Hello lovely romantic Kate 
Hallo liebe romantische Kate
Salut ma chere romantique Catherine
I would be very interested to know your opinion on two reviews of hellish and heavenly debates I wrote:
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/the-tentative-apologist-and-the-friendly-atheist-discuss-about-heaven/
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/the-dark-side-of-destiny/
Lovely greetings in Christ.
Liebe Gruesse in Christus.
Salutations fraternelles.
I just finished reading to page 10 in the online abridged version of Hope Beyond Hell. As the author puts it, “This book’s subject is hell, but it is really about God.” Nonetheless, I feel a hell of a lot of fear in reading it – even if I know the author’s intention is to promote universal reconciliation. Why is this so? I can’t quite say-- I think part of me is simply so afraid of reliving the torment of believing ECT. Just one word could tip off a whole new slew of doubts. My faith is so pathetic that simply reading about hell conjures up in me a feeling of dread and doubt about something that I can’t even pinpoint – I’m a doubter and I don’t even know what I’m doubting!
You all have been a great help, with comforting thoughts and wise words, so thank you. I don’t really know what it is I’m asking-- perhaps nothing. Just ranting maybe. 
On a happier note, I am looking forward to discussing GMac and the painting “Midsummer’s Eve” on the Pre-Raphaelite thread.
You look forward Kate And I love the new avatar 
I pushed through the threat of doubt and read a few more pages of Hope Beyond Hell. Although I still do fear the ECT “proof-texts,” I think I’m to the point where it would take mounds of proof in the negative to persuade me from hope in universal restoration. So I will venture – still little by little – in thinking more about theology, because I do want to know more. I guess the only way to overcome fear of the unknown is to make it known.
Kate, in addition to mentioning my own doubts as above and that i sympathise with you, i should tell you about my mum who is basically a Universalist, but she really struggles to actually commit to it. So you aren’t alone with your doubts and wondering. Don’t worry about it…doubt is in my opinion a very important part of the journey of faith.
Thanks, James. The odd thing is that I would classify myself – without question – as a believer in universal reconciliation. I am a Christian Universalist. Sometimes, I still feel guilty both being so – but I can’t help it. I’m a universalist, and there’s nothing I can do about it! 
Doubt is a hard feeling to describe. I think that I (if not everyone) will exist simultaneously as both a believer and a doubter.
I think that is a good and honest thing to be!!!
Hi Kate,
I’d encourage you to study the UR passages like Col.1:20, Rom.5:18. I’ve attached a word doc of scriptures I’ve highlighted over the years. Faith for the salvation of all is built upon seeing UR through the passages that affirm UR. When I was an Infernalist I found these so compelling that I started a study of the passages on “Hell” to reaffirm my belief in Hell; but as I studied them what I thought was rock-solid (Hell) crumbled between my fingers like sand and I was left with having faith in Jesus to save all because of first having studied the pro-UR passages. Faith comes through embracing the positive passages.
Blessings,
Sherman
Universalistic Texts.doc (52.5 KB)
Dear Kate,
Where is your faith placed? To say it another way, what do you have faith in?
I remember when I first came to believe in UR I was off to the races. I argued, debated, researched hours on end. Through all of it I had nagging doubts, fears that I might be totally wrong, as if my very understanding decided whether all were saved or not. What troubled me the most was the change I saw this doctrine had in others and even myself. For instance in the 19th century there had been a few million who believed in UR, but this group finally evolved into the unitarian universalists we know of today. I began to see that many in the past (and a few in the present) denied the deity of Christ, became more liberal in their theology, and eventually left the truth. To me that is horrifying. Now do not misunderstand me, I am not saying all who believe UR end up here, but historically it cannot be denied that groups who adopted began after a time to deny the doctrines of Scripture and finally Scripture itself. Unitarian is now a word associated with universalism (to the point where you all have to call yourselves evangelical universalists). Though that might be okay with some, it is not with me, Jesus is at the core of my identity, who He is matters.
But even ignoring the past the effect UR had on some fellow believers today is quite disturbing to me as well. One in particular nows denies the deity of Christ, and even the validity of the Scriptures as teaching truth (some on here do the same). I also saw arrogance begin to come out in me and others. Snarkly calling their God a monster, angrily (and condescendingly) mocking their beliefs. You might think this was a personal issue, and indeed it was wrong of me, but I have seen other universalists act this way, and I believe it is a wrong spirit, a spirit just as judgemental if not worse than some who espouse ECT.
Eventually I stopped thinking about UR and started treating hell as eternal, supressing the arguments within me (I thought at the time that I had been taken captive by empty and deceitful philosophy, or something to that effect). As time went on (a year or so) I didn’t think much of hell, I kept studying and began taking delight in the knowledge of God. When I had focused on UR I used to became fearful whenever I opened my Bible, afraid that it would disprove my belief, that some new verse would deal it a death-blow. After I let it go I was overwhelmed by how much peace and joy the Scriptures gave me (especially when I didn’t need to fit every single one into UR). My focus went from all people being saved to God and His church.
I began meditating on the nature of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (who might be taken together as “the fullness of God”). Along with this I also started to recognize the influence of humanism in my thinking, the man-centeredness of how I viewed things and how Christ needed to become my center, my everything. As I started down this path, growing in love for Christ and His truth I was tested in obedience, I learned how crucial our faith is. Faith is not only belief in something or someone, but is total reliance in it/them. My eyes were opened and I understood how everything I do and say must be in dependence on Christ, the Spirit, and our heavenly Father. In this way God receives all the glory, all the honor and praise. Since this is now my focus and passion it means I think very differently. What does this have to do with Universal Reconciliation? Everything!
One day as I was meditating on Christ being above all things and creator of all, my thoughts turned to Ephesians 1:10 again. I had come to believe in the sovereignty of God, that if He wants to accomplish something then He will, but this one idea would not leave me. If God’s purpose is to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth, then how did that not mean salvation for all? Can anything be considered “in Christ” unless it is experiencing God’s life and love? And if this is His purpose, and if He works all things after the counsel of His will, then what other possible outcome could be foreseen?
Now many of you know this verse, you know my line of reasoning, what you might now get is why I find it persuasive. Many people believe in universalism for the wrong reasons. Quite a few I have found believe it out of emotion, they can’t stand the thought of God eternally punishing others. Combine that with unsaved relatives and loved ones that died before accepting Christ and you have great emotional reasons to embrace UR. Others come to it out of love for humanity, they see ECT as cruel and cannot imagine a “God of love” ever allowing or doing such a thing. Let me be blunt, accepting UR because “God is love” is very very weak in my opinion. Its the same tired argument that every unbeliever uses to justify their sin. It ignores the fullness of His character, yes He is love, and I rejoice that this is His essence. But it is not any reason to embrace UR. I can believe God is love and still see conditional immortality as a justified alternative to ECT. I can see God is love, but then what about Him being light, in which there is no darkness at all? If mankind refuses to be light, but to stay as darkness, how then can God gather them into Himself? ECT may be the final solution to a humanity that rejects the light of Christ, that loves its sin. All these things do not confute God being love, so you should not embrace UR because “God is love”.
Why should we believe all will be restored? Only because the Scriptures teach it and because it is God’s purpose. Not only this, but it gives God the Father glory! True Christianity is about God’s glory not man’s happiness. Yes mankind will be blessed, He will be made happy, but selfishly, not with the self-love that most wish to be made happy with. The greatest proof to me of UR’s truth is this:
Every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue profess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!
We all know the words in this verse speak of willing worship, joyous adoration and confession. And all of it is done to God the Father’s glory. This is a picture of willing subjection to Jesus Christ and His Lordship, to the power of the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of every human being. If He can do this (which I believe He will) then UR is true. All things will be summed up in Christ, all will be healed. Even if it takes the lake of fire to do so, even if people are corrected, lost and dead for as long as it takes, still He will bring it to fruition.
So Kate, do you have faith in Christ Jesus? Do you have faith in God’s ability to accomplish His will? And do you believe that the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to bring it about? Put you faith in Christ, set your eyes on His face, desire to live for His glory and honor. Your belief in UR doesn’t make it true or not, only God’s purpose and plan can do so, only His sovereign power. We are simply co-laborers with Him. The end of all being is God’s glory, not mankind’s happiness, if our goal is to glorify Him then we will find fulfillment, we will live in peace and joy and love.
Remember faith, hope, and love remain when everything else has come to an end. Love makes faith effective and active, faith is the substance of things hoped for, and our hope is not in things seen, because you hope for what is unseen. So each and every one of them is built upon the other, love being the cornerstone. Yet if hope in the end remains, and if hope is always in something unseen, then how can there ever be an end of surprises in the ages to come? If hope never ends, then how can we ever fear God’s plan for the future?
The beginning is Christ: all things were made through Him and for Him. The ending is Christ: summing up all things in Him. He is to have premminence, and by having such all things in heaven and on earth will glorify Him. As Jesus said, “I am the first and the last, beginning and the end, alpha and omega.” All of this to the praise of God’s glory, and to the honor of the Holy Spirit.
Perfect love drives away all fear, so love the Lord and you’ll find that peace, knowing that the greatest blessing humanity will ever find is in loving and enjoying God forever.
Every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue profess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!
Yes this is a great verse particularly because Paul quoted Isaiah but he added “and under the earth” which includes the dead. Including the dead is huge
because that would literally include everyone.
Of course you can pick this apart like anything can be picked apart. An annihilationist could say this occurs after the unsaved were annihilated. The ECT believer could claim unbelievers will be forced to profess Jesus Christ is Lord.
That was a great perspective about how believing UR may impact us in our relationship with God. It is something we need to be aware of.
Well that’s your opinion, aletheia. Personally I think you’re way off the mark, and somewhat uncharitable to those who, like me, are trying their best to be true to God’s self-revelation in Christ, and in the Bible, that he “is love”. That God is love is the most fundamental thing we can know about him, because it is the most fundamental thing about him full stop. Everything we think or say about God must be done in the light of this vital, underpinning principle that he is love. Orthodox ECT doctrine is logically incompatible with God’s essence as love, as Thomas Talbott has demostrated quite unequivocally. I can give you links to the relevant threads and articles if you’re interested.
Contrary to what you say I think our emotions are an excellent guide to what we should believe about God. For where do they come from if not from him anyway? We only love because God loves. And are we more loving than God, more merciful than God, in rejecting the notion that God will turn his back on his loved ones forever?
And I don’t think that bludgeoning a fellow believer struggling with doubts - and name me one who hasn’t and I’ll show you a bloody liar - with exhortations to “have more faith in God” is particularly helpful either.
Cheers
Johnny
Awakening
i appreciate your concerns, but personally my path was very different. I found that as i got rid of the cognitive dissonance caused by “believing” in ECT, suddenly Jesus was the focus.
I personally see nothing wrong with pointing out nests of vipers, as Jesus did, because He was more concerned with their victims than with the feelings of the Pharisees. telling off a reformed minister for preaching a hateful message might allow some to escape his fear-based theology, and might give them reason to trust in the goodness of God. it may hurt his feelings, and yes we ought to season our words with love, but sometimes an evil message (such as the heresy and blasphemy of prosperity gospel, as an example) needs to be FIRMLY put in its place.
As for fearing to read the Bible AFTER embracing UR, i was afraid of it before. I’m less so now. Yes, you wonder and you doubt, but the more you learn about this amazing message which brings so much glory to God, the less you fear the book that talks about humanity’s love/hate relationship with this wonderful God that loves them so much despite their shortcomings.
i don’t think it’s fair to say that so many groups have abandoned what you consider to be true teachings of the Bible (likely i agree with you on a bunch of them)…certainly some have, but i don’t think that embracing UR is a cheap and wooly thing to do that leads people to throw out the Bible or the Person of Christ. I don’t think UR offers easy answers, and i don’t think it leads to liberalism necessarily (depending on how you even define that) I think it is costly. I have to face the fact that one day i’ll have to forgive bad people in my life because i will have to spend eternity with them! this is inconvenient for me (i’m speaking generally, i don’t really have any enemies that i hate this much!), but it’s a HUGE price to ask of a victim of an atrocity. Yet God asks it…and He asks no more of us than He asks of Himself, as He paid the ultimate price.
I appreciate your path, and i appreciate the dangers you mention (though they happen to others as well…and without UR, some totally give up on the faith…which has to be worse than simply liberalising bits of it, or getting a few things “wrong” - if i’m even qualified to judge that, including if i get angry at Calvinism and Arminianism).
The Unitarian Universalist church that exists today is actually a combination of the old American Universalist denomination and the Unitarians .
The old Universalist Church was soundly based in biblical doctrine and actually saw itself as a kind of improved Calvinism – with God predetermining all to salvation.
The Universalist Church of America was always socially liberal – promoting the education of girls and the abolition of slavery in a big way for instance.
I understand it always had both Trinitarians and Unitarians within its fold (at a time when mainstream Unitarians were actually very bible centred in their faith and many were not Universalists but annihilationist).
It was a very American phenomenon. It gave many a refuge from the TULIP Calvinism that dominated American Puritanism. In the UK and Europe no separate Universalist denominations have developed because universalism was never completely proscribed as a position within the mainstream Churches. The Universalist Church in America actually died out because the mainstream Churches in America softened on their teachings on ECT and so a separate denomination was no longer required. In the end the remnant Universalist Church died merged with the Unitarians – a far larger body – because of its dwindling numbers (although many opposed this merger).
The erosion of a specific Christine identity for the UCC is due to its unmitigated pluralism. There were some pluralists in the latter years of the Universalist Church – but they were few. It’s actually a phenomenon that seems to have swept Unitarianism because of the influence of Transcendentalism.
Surely the two are connected? We have faith in God because God is a God of blessing and love. And we have faith in a God who understands humanity and is interested in and loves his children because of the Godman – the Incarnate Christ. At some stage most people have to hold onto the idea that God has faith in us even when our faith in God seems weak – ‘Lord I believe – help thou mine unbelief’. Otherwise the danger is that our faith in God’s sovereignty can seem like work of will rather than a gift with which we collaborate I guess.
I was just thinking Awakeningalethia –and this is from somebody who has not been directly influenced by Calvinism in any shape or form and doesn’t wish to be offensive – Paul’s vision of the tine when God will be All in All and the powers will be subject to Christ perhaps belongs not so much to faith as to hope. It is the eschatological hope of a time when the ‘Powers’ – specifically those human structures of power such as the Roman empire and the synagogue courts that persecuted the young Church - will be subject to Christ’s rule of love. It is equivalent to Julian of Norwich’s assertion that ‘All shall be well and all manner of things shall be well’ despite appearances. I think for Paul our faith – our trust - is primarily in Christ crucified and risen; and this is the sign of paradox and contradiction concerning the Powers of this world and their ‘relativity’. It is in this sign of strength made great in weakness that we can hope that the Powers of this world will be overcome and faith and hope having served their purpose can give way to the Love that abides.
That’s how I see it anyway.
Love
Dick
Hi, everyone. On days when I remember to bring my computer to class and use the forums as a means of procrastination, everyone stays quiet. But whenever I leave for class and fail to bring a computer along with me, I always return to such interesting thoughts! A watched pot never boils, I guess!
Aletheia, I think many of your initial anxieties mirrored my first concerns. When I first came to UR, I feared being lured in by a dangerous doctrine-- so much so that it took me over a year to even Google universal salvation. Of course, those sorts of doubts faded as I became more convinced of UR’s biblical truth, and as I met goodhearted and committed Christians here who embrace both Christ’s sacrifice and the salvation of all. The more I think about it, the more I realize that it is not so much a disproving of universalism that I fear-- It is the very act of researching itself. The doctrine of ECT caused me so much psychological and emotional torment in the past, as I suspect it did for many people here, that most of my Bible study time was devoted to pouring over a few select verses, terrorized. I do not quite know how to study the Bible with an absence of this fear, as I am so conditioned to it.
At first, I was surprised by your advice to act as if hell is eternal, but I think I get the major point of your saying that. Indeed, I could never act as if I believed in ECT, because then my mouth’s profession would be very different than my heart’s conviction. But I think I understand you as saying that, despite continuing to believe in UR, it is constructive to focus our faith on the gifts and tasks at-hand. Believing in God only to receive heaven would be like marrying for the sole purpose of gaining a life insurance premium.
I do think that the argument that “God is love” summarizes our hope in UR better than any other three words could. I don’t think that sort of love-- all-abiding, supernatural love-- is what we refer to in order to justify our sin. “God is love” is quite different than “God is tolerant.” It is precisely because “God is love” that both UR and constructive punishment exists-- why hell is a refining fire, like that of Queen Grandmother Irene’s in GMac’s The Princess and the Goblin.
I never got to thank you for that wonderful thought, Sherman. It makes a whole lot more sense, as do other ECT “proof-texts,” when taken in a universalist context. It is wonderful realizations like that why I wish I did not have such a fearful knee-jerk reaction to studying the Bible. But time, I think (and hope) will bring healing to that.
Love and thanks to all here,
Kate
Wow, well I didn’t think my post would get such varied reactions. Thanks everyone for commenting.
Johnny, I had not intention to be uncharitable, but my main concern was over the use of “God is love” as an argument for UR. Though it is support for it, I don’t see it as primary, every true believer throughout history has seen God as love, most were ECT. Also you ignored my thought on conditional immortality, is it impossible for God to be love and still put out of existence those who refuse to repent? He did so before in the Scriptures. Just some thoughts Johnny, not meant to personally attack. But emotion I have found is a very unstable thing to base belief on. People get angry when you tell them their sin is not acceptable before God, would we just allow their emotions to decide what is right and wrong? We’re flawed and sinful my friend, without a new heart and the Holy Spirit filling us and enabling us to live right we’re in big trouble.
Corpse I don’t see arrogant assertions as the same thing as reproving Pharisees. Yes, some need to be corrected for their abuse and mistreatment of the flock. But when those who claim to follow an all-loving God, lash out at traditionalist believers simply because they believe what we once did, that’s unacceptable. During the early church universalists, annihilationists, and infernalists all were able to get along and respect the others’ conclusions. Why can’t we? Now if someone is being terrorized by another with the threat of hell, then that is wrong and should be rebuked. Also it is quite plain to me that the first thing that goes during someone’s rejection of Christianity is hell. Many cults and and liberal theologians deny hell’s existence (something many Universalist’s don’t), but what sets us apart from them? That we believe in the inspiration of the Scriptures, that we still believe in the Triune Godhead, that we are new creations who follow Christ and love God. Maybe you personally have not seen those who embrace UR slide toward the rejecting of the Christian faith, I have.
I want to thank you Sobernost for that interesting bit of history. Its good, because it makes me re-think my view of universalism leading that church of the 19th-20th century to abandon the Christian faith. When I said, " True Christianity is about God’s glory, not man’s happiness", I immediately followed that up with that our happiness will indeed happen (and it won’t be slefish happiness either). The focus we are to have is glorifying God, the byproduct of doing so will be mankind’s happiness. Also I agree with you, faith is to be in Christ, our hope is in what is to come, this faith though is the reality of things hoped for, meaning our faith in Christ gives us hope (love is the source of both, it believes and hopes always). Romans 8 is a great chapter talking about the hope of all creation (I believe this includes mankind).
Finally Kate I ask your forgiveness if my post was confusing or my thoughts unclear. I do not think you should treat hell as eternal, my only point was to relieve you of fear. I realized myself that I too was once in the same place you are, convinced of UR’s validity, but unable to find peace. Back then I wanted UR to be true, I needed it to be true. When I surrendered my desire to God, put my focus back on Him and His glory, well my peace returned, my joy in the Scriptures came back, and I didn’t think much on UR for quite some time. Now I do not need UR to be true, I simply believe it is true. If it turns out otherwise I am not afraid, my faith is in the judge of all the earth, not the form of judgement. But I believe the judge’s verdict is clear, His heart revealed, love is clearly His glory, to love Him and one another. (As I said “God is love” is support of UR, just not alone convincing enough). Based upon His promises and His Word He will faithfully accomplish His good pleasure, His desire to save all.
Hello aletheia
Thanks for your gracious response to my somewhat prickly post . I understand where you’re coming from, I think. But for me, your initial argument for Christianity being all about God’s glory sailed a mite too close to Calvinism. Calvinism is a doctrine of devils, and a logical train wreck to boot. Despite their much vaunted claim to ‘give God the glory’, Calvinists demean and blaspheme him with their belief in predestination.
As Thomas Talbott has pointed out, it is as meaningless to say that God loves the reprobate as to say he does not love the elect. Under Calvinism, God does not love some – if not most – people, hence he is not love. Further, I don’t think God gives a tinker’s cuss about his own glory. (Which is not to say we shouldn’t, of course.)
As I said, I just think you’re wrong to downgrade the ‘God is love’ argument for UR to the extent you do. Yes it may have an emotional component – and like I say, I have no problem with that. But the philosophical arguments in favour of UR are, for me, convincing - logically watertight. Of course, if the Bible taught against them we would have a problem. But as we all know, it does not.
Whether they are ‘more important’ than scriptural arguments is a moot point, I would say. For surely everything that we believe about God we do so for a variety of reasons, on the basis of a range of different types of evidence? I hold a pretty low view of Scripture, so I do not assign primacy to scriptural arguments - at least not as a matter of course.
Conditional immortality doesn’t have any bearing on the subject as far as I am concerned. Yes, if you interpret Scripture literally - which I don’t, obviously - God may have put people out of their earthly existence. But as a Universalist, I believe it would be a logical impossibility for him to do so eternally, given his nature as love.
All the best
Johnny
I’m so glad of that Awakening The decline of the universalist denomination happened a long time before the merger of the remnant with the Unitarians and the story is an interesting one and the reasons for the decline even more complex than I’ve outlined. I found 'The Universalist Movement in America 1770-1880 to be excellent (well it filled me in on a lot of unknowns as a Brit )
I too experienced some fear when first studying UR. I was somewhat afraid of being led astray, but years ago I underwent another significant change in theology. I came to the place where the proverb “Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and rely not upon your own understanding”, this proverb had great meaning for me. I trusted the Lord to show me what was true, to lead me how he wanted me to go. I came to trust God go guide me, to lead me into truth, to answer my prayers and to open my mind to understand scripture and Him.
Another thing I was afraid of was the rejection that I believed I would recieve if I came to accept UR, loosing the respect and love of many people I love and respect. It was a very high cost, almost even costed me my marriage. Coming to believe in UR I was excluded from my local fellowship, asked to resign from the board of a missionary ministry I was on, almost lost my full-time job in another ministry, lost several close friends, and the emotional distress was so bad at one point I was concerned I’d loose my mind. I was so distraught, angry at the illogical, unloving, and disrespectful way I’d been treated that I spent 3 days in the woods fasting and praying just to keep from loosing my mind, and giving in to rage. It was a tough time. But one must be true to one’s self even if it upsets everyone else.
It’s been a challenging few years, long winter, dark night of the soul, but I can see the day dawning and feel spring coming. God is doing some new things in my life and family, and I’m glad. The only way to experience ressurection is to first die!