. I feel like in a discussion even with people that intimidated me before, i could at least now remember some of the arguments i’ve thought through, which i think are convincing.

i think that experience and emotional responses can be quite important, although they may say more about you than they do about the objective truth of your view. so if you were a ‘zorch the wicked’ type of person, as we all are in certain circumstances, it says that there is a bit of you that still is reactive and fearful of wickedness, despite God promising to deliver you. if you however love your enemies and forgive those that persecute you and others in the world, then …well that’s what Jesus said to do. that to me is a mark of maturity. if that position informs your belief that God knows His business and clearly and unambiguously is said by Scripture to be working towards saving all He wants to save [also unambiguously everyone], then to me, your view of salvation and reconciliation is a mature one.

Augustine may’ve been laughing at us when he said universalists were tender-hearted…well, would he laugh at Jesus for the same ‘fault?’

we’ve nothing to fear. God is the source of all that is good. anything that makes Him out to be less than that cannot be true.

i believe we invent hell for ourselves…right here, right now. there might be some form of fire for redemptive purposes afterwards as well, but it’s not as bad as this monstrous medieval place we’ve imported from some forms of Paganism.

#5

Thank you, James, for your understanding (so glad to see you back, by the way! :smiley: )

Oddly enough, I do feel very confident in believing universalism – just not debating it. That is, I understand how* my* brain works, but what seems like a cohesive argument in my thoughts usually comes across a jumbled mess the moment I open my mouth. To quote Abraham Lincoln, “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.” :laughing:

Many conservative Christian don’t give much credence to arguments rooted in feelings, as it is a common Christian belief that man’s hearts is deceitful above all things. While I have a stable comprehension, I think, of the likes of Talbott and Parry, I have only reached the understanding level of personal conviction, not public persuasion. I wonder if reading more might help, but is it possible that scholarly debate cannot convince anyone of the unspeakable joy of universal salvation – One must first descend to the depths of the horrors of hellfire doctrine first, and I doubt most Christians ever reach that level. :confused: I wonder if God wants us to reach that level. :confused:

#6

Kate, I sympathize with you 100%. I think you’d feel more comfortable with your beliefs if you could do some in-depth study. You don’t need to be able to debate, for example, a reformed pastor on facebook. :astonished: It’s enough if you have (and can pull out at will) answers to the more common questions and can be honest enough to admit you don’t know (if you don’t) on the other ones. The best book I can recommend for that would be Hope Beyond Hell (imo) which is, luckily, free. Have you gotten it yet? You can download it from their website in a PDF, which is great because it’s searchable.

What I did was to look up and read (and make a note of) every single bible verse in the book. That took a while, as there are so . . . very . . . many . . . that support UR. Some of those he offers don’t really say “UR” to me, but many of them do. I started out with the Evangelical Universalist, which was spectacular, but if I had it to do again, I think I’d choose HBH as my first book. Not only is it a bit more basic, but it’s also super heavy on scripture, which is what I and many others value even more than philosophical and logical arguments.

While I think it’s very possible to persuade someone who’s willing to look at what you have to say, for a person who isn’t ready to consider that her/his view of the bible is subject to having been in at least some degree of error – well, the chances are pretty much squarely set at a big round zero that you’ll convince them. So unless you enjoy debating (which sometimes I do – if my debate partner is honest, not attempting to use sophistry, and courteous), there’s really no point in bothering with it. The important thing is to be able to give an answer for the hope that lies within you – to those who are open to hearing what you have to say.

Love you – will send you an e-mail in a few minutes.

Cindy

#7

Dear Cindy,

Thank you for the kind words, as always. I am rushing out very soon and will be gone for a majority of the day, but I will respond properly to your post and your thoughtful email when I return home later this evening.:slight_smile:

Love,

Kate

#8

I want to learn more about universal reconciliation for the sake of sharing with others, but I dread doing more intensive research, because I find reading about hell to be, quite frankly, hell. I know part of my qualms is in all the pain researching these things has caused me in the past.

Interestingly for such an important subject the whole issue really boils down to the precise definition of just a few greek words. “Aion”, “Aionios”,“gehenna”,
“hades”, “krisis”, “krino” etc. Ultimately the greek definition usually has several possibilities which give some support to all three of the primary systems.
So the key to this may boil down to God’s character and God’s purposes. Will God get what he wants or not? His will is that everyone s/b saved but apparently mans will is rebellious so how can God get what he wants if mans freewill may be different?
If you want to converse on UR i suggest these are the issues to learn about.

#9

I sympathise too Katie. I’m no theologian and the nuances of Greek tenses is way beyond my language skills. Yet I do want to be able to talk to my friends about UR in a way that doesn’t have them thinking its just an emotional reaction to my mother dying, or whatever.

I like the book that Cindy recommended - Hope Beyond Hell - its also available as an abridged 48 page version, which is the one that I first started with. It has been recorded onto MP3 which I have found useful, but I find that I hear something interesting and need to look in the book to check it out again.

I find youtube to be a valuable resource. Kevin Miller can be seen in a few debates on youtube. No reason why you can’t copy his arguments.

Rachel Held Evans did an “ask a universalist” blog-post in which her readers asked questions which Robin Parry answered with videos. Here they are:

rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-u … t-response I particularly like his answer about the rich man and Lazarus, again, worth using yourself.

I have sent links to these a couple of times when in discussion.

I hope this helps a little.

Blessings,

Mike

#10

Hi Kate,

Scripture encourages us to be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in us, but it doesn’t say that we must be ready to debate why we believe something. In fact, Paul writes “Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God’s presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.” I love studying scripture and came to believe Jesus really is the savior of all through personal study of scripture concerning UR and Hell. It shocked me to find that the words “translated” as Hell do not mean hell. Sheol and Hades simply mean grave or realm of the dead. And Gehenna is the name of an actual place, Hinnom Valley. So Hell is not once actually named in scripture. And it is not as if there were no words that could have been called upon to name a place of ECT. In Greek mythology Tartarus was such a place. And though I do not recall the name of such, even the Egyptians had the concept of a hellish place in their book of the dead.

Well, anyhow, I enjoy sharing why I’ve come to believe in UR, but if someone seems upset by it or becomes argumentative, I back of and move on to another topic. I enjoy discussing UR but have found arguments rarely are production, in person or online. I encourage you to simply love God and love people, be open to sharing the hope that is in you, avoid arguments, and enjoy studying scripture for your personal edification. Do that and no worries.

Blessings,
Sherman

#11

I think in practice those who precisely this same thing will rarely accept others doing precisely this same thing. :slight_smile:

So in practical practice the question is whether you’re willing to accept that it’s all right to be a Christian non-universalist of some sort based on one’s experiences with a few particularly convincing situations and arguments.

(And I grant that leeway to other Christians, despite having much higher standards for my own beliefs. That doesn’t mean I accept their pitiably weak and erroneous attempts at refuting my beliefs, especially when they do so in a superior fashion. :wink: But I know most people aren’t in a position to do a lot of real research and rigorous analytical thought on the matter, even when they otherwise “study the Bible” a lot.)

#12

Yes, Mike, I do find all the Greek to be as confusing as, well, Greek! :laughing: (Although Steve did have a good point about simplifying the Greek!) I’ve watched Robin Parry’s video answers before, and I find them quite helpful. I’ll have to revisit it them. I do believe I will begin delving back into theological, little by little, by first reading the abridged version of Hope Beyond Hell. I looked it up and it doesn’t look overwhelming or technical, unlike many theological writings. Hopefully, in reading something simpler I can rework up the courage to delve into deeper, more confusing issues later.

Like you, Sherman, I find it incredibly convincing and comforting that the words “translated” as “hell” do not mean “hell.” Sadly, when I try to explain this to other Christians, they seem to then accuse me of somehow manipulating what is “plainly” in the Bible to fit my own agenda. They simply do not understand that the Bible was not originally written in English. It’s all very tiresome, and I inevitably come away feeling like a heretic! :laughing: :confused:

:laughing: :laughing: Very true, Jason! And I’m sure I’ve been guilty here as well! :laughing:

Yes, I find it rather annoying that for most Christian around my neck of the woods, “study the Bible” means “read through the Bible like a novel and take it 100% literally.”

Thanks and blessings to you all,

Kate

#13

Hiya Kate,
i think maybe not debating it at all, and just holding it in your heart may be wisest. We aren’t required to believe in UR to be saved, though of course it vastly enriches it for those of us that do. It’s a good comfort for those who need it, but sometimes it’s enough to just hint that God knows His business, and God knows how to save the person they are concerned about, and to trust Him. That’s usually far easier to digest than the Universal aspect for those unfamiliar with their doctrinal options.
I personally only talk about UR when i’m chatting with people who either don’t believe or already are on my page.
I think it’s a growing thing in the UK, especially among liberals and post-evangelicals, and because of centuries of religious warfare, many here are tired of angry dogmatic argument over Scriptural viewpoints. Maybe what you need over there is a good old fashioned Catholic vs Protestant brawl for a few years til everyone’s tired of having to be right all the time :laughing:

#14

I like to get specific and share about how tragic it is that English translations mistranslate Gehenna. Gehenna is a real place - Hinnom Valley. I describe it and then talk about it’s history and how tragic it is to mistranslate it as Hell. Doing so actually nullifies the power of the word of God to call anyone to repentance. It was in Hinnom Valley that the wicked king Ahaz erected an idol of Melech - head of a bull, torso of a man, and belly of a furnace - and sacrificed their own children to it in its flames. It was this that broke the back of God’s mercy and Isaiah and Jeremiah prophecy of the coming destruction of Jersualem with bodies being cast into Hinnom Valley to burn and be eaten by maggots (worms that don’t die). So Jesus warns that it’s better to cut your hands off or pluck your eyes out than to be cast into Hinnom Valley. In other words, get the sin out of your life or you’ll sacrifice your own children to your idols and bring destruction on all that you love, your family and even your community and culture! By mistranslating Gehenna as Hell it destroys such passages to call anyone to repentance. Believers say, “This passage doesn’t really apply to me because I’m saved by grace and not going to hell.” And unbelievers do not care what it says. When Jesus actually spoke it to the Jews, the children of God. Sin brings death and destruction in a person’s life whether they are believers or not. In fact, Jesus said that to whom much is given, much is expected. So passages like this scare the hell out of me - which is what I think they were meant to do!

#15

That’s a great way to put it, Sherman. Thanks for that.

#16

Hi Kate,

FYI, the author of Hope Beyond Hell, Gerry Beauchemin, has created business-card sized advertisements of his book & website. The front side says “Is there Hope Beyond Hell” (and has a picture of his book, and an attractive pastoral scene). The back side says “YES! … Jesus said (Rev. 1:17-18) … ‘FEAR NOT, I … have the KEYS of hell and of death.’ What does this mean? Find out at: HopeBeyondHell.Net” (and has a picture of a man inserting a very large key into a lock).

The last time I checked, these cards were free for the asking.

So instead of debating, you could simply hand out these cards and say “Here’s a pretty good summary of what a believe” or something like that.

Just a thought.

#17

I don’t think it is necessary, nor profitable, to get in huge theological debates with those who have a firm stance on ECT. Rather, it ought to be our job to get them to think about what they are thinking. The thing that got me to thinking was the dilemma of the unevangelized lost, which when I was a proponent of ECT was overwhelming to think that there could be billions of people in the world today that are doomed to the eternal fires of hell forever and ever. It just didn’t seem to me the mark of an efficient God. It just seemed absurd to believe that Satan and his minions have beaten God in the battle for men’s souls.

If you can get people to think about things like that, I believe it will soften them up to investigate further. I mean, that is what did it to me, because I had no inkling at all about the possibility of UR.

One of the best lectures I read so far that brings to the forefront this kind of abstract thinking is “Absurdities Exposed” by Universalist Minister. M.J. Steere (1861), for just a few ideas that can spark conversation.

Here is an exerpt:

There was a woman who apparently had similar thoughts not so long age: Andrea Yates. In 2001, she drowned her five little boys in a bathtub for the exact same fear. She told a prison psychiatrist, “It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren’t righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell.”

And I ask, as in the article, what could one really say to this woman, that if true, her children are now in heaven?

#18

On a completely incidental tangent: I like your new fairy-ring avatar, Kate! :slight_smile:

#19

Yes! That is such a gorgeous painting, Kate. :smiley:

And yes alas, the poor deranged mother has been deranged by the false doctrine taught to and received unquestioningly by her. I suspect maybe Augustine was wiser to say that unbaptized infants would go to hell, whereas those within the RCC were safe – as it removed the motivation that moved that poor (undoubtedly mentally ill) lady who drowned her little boys. :frowning: On the dark(er) side, it made persecution of those deemed heretics even harsher – by the same logic.

#20

I agree! :smiley:
I PMed Kate expressing my admiration for her avatar “Midsummer Eve” by Edward Robert “Ted” Hughes (who was engaged to GMac’s daughter for 4 years before she died of tuberculosis.) She was unaware of the GMac connection with the painting and we’ve decided to look at some of his work on the Pre-Raphaelite thread.